1080p@60Hz page-flipping 3D gaming on Samsung HDTVs

[Nobsi]

Damn, it's true, I can run my new Series 7 Samsung Plasma in 1920x1080 @ 60Hz in Page-Flipping mode in 3D. This effectively is 30Hz per eye, so recognizably better than the 1920x1080 @ 24Hz frame packing mode.



Beside the mandatory 3D frame packing formats, the Samsung HDMI 1.4 HDTVs also support a bunch of optional 3D mode, like interlaced, checkerboard and page flipping (called Frequency in the manual).



Best is, like with the 24Hz stereo the TV multi-flashes the frames to produce 120Hz, so no flicker at all.

You need the nVidia 3D vision emitter and a pre 260.xx driver to get access to the optional modes, as the new 260.xx drivers with beta 3DTV Play only offer the 2 frame packing modes 720p@60Hz and 1080p@24Hz when it detects a known HDMI 1.4 capable device (and only 3D bluray playback for unknown HDMI 1.4 devices).

Now you can use either "Generic checkerboard" for 1080p@60Hz checkerboard format or "Generic CRT" for 1080p@60Hz page flipping (= effective 30 FPS per eye) in the nvidia control panel stereoscopic settings. Please note that the nVidia 3D vision emitter is just used as a dongle to get access to the 3D settings, the HDTVs emitter and glasses must be used.
The HDTV does not switch automatically to 3D, you must manually switch to 3D and select the appropriate mode (Checkerboard or Frequency).

The checkerboard mode normally requires a sync signal from the the HDTV, otherwise a message overlay "No 3D sync signal" is shown. I got rid of this by a simple USB powered circuit that generates roughly a 60Hz rectangle signal (actually every frequeny above 10Hz did work) and feeds this by a mini stereo jack to the emitter. Since the nVidia emitter is not actually used to sync the glasses, the frequency doesn't matter.
For page flipping mode (= "Generic CRT" in nVidia control panel/ "Frequency" in Samsung 3D menu) this isn't required.

After trying a little I found the 1080p@60Hz checkerboard format to be my favorite, followed by the 1080p page flipping format. Still 60 Hz per eye is a big difference to 30 Hz per eye. But it really depends on the game type.

And yes, I can play Black Ops in perfect 3D now without the 3DTV Play beta frame packing bugs /blurry aiming sight or sky shadows of objects.

[tritosine5G]

umm, what checkerboard with LCD means?
-they fill those missing square pixels with interpolated data?

Damn, some comparison of this would be interesting.

[Chiefwinston]

I'm not an expert with samsungs- but you may be doing 1080i60 not 1080p60. Thats 1080 interlaced and not 1080 progressive. Like I said I'm no expert here.

cheers everyone

[cybereality]

That is an interesting hack, but I am really doubtful 30Hz per eye would be acceptable. Personally I would much rather go with checkerboard or interlaced and get the full 60Hz.

[Fredz]

Did you try 720p@60Hz per eye to compare it with 1080p@60Hz per eye in checkerboard format ? What does look the best according to you ?

[Nobsi]

Did you try 720p@60Hz per eye to compare it with 1080p@60Hz per eye in checkerboard format ? What does look the best according to you?

720p@60Hz 3D on a 50" DHTV is ok if the game supports anti aliasing (4x or 8x) or at least AA can be forced in the nVidia control panel, can't complain about this. E.g. COD Black Ops looks good in this resolution. But for games that don't support AA, it's horrible.

1080p@24Hz frame packing looks way better of course for none-AA games, but for fast games like COD 24Hz simply isn't enough. This is mostly apparent when you turn your "virtual" view. I also noticed that this seems to extremely stress my brain. I can normally play for hours in 3D witout any discomfort, but with 24Hz I felt immediate light discomfort, especially when turning.

1080p@60Hz page flipping (30Hz per eye) is of course better as 24Hz, but I still felt the discomfort when turning.

1080p@60Hz checkerboard on the other hand seems to be the best compromise between visual beauty (resolution) and frame rate. It looks already good for none AA games and even better for games with AA. It has also the great advantage that it works also with iZ3D and TriDef and is the perfect mode for windowed 3D, as the rest of the screen is still readable (try that with side by side 3D mode).


So my favorite 3D mode is currently clearly checkerboard@1080p@60Hz.

