Headplay & seeing double

Post by **mystd** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:52 am

I just got my Headplay and however I adjust it I see a double imgage (like when you'r tired). I just can't get it to be 1 picture, can this be a defect or could it be my astigmatism? But a friend tried it and his eyes are 100% ok and he can't get it right either.

Post by **mystd** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:55 am

I'm glad you got your info now I just need mine T_T I always wanted a HMD now I got my first and it dosn't work how it should.......

Post by **PalmerTech** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:53 pm

Do you have glasses to correct your astigmatism? The Headplay adjustments only compensate for focus problems, I am not sure if you will be able to use it without glasses. (Especially because the exit pupil, the area your eye has to be within to work, is very small)

Post by **mystd** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:15 pm

No change with and without glasses. The glasses correct my astigmatism. I've testet it with several friends 4 can use it correctly and me and one of my friends can't.
This is so very frustrating.......

My mother has astigmatism too I let her use it and it worked for her fine......
She said it my have something to do with my dyslexia and I get the feeling it's not about my eyes but how my brain percives the images.

Post by **cybereality** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:43 pm

When I first got my Vuzix Wrap 310, my brother had this problem. I could see the HMD fine, but when he used it he saw a double image. I had him try it a couple of times with different videos but he couldn't get it to merge into a single image. Then a week later I had him try it again, but this time he could see one image. Not sure what changed, but he did eventually get it to work. He doesn't wear glasses or anything, his vision is fine. I think its just a mental thing. You can maybe try practicing with some parallel and crosseyed 3d images to train your eye muscles. I think you can get it to work if you try.

Post by **mystd** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:18 am

practiced crosseye works really well but headplay still the same T_T

Post by **Fredz** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:45 am

Stupid question maybe, but what is your interocular distance ? And what's its value for the other people you know that can see in 3D with your device ?

Post by **mystd** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:14 am

I'm nearsighted, left eye 0.75 and right is 1. Dono if the mesuring is international I am german. The right eye is the one with astigmatism. I've used the tutorials at http://www.vision3d.com/frame.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and I get the "Or does one thumb appear faint -- like a ghost image". So I'll contact a doctor next week.

Post by **Likay** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:04 am

What Fred means is if the distance between your eyes and others are close to each other. If the device matches the others eyes and the eyedistance is less for you, you'll will have huge problems seeing 3d because the eyes have to converge outwards.
The above test shows both eyes appearing sort of faint as well as the thumbs since they're only visible in one eye. If they appear "different faint" you might have a focusproblem.
Extra nfo: I have astigmatic errors on both eyes myself. It's not big but enough to see 4 headlights in each eye when meeting a car in the dark. There are no problems seeing stereo-3d though. I have no idea where the limits for being successful in seeing stereo-3d are though.
The human senses for seeing depth are quite a few where stereopsis is only one of them. Since you're able to watch crosseyed images and seeing depth it should only be a matter of adjusting the device. In worst case focusdifference between the eyes could interfere too much for a successful experience. In this case i believe that an extra correctional lense is needed.

Post by **mystd** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:12 am

My PD (pupil distance, should be interocular distance) is 65mm(32&33), for the others I'll have to ask them if they know. They have simmilar values (inbetween 60 to 70). (mm = Millimeters)

I see the pictures like this:

Post by **3dvison** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:24 pm

Are your eyes close enough to the optics, so that one eye is not looking across to the other eyes image ?

If that is even possible..LOL I do not have a Headplay, just thought I would throw an idea out and see if it sticks.

Could the unit just be broken ?

Post by **PalmerTech** » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:40 pm

You know, it could be broken. There are a few threads on the Headplay forum like this, apparently the optics being out of alignment was fairly common. The suggest lightly twisting the frame to see if anything changes.

Post by **mystd** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:10 am

But it works with 5 others just me and another friend can't see it as 1 picture. About it beeing broken when I use the sliders if they near the 75 mark the part of the pictures are not visible anymore (black). Is that normal?

The headpplay forums are down btw.

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:13 pm

mystd wrote:practiced crosseye works really well but headplay still the same T_T

Well actually, I think it is parallel that is more important for using an HMD. Try to see if you can see these images in 3D:

Market_parallel.jpg

Side_Street_parallel.jpg

You can click on them to see the full size (which I have sized to make it easier to view). You can also save to your computer if that helps. All you have to do is relax your eyes or try try to focus on something in the far distance. For example, if you have a glossy computer monitor: start by focusing on the monitor, then your reflection on the glass. This will show you the direction your eyes need to go in to see parallel 3D. Then if you just relax and try to merge the images, they should eventually fuse into one. Cross-eye is a whole lot easier, but parallel is not too hard with a little practice. I think if you try this a few times you should be able to get it to work on the Headplay. Or, maybe like my brother, the problem will magically fix itself.

