If bandwidth is the reason they couldn't do 2 complete images and had to resort to the "checkerboard" pattern, then I would love to see how a game would look at full resolution but half the number of frames displayed. If it is currently at 60 fPS at 120hz then I wonder how bad it would be at 30fps at the same 120hz where it would just display the same frames twice. I know some games do ok at 30fps especially if they use some post processing blurring techniques when there is a lot of motion.

I just can't deal with the lack of resolution of the checkerboard.

That is really weird as i haven't seen any issues with my DLP when using the checkerboard pattern, but I was always running 1080P. I did test in several movies and didn't notice any resolution issues either so i wonder if this is plasma specific?

will have to test some more later next week...

To thoise that have the TriDef Software and the DVD Player have you tried converting a 2d to 3d Movie with your 3D Setup?? If so How does it look??

I am going to get the TriDef Software and use it in my Home Theater but I need to get a HTPC 1st with a Quadro Card??


THNHX

the nephilim....hmm..i havent tried 2d->3d conversion yet...i got the "stereo player" by peter wimmer which should play everything, i might give thsi a try even if i dont expect it to be too great since its only "pseudo stereo"

chris,

actually resolution was not an issue....it was really more the ghosting, or the fact that those glasses are not the right ones. I contacted some german distributor and let them import the IOD glasses since i cant find those exact glasses here anywhere (in Germany), only the ED glasses and those obviously wont work 100%

And..yes..you have a point. This TV is supposed to make "tru 100hz" (or 120hz even)....and why shouldnt it be able to produce two real page flipped images? Maybe it works?

this TV and the picture quality blows us away....watching LOTR and whatever other movies in 720P...insane I hate too say it, i think this TV is almost too big for out tiny appt....but we'll get used to it This makes much more sense (IMHO) than spending a lot of $$$ on a HMD which disappoints then...as you said...we wanted a nice big TV anyway

The Stereo Player by Peter Only does Pure 3D it does NOT do the 2D-3D conversions. If you have the TriDef Media Player, that Player converts 2D to 3D "Psuedo" of course..

yes nephilim, i know.

I am unsure whether i should jump for the tridef-media player...and i am unsure whether the result would be ok. I was testing a bit with the trial/split screen....

Yes..Peter's player i use if i have a real 3D source, but it seems to be able to convert existing 3D in various other 3D formats, incl. Samsung checkerboards. Btw...AFAIK my TV should also support line interlaced, in addition to the checkerboard. This according to manual.

Btw. i remember thre ws some software (not the tridef on-the-fly 2D->3D media player) which did DVD conversion 2D->3D...but i really cant find it anymore. Any ideas?

trial versions of 2 diff programs for 2d->3d in real time:

http://old.really.ru/eng/dload.php?acti ... file_id=64


http://old.really.ru/eng/dload.php?acti ... file_id=60

unfortunately for me neither program worked properly

Hey guys

I'm about to purchase a samsung TV and just realized it has 3d support! I recently tried an IZ3D and was dissapointed with the quality compared to the cost so i sent it back and took the restocking hit.

But for these DLP's... isee that flex tried the ED glasses and wasnt impressed. I see that pixel67 uses crystal eyes, and then there are http://www.i-glassesstore.com/dlp3dsystems.html , and the starter pack from tridef.

I just realized this was possible...so I'm kinda scramblin to figure out which package to purchase, going to purchase the TV this weekend, maybe i can 3day the glasses in haha.

I assume tridef drivers are the best bet?

Also, all you use is a single VGA cable to the TV? i havent seen that covered either.

thanks guys sorry for the barrage

I wouldn't use the word best. "only" best fits the description. you have to pay per game.

I think you use a DVI cable with a DVI to HDMI adapter. It's written in the manual.

you mean from pc's dvi...to tv's hdmi?

because samsungs only have vga ports as their "pc" port

I think he means that your tv should have an hdmi exit, your pc a dvi exit, like so:

PC-DVI

|
|
V
DVI-hdmi adapter
|
|
|
V

your TV -hdmi

Well if you're in the US you can just buy the right glasses at http://www.i-glassesstore.com/dlp3dsystems.html
it can really be that the usual ED glasses wont work right and you need those IOD glasses. Those are also exactly the same which come with that "tridef 3d starter kit"...you even have them at BB, i saw them (I first have to iorder them from the states trough razor3d since we dont have those IOD glasses yet, only the ED glasses)

Also..in regards to "drivers are the best"...it depends on your OS...Nvidia 3d drivers dont support DLP (even if support is built in)...so under Vista you HAVE to use the tridef drivers....or under XP you use some older Nvidia drivers and you need "hacks" for the NV drievrs to get DLP support.

