It is currently Fri May 24, 2013 9:00 am



Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ] 
 Binaural Audio 
Author Message
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:58 pm
Posts: 269
@Palmer
I read that 3-D Audio Primer by Aureal Corporation link you posted, very interesting read.

@ Cyber Sometimes more isn't always better, if you haven't already, I suggest you read the document PlamerTech posted a link to further up this thread, it should explain why we only need 2 speakers to achieve 3D surround sound, after all we only have 2 ears. Sure 5.1 is much better/more immersive than standard stereo left right format (which is only one dimensional) but this does not limit stereo headsets to non 3d sound. What I am talking about is Binaural not Stereo, and no games that I am aware of implement a Binaural Headphone mode, the best thing you can do for comparison is listen to the Virtual barber shop link i put in the first post on this thread with a stereo pair of headphones (listen with your eyes closed) you will see what true surround is and this is possible to do in games and virtual environments with the proper processing of the sound on the software side. I dont think its necessary to have extra speakers in a headset to complicate things (and make them more expensive) when 2 will do the job, sure if you are talking speakers in a room the more speakers you have the better the surround, but in a head set it is another story because the speakers are in a fixed position relative to your ears and if the sound engine is complex enough it can emulate binaural sound.

But that being said at this point in time the game sound engines are not complex enough and the attempts to emulate surround (Dolby headphone) or binaural (Creative CMSS-3D) in these engines seem to destroy the sound quality so 5.1 is the best option at this time especially if the Psyko Carbon has good sound quality as well as sound localisation, at least untill such time as seanny gets his sound engine perfected and into the mainstream :)

_________________
Current System:
3x 23" Passive 3D Monitors in 3D Vision Surround, Novint Falcon, 3rd Space Gaming Vest, ButtKicker, Razer Hydra, Logitech G25.
Previous 3D Systems:
Viewsonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector, Vuzix VR920, 24" Alienware and 22" Samsung 3D Vision Monitors, eDimensional 3D Glasses with 19" CRT Monitor


Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:28 am
Profile
Cross Eyed!

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:53 pm
Posts: 168
Location: Sweden
that virtual barber shop sounds just like regular stereo to me. sure i can hear him walking around, but I'm never sure if he's in front of me or behind. I'm using regular in-ears.


I'm sure it's very good for a recording, but compared to rendered stereo in a game, it's not groundbreaking or anything, apart from the obvious advantage of it being, well, real so you get different sound "moods" as the sound scatters differently from different places in the room


i have to say i think 5.1 headsets are better(never tried though ;) ), because they'll fit anyone's ears. Instead of emulating a direction based on a general hearing profile, they're physically sending the sound wave from that direction and letting the ears do the rest.

_________________
Image
"This is great!"


Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:57 pm
Profile
Certif-Eyed!

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:11 am
Posts: 635
Location: Spain
AntiCatalyst wrote:
that virtual barber shop sounds just like regular stereo to me. sure i can hear him walking around, but I'm never sure if he's in front of me or behind. I'm using regular in-ears.
Something like that happened to me the first time I heard that video. I was at my job place. It turned out that the crappy realtek sound of that computer was outputting only the left channel through both left and right channels. When I fixed the problem and heard it properly it was such a shock that now I'm a believer forever more.

_________________
Zalman Trimon ZM-M220W / Acer H5360 with Another Eye2000 shutters / nVIDIA GTX285


Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:25 pm
Profile
Cross Eyed!

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:53 pm
Posts: 168
Location: Sweden
That's not it :) i should clarify.. i can pinpoint his direction, but that direction could either be in front of me or behind me.

_________________
Image
"This is great!"


Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:39 pm
Profile
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 10041
Yes, I have heard that barbershop clip from a while back (but I listened again just to refresh my memory). Yes, it is pretty amazing. And the matchbox clip that was also posted was good too. That one actually had sound from above and below, which I don't think is possible with stereo (at least I've never heard it before). But what I don't understand is why game developers aren't doing this already. That Aureal document was from the 90's. They've known about this for quite some time. Is there just not a big enough market? Do people not care about audio (or have a "good enough" approach). Or is this the case where they just hate anything with 3D in the name? 3D audio!?! Must be a gimmick!

Either way, I still have high hopes for that Psyko headset. Might just order it when I get paid tomorrow. If it sucks, whatever. I'll just sell it on eBay. I have to imagine its better than the $50 stereo headphones I'm using now. I am talking about out-of-box with existing PC games. Not including whatever theoretical quality you could get if there was a binaural audio driver for gaming (of if developers supported it natively).

_________________
Image


Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:39 pm
Profile
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)

Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:06 pm
Posts: 1611
People do not care/understand it, so the market is not that big. Furthermore, of the pool of people who DO care, very few of them are qualified to actually implement it. I don't think there are enough people with the right skills in the right places. And aside from that, the entire sound industry has focused on speakers, from stereo setups to surround sound. Music, movies, and often videogames are almost always mixed with speakers in mind, not headphones.