Post by **mystd** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:19 pm

I've practiced prallel for 30 min. but I can't make 4 then 3 pics like with cross eye, my focus just shifts from the left to the right eye and back, the pic gets blurry and stuff like the colors pulsing/changing in intesivity. It's getting late here, I'll try again tomorrow.

I've practiced another 30 min. not working how long does it normally take? Is there some eye practice I can do?

Post by **3dvison** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:52 pm

Do you have to work at or learn how to see 3D on a HMD, the same way you do for cross eyed pictures ?
I thought the whole point of an HMD was to get easy 3D that you do not have to learn how to see ...?

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:24 pm

mystd wrote:I've practiced prallel for 30 min. but I can't make 4 then 3 pics like with cross eye, my focus just shifts from the left to the right eye and back, the pic gets blurry and stuff like the colors pulsing/changing in intesivity. It's getting late here, I'll try again tomorrow.

Parallel viewing can be difficult if you are already used to cross-eye. I actually tried for many years before one day I just "got" it. It might help to try with some smaller images. There are some on the bottom of this page that should be easy: http://www.vision3d.com/sgphotop.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Just try to relax your eyes, it will happen naturally. You can also try focusing on your reflection in the monitor, or even using the piece of paper if you have to. Just put the paper on the screen right in the middle of the images (so each eye has its own image) and then place your nose on the other edge of the paper. This will be pretty close to what an HMD is like. Then when you can do those little images, try to ones I posted before and see if you can do them. If you can, then try the HMD.

3dvision wrote:Do you have to work at or learn how to see 3D on a HMD, the same way you do for cross eyed pictures ?
I thought the whole point of an HMD was to get easy 3D that you do not have to learn how to see ...?

For most people they will be able to see an HMD with no special training or effort. Personally I have never had this issue with any HMDs I have tried. However, it seems some people do have this problem even if they have perfect vision. For example, my brother had this problem with the Vuzix Wrap 310 although he had no issue with the Zalman 3D monitor or with cross-eye 3D images. So it seems specific to HMDs. I imagine it is an issue that could be solved by training your eyes. If you otherwise have good vision, I don't see why viewing an HMD would not be possible.

Post by **3dvison** » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:52 pm

Just like people are right or left hand dominant, could it be that he and the other person having this problem have a much more dominant left or right eye ?
The other five people might have dominant eyes that foucus at a distance that is not all that different from their less dominant eye ? Which could be the norm.

I still think there is some kind of problem with the unit itself..Just a guess.
It just sounds like a miss alinment of the optics or the screen that is letting the right and left image mix somehow..???
Even if it is only seen by two of seven people who use it.
The eyes have it...LOL

Post by **mystd** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:54 pm

I was able to do the Frankfurter Experiment at least. There is written: That's because your eyes can angle inward much more than outward.
Does that mean I can force my eyes outward? Or do i need to relax and meditate etc

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:07 pm

If you can do the Frankfurter Experiment you should be able to see those 2 images I posted earlier in the thread. Maybe try doing them again. It may be easier to try them just in the thread (and not clicking on them to make them bigger). Honestly I am not even 100% sure that will help you with the Headplay but its something to try.

Post by **mystd** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:15 am

Still can't get it to work I'll try to print it on a foil. Perhaps my subconsciousness won't accept to view someting in a distance if there isn't anything.

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:07 am

mystd wrote:Still can't get it to work I'll try to print it on a foil. Perhaps my subconsciousness won't accept to view someting in a distance if there isn't anything.

Did you try using the sheet of paper (a postcard works good too)?

Post by **mystd** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:59 am

Just used my crt so far.

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:51 am

No, I meant using a postcard to divide the image on the screen so each eye can only see one view. This makes it a little easier to focus, since you don't have to deal with seeing 3 or 4 images overlapping. It also eliminates the chance that you will start going cross-eyed by accident. Basically, you just take a postcard (piece of paper or whatever) and place one edge on the screen, right on the line dividing the left/right views. Then place the other edge on your nose. Each eye will only see one view (similar to an HMD). Now it is very clear if you are making progress when adjusting the angle of your eyes, as you will see the 2 images getting closer together. At some point, after relaxing your eyes for a bit, they should snap into place and become one single 3D image. Let me know how that goes.