And for the DVI/HDMI...well VGA was a few years ago...if you get a new HDTV you want HDMI. HDMI is basically compatible with DVI (its the same digital signals).....VGA is analog, you dont want that. (Altough the TV also has a VGA input).
What you want is a DVI ---> HDMI cable/adapter.

What TV are you gonna get?

I still some people "pushing" 1080P sets.....but here my opinion:

1) There is literally only MARGINAL difference (if any) between watching a movie in 1080p and 720p. I read many,many reviews...and 1080p might be useful with MONSTERS 60" and up....but you're fully, fully fine with a 720p set.

2) people say they want a set which does 1920x1080 resolution for gaming. Its true that thsoe sets then will support a desktop-resolution at that size - and POSSIBLE also 1920x1080 for 3d gaming.

but this is a resolution which is just only halfway closely doable with a monster PC, having at least 2 high-end graphics cards in SLI...so add 3d.....in my opinion a practically total unuseable "dream resolution" which you just cant use in real life since the hardware requirements would be INSANE to drive any modern game at 1920x1080 resolution AND have them in 3D. (3d drivers also add a big overhead)

So...1360x720 is the next "lower" supported native HDTV resolution you would connect your PC to the set....which is reasonable and looks good....so you are (in my opinion) totally fine with a set which does "only" 1360x768...eg. "HD ready" compared to "full hd", costing you $1000 more and...just not useable.

well im an avid console gamer as well w/ them all so im going to get a 1080p anyway, but I understand what you are saying that nobody atm can really run 3d games at the max reso comfortably.

i was going to get the new samsung models i guess.. hl50a650 or the 56" version. I wanted the previous model which had an LED lamp instead w/ higher contrast ratio, but they are pretty much gone from all the retailers now.

so you mean http://www.i-glassesstore.com/dlp3d-wireless-1set.html then. I looked over the software and it looks fairly pointless, all i want to do is gaming. I dont see how the upconversion from 2d to 3d by the software would even be feasible, and there arent enough 3d movies to even warrant the software. I could just get the glasses/transmitter and a few game drivers and be done if im correct.

Hello,

i have a quick question for all who already own any "3d ready" DLP or Plasma using the Tridef drivers.

In the Tridef "Display Setup" Utility, there is this test-picture where you see circles on one eye and sqraes on the other eye.

Testing with my ED glasses (NOT the IOD glasses) i see definitly ok, one eye circles, the other eye squares.

But the circles/squares are not *all black* per eye...on each eye i also see the darker overlapping part, eg. if a circle overlaps a square i see this overlapping part as real black...and the rest of the object is more gray. So...left eye is supposed to see only squares....but i can also see parts of circles *IF they overlap into a square*. (or vice versa)




In the pic above it looks a bit extreme, i shot this thru the LCD shutter actually - you can see what i mean! You can see the slight ghosting too. But then i took this with a cheap cam right thru the glasses...

My question now is if this is normal and whether other people with those sets see the same, or whether they only see plain black squares one ONE eye and black circles on the other, and whether they see the overlapping parts as darker also.

This might help me to determine whether my glasses actually work ok.

G.[/url]

I can't speak for the DLP/Plasma's, but I do own a regular Samsung 32" LCD. I noticed it came preset with some wild default values for brightness/contrast. The backlighting can also be turned down which helps with the black levels. I spent about a half hour to an hour just messing with the video settings to get it right. Make sure this isn't just a color issue with the monitor. Also, it might just be the way it was supposed to be. I think I tried a similar test app (with shutter glasses on a crt) and there was overlapping like that. Naturally the overlapping parts would be darker, unless there was absolutely no ghosting.

I'd say ghosting (or crosstalk), too.
I think it would look similar on a CRT. It might be
- the glasses (hopefully)
- the speed of the plasma screen...