I mean, imagine how easy it would be to record movies with binaural audio, using a dummy head. If they cannot be motivated to do something that basic, then how can we expect a much harder to accomplish software solution?


Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:18 pm
Profile
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:58 pm
Posts: 269
I think people don't care because they don't know any better, most people have not experienced high quality sound (especially in headsets) most people probably assume their iPod headphones are good quality.

Cyber if you give the Psyko Carbon the thumbs up I might get one and build a DIY HMD around it using the HV056WX1 LCD screens for a High FOV HD HMD with surround sound. Just trying to decide weather or not to get the parts to do this or a 3D projector first :?

_________________
Current System:
3x 23" Passive 3D Monitors in 3D Vision Surround, Novint Falcon, 3rd Space Gaming Vest, ButtKicker, Razer Hydra, Logitech G25.
Previous 3D Systems:
Viewsonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector, Vuzix VR920, 24" Alienware and 22" Samsung 3D Vision Monitors, eDimensional 3D Glasses with 19" CRT Monitor


Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:38 am
Profile
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)

Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:06 pm
Posts: 1611
If 3D is important to you, I think a projector might make more sense. These DIY HMD projects never go as planned, so if you are counting on it being your main 3D solution, I think going for something more reliable makes sense.

In the meanwhile, you can watch all of us spin our wheels figuring this out! :lol:


Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:53 am
Profile
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 10041
Dude, get the projector. All this DIY stuff is more like a hobby than anything. It shouldn't be your main setup.

Also, I just bought the Carbon headset. I hope its all that its cracked up to be. It certainly better be for that price, OMG!

And, yeah, most people probably just don't know what they are missing. Same with stereo 3D visuals, I guess.

_________________
Image


Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:13 pm
Profile
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:58 pm
Posts: 269
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/500 ... dio-system
Quote:
Conclusion

So what are we left with? To be frank, I was really looking forward to this headset, and was hoping to be blown away. The theory seemed interesting and sound, and Psyko definitely fulfilled on the directional aspect of this headset, like I said, it is an improvement over the conventional 5.1 headsets in my opinion directionality wise. And looking at the previews of the headset, I thought “Hey, with the drivers being in the headband, this can solve the…stigma 5.1 headsets have had with the low sound quality from cramming smaller drivers into the ear cups, since you could fit larger drivers into the headband, but then Psyko has taken a turn into a stigma of their own with lower sound quality due to the distortion the sound gets when it passes through those wave guides. So as I was saying, with all of this said, what do we have? As it currently stands, I would not choose this headset over the other ones currently in my arsenal. I just don’t think the sound positioning compensates enough for the loss of quality when compared to normal stereo headsets and Dolby Headphone, especially when factoring in the prices. At 300 dollars, I wanted the Psyko 5.1 to deliver better audio quality and better directional positioning over conventional 5.1 headsets, and I only found it delivered one of those. However, I do believe that the concept Psyko has created is an idea worth investing in. The directional aspect is down, but in future products, I think Psyko just needs to do some research on the distortion of sound when it’s going through those waveguides, and perhaps find a way to distort the sound right out of the gate so when that distorted sound goes through the waveguides, it sort of gets distorted…back into a viable sound…if that makes any sense. It does recreate a 5.1 system quite well…but it’s not the Polk Audio 5.1 quality I was hoping for. But give the company and the concept time to grow, and hopefully we can expect a better performing implementation for a more consumer friendly price.


Quote:
I'm always interested in your reviews Steggy. I read this but didn't have the chance to truly reply until now.

I was on a massive quest to find headphones that sounded like real surround, and I have tested so many that I lost count. Out of all the ones I tested/own, the K701 (with Dolby Headphone) is easily the ones that blew me away the most.

As for true 5.1 headphones, I had the Tritton AX Pros, and was in awe at how... mediocre they were, even in giving you that surround sound feel. I bought them after reading so many reviews about how insane their surround sound positioning is, when in fact, I find the good old KSC75 to pull surround sound off better, lol.

I was interested in the Psyko, just out of morbid curiosity, so thanks for your thoughts on them. At least I know I wasn't really missing anything.

Try out the K701 or K702 with something like the Mixamp. You'll be in awe out how well they pull off surround sound.


Quotes from the above link which is a review of the original Psyko 5.1 Headphones over on the Head-fi fourms, sounds like they have good directional sound but bad soud quality, sorry Cyber this info is bit late for you but hopefully the new model Psyko Carbon you got addresses this sound quality issue the original set had. Otherwise it seems a good set of stereo headphones and dolby headphone surround emulation is the way to go on this for now.