Post by **mystd** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:36 pm

Now thats interesting I used some cardboard and watched the doll face. (like 10 cm away from the crt) My brain tried to make one image out of it like the overlaying pictures I posted. One eye tried to dominate the other (the view shifted). Somtimes I could see it as on picture but I couldn't hold it for long. (just some ms). I cut a small piece of the cardboard and moved closer to the crt and it worked perfectly. (about 1 to 2 cm away from the crt)

After that I've tried headplay again and I think I know where the problem is. The pictures appear to be too far away and they don't have the same coloring like the right picture is a bit darker at the right side then the left pictures right side. Also the right picture seems to be tilted slightly I bent the case a bit it fixed it but it didn't fix my view. I would like to test a hmd with 2 screens perhaps those work better for me, sadly I don't know where to test it.....

My brain seems to have problems making one picture out of the 2 if there is too much cardboard or with the headplay black in the middle. The big pictures like the ally didn't work that way either. I think my subconsicoussness realizes that what I see are 2 different pictures that's why it won't put them together. My brain always tries to put them together but fails. When wearing headplay I feel like if I could use the sliders with a wider range I could make one picture out of it. If I use the sliders the pictures always appear like I posted but dependant on where the sliders are they are closer to one picture or further from each other but never 2 single pictures or 1 picture.

If I make the ally smaller it works better, I can see how my brain slowly puts the pictures together if there is too much detail though it takes forever and if I have to blink ur just move my pupil slightly it's gone and starts from the beginning.

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:57 pm

I don't know what to tell you man. It sounds like you either have an issue with your eyes themselves or some sort of mental road-block. Either way, I do not think it is a permanent or unsolvable problem. Maybe with better eye-glasses or mental training you will be able to use the HMD. You said you got the doll face to combine (even for a second) so that is promising news. The different coloring on the screens shouldn't be a big issue (and is probably not why you are having the problem). The screens on the Vuzix HMDs do the same thing and its fine. It would be helpful trying some other HMDs (like the Vuzix Wrap 310 which has comfortable optics) or, since that is probably not a feasible option, something cheap like the Viewmaster. You can get a package for under $20, like this one for Yellowstone National Park: http://www.3dstereo.com/viewmaster/svgs-5274.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Or if you are feeling cheap you could get this for $10 (although its clearly marketed for kids): http://www.3dstereo.com/viewmaster/vgs-4522.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . There are a whole lot of other gift sets listed here (all around $20 or less): http://www.3dstereo.com/viewmaster/view ... -sets.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Testing with the Viewmaster will let you know if you are at least able to view these kinds of materials and if maybe it is just something specific with the Headplay optics that you can't handle (or maybe even a defect in the hardware). In the mean-time I would suggest to keep trying to view those parallel images I posted (or the small ones on the same site with the doll face). It took me quite a while to learn parallel free-viewing, so don't be discouraged if you don't get it at first.

Also, have you had success with other stereo 3d methods? Have you gone to any recent 3D movies? Tried shutter-glasses? It would be helpful to know if you had any issues viewing other types of stereo content. Its not talked about much here, but somewhere in the vicinity of 5-10% of people can't see 3D at all. There were some reports that people previously diagnosed as being stereo-blind were able to finally view in 3D after many weeks (or months) of training. So I do not believe any such condition is permanent. From what you explain of what you see I don't believe you are stereo-blind, however I bring it up to illustrate that other people have overcome similar setbacks. I think if you stick with it you will be able to get something to work.

Also, can you explain why you bought the Headplay. Is it for movies, games? Console, PC? Are you wanting to use the 3D capabilities or are you fine using it in 2D? I may be able to suggest other devices that could be used instead of the Headplay.

Post by **mystd** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:43 am

I watched avatar in 3d in the local cinema and it worked 100%. A friend has a 100hz crt with shutter glasses I'll try that soon too.
I bought the headplay because it was perfect for me. Works for consoles & pc and has 3D. I wanted an allrounder for games & movies & hmd. I always wanted a hmd (for about 14 years now) but they were too expensive. The headplay was the first one where I though nice that one is perfect, it has a good price and I can use it for different things. Bought it couldn't await it and then it didn't work T_T

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:38 am

Yeah, I was the same way. I always wanted an HMD so bad, even as a kid back when the Victormaxx Stuntmaster was hot (of course I could never convince my mom to buy it, or the PowerGlove for that matter). I did at least get to try some of the 90's era headsets like the Virtuality Visette 2, Sony Glasstron and the original I-glasses. It wasn't until just a few short years ago that I was able to afford an HMD of my own, the Vuzix VR920. Then last year I picked up the Vuzix Wrap310, which I use just about daily. There certainly is an allure to head-mounted-displays that is maybe somewhat greater than the actual experience. But I like them. So I very much hope you will be able to figure out what the problem is.