Sadly nVidia does not offer this mode with the 260.xx drivers when it detects a HDMI 1.4 HDTV. I solved this problem though with a Gefen DVI Detective device that was programed with the EDID data of my old HDMI 1.3 samsung plasma. And remember you need the 3D vision emitter as dongle to get access to the alternative 3D modes in the nVidia control panel.

The EDID override trick unfortunatelly did not work. The nVidia drivers seems always to try to read the EDID directly from the connected HDTV. Maybe removing the pin for transmitting the EDID info in combination with the EDID override hack could fool the driver?

[Fredz]

Thanks for the information, much appreciated.

Concerning NVIDIA, shouldn't 3DTV Play be available independently from 3D Vision now ? Some months ago they announced its availability as a single package for november. Still not available ?

[Nobsi]

It seems to be still not available. And many nVidia customers are very unhappy (see their forum).
Obviously the implementation was much harder than nVidia has thought.

The current 3DTV Play beta has still some problems with rendering artefacts in some games (e.g. Black Ops).

[Chiefwinston]

Nobsi, hows the input lag on the set? I like twitch shooters ,also. I steered away from lcd/led 3d solutions because of it. I'm wondering if its contributing to your disappointment. I see you have a plasma- any idea about the mil/sec input lag spec. all sets are different.

On another note: I have (2) 50" Plasma TV'S one is a 720P model the other is 1080P. I bet I could fool every one of you as to wich one is the 720P model. Picture quality varies considerably from one manufacturer to another. I'm not so sure I could fool any of you with an lcd/led TV. We will at some point in the future have 1080p60. For big 100" gaming I can see its usefullness. The bigger the screen the more you can see "judder". But also, with the bigger screens input lag becomes bothersome to me- definetly in twitch shooters. I'm just trying to point out that 720P to 1080P is minute. Thats my opinion- and it doesn't mean much.

cheers everyone

[Nobsi]

Hi Chiefwinston
I'm in no way a hard core FPS gamer hunting for every ms. But in my opinion 60Hz 3D gaming on a plasma HDTV isn't bader than 120Hz 3D gaming on my old CRT setup. Actually in both cases you get 60 frames/sec per eye, since for HDTVs both left/right view are encoded in one frame (for all none page flipping modes).

Regarding picture quality and ghosting, if I find the time over the weekend I will try to do some photo shoots (with a real camera through a lens of the 3D glasses) for the 3 interesting modes (720p@60Hz, checkerboard@1080p@60Hz and 1080p@30Hz).

Btw, I own the original Samsung glasses (which was included with the TV) and the XPAND X103 universal glasses.
My first impression on this is that the X103 produces a warmer picture (filters more blue) and the Samsung is colder (filters more read). This gives different results for ghosting in the same scene, but overall I think they are on pair.

[Fredz]

It would be nice if you could take pictures for the left and right eye with your two types of glasses using this 3D test image from DDD :
http://www.tridef.com/support/3d-test-i ... Left-Right" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Chiefwinston]

Sorry Nobsi, I thought you were having issues with game play "smoothness" that would be hampered with ultra fast paced twitch shooter running at 1080p24.

hmm my brother has a Samsung 3D Plasma. I'm thinking its time to pay him a visit and check out his technology. I've been under the assumption that he's getting the same great results that I'm having with my Panasonic 50" VT25. He's not really playing games on his. But I will tell you that with my Panasonic Plasma, great results take time and patients- tweeking all the settings. Flipping on the game mode gets me in the ballpark but will not by default result in perfect 3D imaging. A setting on my plasma called C.A.T.S. has a big impact on ghosting. This particular setting turns on or off an ambiant room light sensor. Some games it creates ghosting: some games it eliminates the ghosting. But I'm able to arrive at settings that get me to were I want to be 3D wise. I do have to dig for it. The game 3D driver/software that I've played with is far from perfect. And is the source of ghosting that I'm seeing. One could degrade the imaging for complete ghost free stereo 3D. And I can do that with my set. But I'm more for high quality imaging. I do have a 3D blu-ray player that I can use for referencing. It yields 1080p24 3D that is ghost free comfortable on the eyes- and well its stunning. All the games I've tried are not in the same class as a 3D blu-ray.

cheers everyone

[Chiefwinston]

Also, when running a 3D blu-rays a new menu item appears in my settings. its labeled 24P direct in. It has options for 48hz, 60 hz, and 96 hz. When set to 96 hz I get ghost free 1080p. I believe this may be putting my shutter glasses at an ultra high 192 hz total. I'm kinda interested in your play software in if it will allow me to access this setting. I'm thinking it unique to the panasonic.

cheers everyone

[skrubol]

Faster would reduce flicker/eye strain, but in most cases would increase ghosting or decrease brightness (pixels/glasses have to switch more often, but switching times are the same.)