_________________
Current System:
3x 23" Passive 3D Monitors in 3D Vision Surround, Novint Falcon, 3rd Space Gaming Vest, ButtKicker, Razer Hydra, Logitech G25.
Previous 3D Systems:
Viewsonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector, Vuzix VR920, 24" Alienware and 22" Samsung 3D Vision Monitors, eDimensional 3D Glasses with 19" CRT Monitor


Wed May 11, 2011 4:36 am
Profile
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!

Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:58 pm
Posts: 269
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/534 ... -headphone

Here is an interesting write up (again on head-fi) comparing a bunch of stereo headphones using dolby headphone 5.1 emulation and the relative sound/directional quality.

_________________
Current System:
3x 23" Passive 3D Monitors in 3D Vision Surround, Novint Falcon, 3rd Space Gaming Vest, ButtKicker, Razer Hydra, Logitech G25.
Previous 3D Systems:
Viewsonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector, Vuzix VR920, 24" Alienware and 22" Samsung 3D Vision Monitors, eDimensional 3D Glasses with 19" CRT Monitor


Wed May 11, 2011 4:51 am
Profile
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)

Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:06 pm
Posts: 1611
I owned a K701, and I currently own UR40s, AD700s, RE0s, and while I do not own the KSC75, I do own Koss PortaPros, which use the exact same driver. I usually use my AD700s for gaming because, like he said, they have a HUGE soundstage. They lack in bass, yes, but mine are pretty heavily modded to add a bit of thump to them. That, along with the fact that I run them out of a FiiO E5 amplifier with hardware bass boost enabled, and I could not ask for a better gaming headset. They are large, but all that goes to being VERY comfortable, and they are actually very lightweight. Here are some pics of mine, done some costmetic upgrades as well:
Image
Image
Image

You can get them at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CM ... B000CMS0XU

But eBay is probably a better bet. Go for a used pair, because some of the new ones are actually fakes. The K701 is nice, but I do not really like the soundstage as much, the AD700 is the soundstage match for an HMD with 120 FOV. :P Anyhow, that is my little rant on headphones. :lol:


Wed May 11, 2011 12:44 pm
Profile
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 10041
@mAchiNE: Well, I've been using the Psyko Carbon headset for about a week now. Its not as good as I hoped it would be, but it still works nice. In the games that support it, the surround sound is a clear advantage and really adds to the immersion. So far the best game I've played with it is Metro 2033, it really sounds great. Left4Dead also works well. Its pretty easy to tell what direction sounds are coming from, and you can quickly turn a shoot. So that part does work as advertised, though its not always as immersive as I would hope. The amp also provides a nice level of bass, which makes the gunshots feel more real. However, the overall sound quality is not that great. Even a cheap pair of $40 stereo headphones will probably sound better in general. Sounds on the Carbon are very hollow and tinny at times, and voices can sound muffled. At first this was really annoying, but I have gotten used to it. So I still like them, and I think they do enhance the gaming experience. I'm just not sure they were worth $200, especially since they are crap for anything but 5.1 gaming. Maybe I will writea more detailed review when I get a chance, but thats the gist of it.

_________________
Image


Wed May 11, 2011 11:32 pm
Profile
One Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:27 am
Posts: 13
Has anyone tried the Aureal A3D cards? I used it with Half-Life 1 and mods and it was pretty amazing. With headphones you can tell where a sound is coming from in full 360 3d, above or below. I got pretty good at lobbing molotovs and stuff over walls/onto roofs at someone moving around. They were always surprised at how accurately they could be heard. :D When I built my last PC I was trying to get another A3D card but Aureal apparently went bankrupt from lawsuits by Creative and the drivers aren't supported anymore. I haven't heard of (or heard) anything as good as the A3D tech, except for that barbershop video.

There's a bit more on them here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aureal_Semiconductor

Hopefully seanny's work pans out! I guess beware of Creative and be legally prepared for anything. :P Maybe some kind of open source 3d audio engine could be made.


Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:52 am
Profile
Sharp Eyed Eagle!

Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am
Posts: 423
Rather than festooning your head with an array of tiny speakers, it seems that in-ear monitors and a HRTF are more effective, possibly with some additional user tuning to the HRTF to deal with minor variations in the pinnae. Binaural audio does not work (or at least, barely works) with over-the-ear headphones, as you're trying to pass audio recorded inside virtual/actual pinnate through your own pinnate again, resulting in unpredictable weirdness occurring to the sound.

Most sound cards and on-motherboard sound chips (AC97 and HD-Audio/Azalia), and every one I've encountered in the last half-decade or so, have implemented an in-driver HRTF filter, that takes multichannel sound as an input and gives you a very good facsimile of binaural audio. Many games have a 'headphone' mode in the sound settings that often (but unfortunately not always) means HRTF. Games using OpenAL can also be used to provide true 3D HRTF (IIRC, includes Unity, Unreal 3, and ID Tech 4).


Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:41 am
Profile
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:24 am
Posts: 209
I came across an open source library to render binaural stereo. I made a post on the R&D board - viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15307


Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:43 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 31 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by STSoftware.