Post by **mystd** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:38 pm

I always wanted the vfx 1&3d as a child ^-^

I tried the headplay again, noticed that my right eye sees less detail and the color is off too. The pictures look more red or greenish. I'll go to a optician tomorrow and bring my headplay with me, perhaps my right eye just needs better lense. XD

About your picture it always looks familiar but I can't remeber what it was. What is it from? It somehow reminds me of ghost in the shell but that wasn't it.

-I just remembered: Ergo Proxy!!! XD Cyberpunk FTW!!! ^-^

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:36 pm

Yeah, I love cyberpunk. GiTS is probably my favorite anime, but I wanted something a little more obscure for my avatar pic. Also, William Gibson rules! Neuromancer (and well the whole Sprawl trilogy) is classic. If you haven't read that yet, please do.

Also, you should try this test if you didn't already (similar to the Frankfurter Experiment):
http://www.mediacollege.com/3d/depth-pe ... /test.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also this site has a good test for binocular vision and fusion problems (which you may have):
http://www.eye-exercises-for-good-visio ... ision.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
However they charge $10 for the exercises they claim solve the problem. May be worth it if you trust the site.

If you do go to an optometrist, make sure they can do a binocular vision test (I imagine most can). Also, this site seems to have some interesting info on vision problems:
http://www.children-special-needs.org/questions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Remember, this could still be something specific to the Headplay HMD (either your particular unit, so the design itself). Since you said you could see 3D movies fine, then clearly you can see 3D and don't have any of the more serious binocular vision ailments. So it is possible maybe another type of headset would work. I can't say for sure where the problem lies, I'm not a doctor. Its also possible there is nothing wrong with your eyes, but there is some mental issue causing the problem, which could be fixed with exercises. I can't say for sure, maybe a doctor could. But I think if you stay determined you will get to the bottom of this.

Also, be sure to pick up that Viewmaster to try practicing with that and let me know how it goes. It may be easier than using the Headplay.

Post by **3dvison** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:58 pm

Hi mystd,
I was just wondering how the image looks in 2d mode on the Headplay ?
Are there any problems at all in 2D or just 3D ?

Post by **mystd** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:29 am

Just bought a Viewmaster in ebay for 6€ ^-^

2D & 3D are the same no difference. Pictures are like I posted.

Post by **3dvison** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:41 am

I know I sound like a broken record but if it's the same on 2D could it be there is just something wrong with your unit ?

I know the headplay only has one screen, so even in 2D, there would still be shuttering between each eyes image. But even with this shuttering, wouldn't the two images be the same for both the left and right eyes in 2D mode ?

It is just a guess on my part. But I think if you can exchange it for another unit you should, and than work from there if you still have the same problem.

Post by **mystd** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:52 am

@3dvision but how come only 2 ppl have problems with the unit and 10 others don't?

Post by **3dvison** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:55 pm

mystd wrote:@3dvision but how come only 2 ppl have problems with the unit and 10 others don't?

I see your point and I would say you are right.
BUT...
1 out of five dentist have rotten teeth..LOL

I was thinking, just in case your unit has an optical path that is only out of whack a very little bit, so small that only two out of twelve of you can see it. That it might be a good idea to get another unit to test ,if you can do it under warranty without cost to you.

Post by **mystd** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:29 am

I just got my Viewmaster and same problem like the headplay, so it's not the headplay unit. I also went to the optometrist and I need new glasses. I couldn't test the headplay there sadly. I'll go to a doctor next and then hopefully with new glasses it'll work.

Post by **3dvison** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:43 pm

Okay, so I was wrong.
And I bet your optometrist had perfect teeth also...LOL

Good to hear your getting to the bottom of this mystd.
What is it that the glasses will be correcting with your vison ?

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:18 pm

Well at least we know now that its not the Headplay unit, although its unfortunate that you can't see the Viewmaster. Hopefully the new glasses will be able to solve the problem. I would also suggest checking out some of those exercises I linked to earlier. Maybe they might help.

Post by **mystd** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:04 am

I just visited a doctor, he sais it's my brain not my eyes. But I somehow get the feeling he didn't test me well enough. It just took 3 minutes, so I'll get those new glasses as a test.

Post by **Likay** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:56 am

Since you say that you're able too see crosseyed images as well as cinema-3d properly this thread put's ants inside my head...? It's sounds like a focusproblem or that the headplayunit is wrongful set but after reading through the thread i'm really mixed up. Are you able to adjust it for the interocular distance? I have astigmatism (a lighter form though) on both eyes and i see 3d with or without glasses with no difference in effect/perception. Both eyes should see a somewhat clear image of the object though.