[Nobsi]

It would be nice if you could take pictures for the left and right eye with your two types of glasses using this 3D test image from DDD

Ok, so here is what I got so far. Since 3D checkerboard is my favorite mode, I did most of the photo shoots in this format. The shoots where made with a digiral camera either directly from the screen ot through the left/rigt lense of my XPAND X103 universal 3D glasses.

Tridef ghosting test image 1080p checkerboard without glasses:


Tridef ghosting test image through left lens of X103 glasses:


Tridef ghosting test image through left lens of X103 glasses:


Mafia2 is a good example for the advantage of the 1080p checkerboard mode. With the 260.xx drivers I can't enable AA, neither in-game nor via the nVidia control panel. This game looks really terrible in 720p frame packing and with 1020p@24Hz it looks great, but is not really playable for me.
Even 1080p page flipping with 30Hz per eye still gave me some discomfort when turning my (virtual) view.

Finally 1080p@60Hz checkerboard looks great and deliveres 60Hz per eye.


Mafia2 1080p checkerboard without glasses:


Mafia2 1080p checkerboard through left lens of X103 glasses:


I can't barely notice any ghosting while playing, despite the fact I use maximum separation of 7 cm (= my left/right eye distance) for distant objects.

[cybereality]

Wow, that looks really good. Ghosting is practically not noticeable at all (especially in the Mafia shot). Much better than I would expect given the horror stories floating around regarding Samsung 3D TVs. I'm still on the fence on whether I would want one, but now they are at least on my radar.

[Fredz]

Many thanks for the ghosting test Nobsi, I didn't expect such a low ghosting on this model. It seems this plasma is in the same league or even better than the VT25 from Panasonic.

Maybe the X103 glasses are better than the Panny ones since the technology should be quite similar for the displays.

Did you really get the same results ghosting-wise with the Samsung glasses ? Which model btw ?

[Nobsi]

My Samsung is the European plasma model PS50C7790. I did get it for 1380,- €.

I initially had the intension to by a Panasonic plasma, but after some research I found that Panasonic does not support any none-mandatory 3D format.
The Samsung does support them all (including checkerboard, interlaced and page flipping) and is cheaper, so I gave it a go and I'm quite happy with this HDTV.
It also looks very good and is only about 3 cm deep.
I can not compare to a Panasonic Plasma, but I don't believe that the Panasonic has much less ghosting.

Regarding the glasses, the original Samsung one (it's the cheaper model without a frame on the lower lenses side) isn't as consistent as the X103 regarding ghosting. It's good in the middle, but nearer to the frames at the outer side more ghosting becomes visible.
The X103 is superior in this regard and also has really large lenses, a very big improvement about my previous eDimensional DLP glasses (based on the old ELSA Revelator design).

[tritosine5G]

I think static picture is not exactly a good test for the type of ghosting plasma produce, that is phosphorus afterglow.

I noticed ghosting on my DLP though, now that I use silverscreen. OFC the usual scenario, total darkness plus bright lamp. Dual projection better be at this level or I'll be angry. )

[skrubol]

I think static picture is not exactly a good test for the type of ghosting plasma produce, that is phosphorus afterglow.

Shutter stereo is never static, it's alternating 2 frames at 120 Hz.

[Zerofool]

Hi, Nobsi, congrats for your new acquisition.
It's good to see manufacturers adding support for more formats, and I hope that we'll soon see 3DTVs with DisplayPort input.

Anyway, my concern is with the title of the topic - "1080p@60Hz 3D gaming.." is misleading - "60Hz 3D" would mean 60fps per eye, at least that's how I understand it (and got excited when I saw it ). In your case it should be "1080p@30Hz 3D gaming.." if you were talking about the page flipping mode. If you referred to the 1080p checkerboard mode.. it wouldn't be correct as well, because it only delivers half of the resolution (therefore, "1080p" is not entirely true). Just my thoughts here, no offence.
I wish you thousands of hours of good S3D gaming on this baby .