I'm not shure, how these screens are built, so I can't be shure... DLP however sends directly the light to the right spots witch mirrors, so it shouldn't have ANY ghosting, if the glasses work correctly...

i can only be sure if someone with the "right" glasses (the IOD glasses coming with the Tridef Starter Kit) tells me how it looks for them...otherwise i might run into danger to spend another $149 for a set of glasses....just to see that the result is the same. But..as in my pics, thats ABOUT what i see in reality also using the shutters, maybe the pics just pronounce it a lot, its not THAT extreme. But it's still a little off, IMHO.

I really thought/hope that at least this 3D implementation on the DLPs/Plasma do NOT have the annoyances like anaglyphs, like ghosting and similar....because thats exactly which makes this for me "not usable", like gaming etc.......thanks, then i rather play in 2D. But i still hope its only the glasses.

Flexy,

On my 42 inch Plasma using the correct shutter glasses I get a similar ghosting but not as extreme. I am assuming your pictures exagerate the effect. Also, the test screen showing black on white would be the worst case scenerio. In the NFS racing game I tried, there was minor ghosting on the brightest lines. I am assuming Plasmas suffer from some persistance just like CRT's do but about half as much.

Combing the slight ghosting with the loss of resolution it isn't the best solution but better than most.

I still prefer my DLP projector @85hz with the slight flicker on bright objects but it keeps its 1024X768 resolution.

Perhaps the DLP sets don't have any ghosting problem but they would still suffer from losing resolution and most setups can't handle 3d at the 1080P.

We still need a 3d 120hz ghost/flicker free solution at minimum 1024X768 and I don't see anyone making one.

If the HDMI port is limiting the bandwidth, then why don't they allow you to use the VGA input to take advantage of the 120hz at full resolution?

nope. with my eDims+ 19' CRT 1024*768@100hz I only get visible ghosting in extremely dark areas. in daytime/lit scenarios I get zero ghosting. zero.

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/samsu ... 1541.shtml

an interesting read i dugg up, nothing new per say but good for ppl in my position

If you run a DLP on 1080p with 3D, it HAS a better resolution than 1024x768. It is matematically
1920/2 = 960x1080 - which is slightly more than 1024x768. It can do 120hz in that mode as well and it should not ghost unlike the Plasmas. They are just like a DLP projector built into a box I think. That makes them so big (and heavy)...

the new glasses might be helpfull... especially, if you want multiple people to experience the 3D effect

Luke,

OF COURSE.

Except that thre is no way i can run ANY current game at 1920x1080 with any significant quality settings AND the enormous overhead eg. the tridef drivers add also.
I do not have a slow system...my Geforce 8800GTS eats anythign i throw at her and i play 1650x1080, 4xAA smooth like silk (except crysis with all settings at max ...but 1920x1080 is just not realistic, even for a "normal" high-end PC...it would need a hyper-ultra high-end PC and even THEN i want to see any current game run smoothly

Also...since i see it mentioned a few times:

guys, resolution is NO issue at all...if i'd to see pixelation and resolution issues i would say so


chris,

i found this test-picture

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/i-glasse ... -IMAGE.bmp
and it displays fine.

maybe it is really only a matter of the right brightness/contrast settings.

I dont think that either resolution OR flicker is an issue....in fact...there IS no flicker.

Also, after reading up a bit it is clear that neither LCDs, Plasmas AND DLPs are able to do interlace and therefore "real" page-flipping. This works only on CRTs. I also read that Plasma's response times are literally zero (eg. compared to LCDs).

Since that 3d system works different, it builds the stereo-picture in ONE frame (as far as i understand)...and then the internal electronics sync it somwhoe with the glasses...i dont think its a speed-issue or anything. Maybe its supposed to be like this.

If my current glasses would sync wrongly...eg. in the above test picture one eye would surely see what it's not supposed to see....but i can clearly distinguish the "L" and "R" per eye. So i assume that its working fine??!??!?!
And yes...the shots exaggerate a lot, i also used a flash

I have another question to you, chris:

If i turn on 3D, depending on the brightness setting of the set...i see that "colorful" snow which consists of a random grain of red/blue/green noise across the screen. I noticed it disappears if i go with brightness below 50. It is *almost* not visible with the shutters on, i still dont know whether its supposed to be like that...or if its brightness settings...or what to think about it. Do you get this also? Otherwise i dont have an explanation why the 3d setting would introduce that colored "snow".