[cybereality]

Yes, Zerofool is right. The title is misleading, and I thought the same thing when I first saw it. In regards to HDMI 1.4 the nomenclature designates a few different options such as 720P@60Hz, 1080P@24Hz, etc. In those cases, the Hz is referring to the refresh rate of the source material (ie game or movie) with a single frame containing both left and right eye views, irrespective of the refresh rate of the screen or of the shutter glasses. In both those cases the display and glasses still refresh at 120Hz. Also, there is an optional mode in HDMI 1.4 called 1080P@60Hz, which refers to a frame-packed input of 1080Px2 refreshing at 60Hz. This is then processed by the TV and displayed as if it were a 1080P@120Hz page-flipped signal. Again, the display refresh rate and shutter glasses rate remain 120Hz. So claiming that "1080p@60hz is possible on Samsung" is extremely misleading, even though it is arguably true (but only in the language of legacy 3D systems, not the modern standard). So you may wish to edit the title and call it something else, like "1080p@60Hz page-flipping" to differentiate it from HDMI 1.4.

[Nobsi]

So claiming that "1080p@60hz is possible on Samsung" is extremely misleading, even though it is arguably true (but only in the language of legacy 3D systems, not the modern standard). So you may wish to edit the title and call it something else, like "1080p@60Hz page-flipping" to differentiate it from HDMI 1.4.

Sorry for this confusion, I' m obviously just to old fashioned regarding 3D. I edited the thread title to your suggestion.
I just felt the need to publish my findings since anywhere is told that Panasonic HDTVs are superior for 3D, but Samsung HDTVs have also their advantages (and are a lot cheaper).

But still 30Hz per eye is a lot better than 24Hz, though it showed up that at least for me 30Hz is still not playable. I feel a discomfort at that frame rate that I don't get after hours at 60Hz per eye.
(Note that this has noting to do with flicker since the HDTV shows every frame twice to output at 120Hz frame rate.)

[cybereality]

But still 30Hz per eye is a lot better than 24Hz, though it showed up that at least for me 30Hz is still not playable. I feel a discomfort at that frame rate that I don't get after hours at 60Hz per eye.
(Note that this has noting to do with flicker since the HDTV shows every frame twice to output at 120Hz frame rate.)

So are you saying that the glasses still shutter at 120Hz?

[Chiefwinston]

Nobsi, man you make me have to buy updated computer equipment. I see your discovery. And it is quite interesting. I'm thinking your getting 60 different frames per second. I don't have updated computer equipment at the moment. I will be looking at this on my panasonic. It should yield fantastic results- kinda like your saying

cheers everyone

[Nobsi]

So are you saying that the glasses still shutter at 120Hz?

Yes, 60 Hz output would produce aweful flicker in 3D.
The TV does the same for 24Hz blu-ray input, otherwise it would be unwatchable.
I'm not sure though how often the frames are repeated, but my guess is 2 times:

24Hz * 2 (splitting left/right) = 48 frames * 2 (multiflashing) = 96 frames
That would be the minimum to get no flicker with shutter glasses!

Nobsi, man you make me have to buy updated computer equipment

Oh, sorry for that

[skrubol]

I think the 3d TV's use something like 3:2 pulldown with 24p material to keep the shutter rate at 120Hz:
L1,R1,L1,R1,L1,R2,L2,R2,L2,R2...

[Zerofool]

Hi again, I forgot to ask one thing regarding this "1920x1080 @ 60Hz in Page-Flipping mode". What inputs does it work with? Does it work with the VGA PC input? Even if not in full 1080p, like let's say 1366x768 or 720p? If it does, it would mean that there's a slight chance for it to work with the legacy nvidia driver . That would be an interesting experiment - Doom 3 in 3D on a Plasma 3DTV .

[Chiefwinston]

Zerofool, thats an interesting observation. I was wondering the same thing. synching I think maybe the problem. It would be very interesting to know though.

cheers everyone

[PeterMiller]

Hi Nobsi,
can you show me the schematic for your "simple USB powered circuit" please.

[Innuendo1231]

It would be nice to know wich television sets support this frame-sequential or page-flipping mode.

Samsung series 7 tv's are very expensive : \ Any other (cheaper) active 3d tv's supporting it would be great

[Innuendo1231]

How about the new UHD series?
The 1080p F7000 series suports page flipping and checkerboard via hdmi 1080p. I wonder if the new 4k HU7500 series supports CB and page flipping in 4k as well?