G.

I'm purchasing a DLP this weekend, so i'm going to go ahead and order the http://www.i-glassesstore.com/dlp3d-wireless-1set.html

Seems very simple product to setup, hopefully i'll get a good result. IZ3D doesn't fit my tastes...not enough room and constant adjusting the convergene.

I'll let you know how it looks Flexy..although I have never tried shutterglasses or a projector so I won't be able to compare well. I've seen 3d movies and iz3d though, oh and Magic Carpet!

ill keep ya posted


edit: btw....all i need is just the glass/transmitter combo and the $5 game driver to get a game to run correctly right? looks like the software is just for movies and conversion and other things.

Why not just try a game or some stereo video and see if it works?

well i only have one 3D DVD for now (more coming)....and i tested WoW. But as said, i noticed the ghosting and was wondering how it is for others. Main reason is to determine whether my ED glasses are sufficient and whether the IOD glasses would give better results.

i think it may have a lot to do with the quality of the glasses as I don't recall seeing this during the setup of my dlp. i will check next week when i am back in town...

If it does the checkerboard pattern, then you lose both horizontal and vertical pixels so it would be 960/540.

The frame rates would be horrible too.

I get that also. I think it has to do with how plasma's generate variations in colors as well as some color effects you get with the alternate pixels flashing on and off for the left and right eyes. It doesn't show up with the glasses on playing games.

actually you need 'only' 2 pictures, so you need 'only' 2 pixels in Checkerboard to 'project' 1 pixel for each eye - so the resolution is only halfed. Because of the special arrangement of the pixels that is better for the eyes than interlaced. The 'lost' information are spread more widely all over the picture and not every second line.

@ system and 1080p: I think the best rig to output this would be a Core2Duo with7900GTX OC with Nvidia driver 'hacked'.
I'm not shure, wheter the gf7 can do such a resolution, but it might work fast for some games from last year... You could try Flatout2. It's nice with all the stuff flying around you in 3D.

I heard the DDD drivers are a little slow, so you might be faster with a GF7 actually

yes, you "lose" half width/height per eye...but its getting combined again. It's really not that big a deal.
What counts is that i still can game at 1360x760 which is a very reasonable resolution - and from looking at the image, even on a 50" i cant see any disadvantage in the fact that each checkboard is only half of this resolution!
Without ever having seen one, i can tell you for sure that the resulting picture/quality is WAY better than eg. having one of those HMDs which only makes 800x600 like the Z800. I think a DLP or Plasma, even "only" at 1360x768 would be a way better deal than a such a HMD with 800x600 and very little FOV which costs almost the same.

Another factor which i didnt even mention yet....is how the drivers/game implement their 3D...i also note eg. playing WoW that its not perfect all the time, this is also a driver issue.

Btw..if someone hs links/pointers to software, 2D->3D conversation kits, 3D players etc...appreciate it. Just bought the "stereo player" which is pretty "ok"...but maybe there is better stuff out?

G.

Here's a free 2D->3D converter : http://dragon.bestavia.com/indexold.html?progs.htm
I think it's from Dragon.

But still you can't look around 360º to explorer your surroundings. That's what faced my attention into them since my childhood, even more than the stereo-3D thing and made me bought one despite de cons.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a huge screen like yours to play games. In fact, since I got the shutterglasses, I'm using them instead of the HMD to play FPS for the comfort and the higher resolution.
So, I don't like the weight, low resolution and little FOV, it's just that it's the best I can have that allows me to look around. The idea of being IN a synthetic world has fascinated me all my life.

yes crim,

but unless you get a $64.000 "military grade" HMD you will be stuck with consumer-grade HMDs having a very, very small FOV.
That was actually the main reason i chose the 50" TV. If i set this on my desk...my view is filled, i doubt that a HMD in that range can do that.

If those HMDs would be like the ones people know from the movies...well..another story

Yeah, I totally agree. If they could bring out like a ultra-hd full 360 degree FOV HMD, it would beat everything else. I'm still waiting.

Anyway, I checked the prices on the Samsung, they are really affordable now. I had no idea. In fact, that 50" is less than I paid for my 32" LCD only a few years back. FOR A 50" 3D-READY SET!!!!! Unbelievable, I can't even imagine how much bigger the sizes can go? Like it can barely fit through a door as it is! I was looking at the 61" version. Insane prices, even for just a 2D screen. Please do some more tests and let us know how it is. Who needs a iz3d/Zalman when you can have 50 plus inches! I don't think I realized how big of a deal this was (I was thinking the sets were like $3,000-4,000). Great times.

Flexy, what kind of stereo formats can you run with that setup? I'll see if I can find anything on my computer you can use to test.

Also, could you tell me how the set works for 2d content (like reading text). Is it suitable as a monitor or just strictly for games/movies?

yeh dude even the 61" is great... around $1600, but then when you skip up to 67" it skips up to like $2500 heh.

Yeh i was surprised and thrilled to find out it has 3D support, i have my glasses 2day air coming in tommorow and getting a set tommorow too i think. I'll let you know how it works out, only experience w/ 3d drivers and such has been w/ gettin the IZ3d to work, so hopefully the DLP won't be hard to setup and tweak.

>>>
Yeah, I totally agree. If they could bring out like a ultra-hd full 360 degree FOV HMD, it would beat everything else. I'm still waiting.

Anyway, I checked the prices on the Samsung, they are really affordable now. I had no idea. In fact, that 50" is less than I paid for my 32" LCD only a few years back. FOR A 50" 3D-READY SET!!!!! Unbelievable, I can't even imagine how much bigger the sizes can go? Like it can barely fit through a door as it is! I was looking at the 61" version. Insane prices, even for just a 2D screen. Please do some more tests and let us know how it is. Who needs a is3d/Zalman when you can have 50 plus inches! I don't think I realized how big of a deal this was (I was thinking the sets were like $3,000-4,000). Great times.

Flexy, what kind of stereo formats can you run with that setup? I'll see if I can find anything on my computer you can use to test.

Also, could you tell me how the set works for 2d content (like reading text). Is it suitable as a monitor or just strictly for games/movies?
>>>

Cyber,

you have another advantage: Those sets in the states are "only" $1200 compared to EU1299 which i paid...but i think that the 1299 were still incredible "cheap" for what you get in return.

The TV has settings which allow switching between checkerboard (3D DLP standard) and vertical and horizontal interleave. But i was not able to test the interleave settings yet..i also cant say whether those would be better than the checkerboard.

Stereo seems to work only if you feed the set the native PC resultion, in my cas 1360x768 OR 1024x768 (never tried 1024)...if you chose another resolution or feed content from a source with diff resolution you cant turn on stereo.

TV as a "monitor" is OUTSTANDING...i agree with several reviews there. I was expecting much less, but this thing in front of you as a monitor at 1360x768...everthing is CLEAR and readable...its incredible! Not to mention gaming. (This is DVI --> HDMI)
Same for XBOX 360 of course.

The only problem with those plasmas is their sensitivity to "burn-in"...or "image retention"...so i would be careful with usinng this with static images for hours and hours....or at least only after 100-200hrs "break in period". But the TV has many options to avoid image retention or burn in, like automatic pixel shifting and similar. But this is something we plasma owners have to live with. So..using at a monitor i would make sure you use screen-savers and whatever methods and not have your static desktop on this thing 18hrs a day.

The other option would be going with the Samsung DLP sets where i also only hear good things, they wouldnt have the image-retention problem. Thats the DLP based sets which came out a few months before the plasmas.

I totally agree, $1200 for this gives you an oustanding HDTV with incredible picture quality, a giant monitor for 2D gaming as well as built-in 3D...and seeing that eg. a little HMD like the Z800 already is in the same price range it was a no-brainer to get this instead.

Nope, not at all. All you do is plug in the emitter in the back....connect your PC, have the (tridef) drivers installed and fire off the games from your PC connected via DVI ---> HDMI (Dont know if VGA would work also).

Checkerboard "wobulation" like those sets use seems to be simple to implement, thats why "stereo player" and similar utilities already support this format. So...in other words you can get one of those (very, very few) existing 3D DVDs, use stereo player, set to "samsung DLP"....and watch this in 3D on the big screen like in IMAX