"Yes" to your last question.

I have to go now. I'll edit this post later to add more...

Back now, yes, switch is for enabling the inverter only when needed. If BLC worked with your setup, then we might not need a switch but I think chances for that are slim.

Another registry tweak...
If you want to, let's see if the nvidia driver can output BLC. In that same registry location as before, set StereoViewerType to 16 decimal (remember the original value so you can change it back later). Then make a new dword entry called LineColorCode and set it to ff. Then try some game in 3d. Don't run the nvidia control panel or use the nvidia test since it might reset StereoViewerType. Look for thin blue lines on the bottom of the screen when in 3d. If this works, there's a chance you might not need the switch. When done, set StereoViewerType back to what it was before (I expect it should be 1). Go ahead and delete LineCodeColor. I don't really expect this to work but there's a chance it might. You should probably try this in single monitor mode but it's OK with me if you don't want to bother.

Comments:
OK well, if I'm planning on getting the 3dvision some day I might need the same thing as you so I can go ahead and make one for myself. Don't buy a breadboard unless you want one for some other reason. This project is pretty simple and might not even need a circuit board. I thought we might modify your inverter but after consideration, it might be better to make a second thing and not screw with your present one. Describe your inverter if you want. Is it like a box or a cable or both?

Ideas:
Right now, I think the best idea I have is to make this out of easy-to-find common parts and make it like a box with a push-button toggle switch that you could put on the floor if you want and use it as a footswitch. How does that sound? The switch should be a SPDT (single-pole dual-throw). Of course you could put it on your desk too. The box and switch need to be a little strong for footswitch use. Basically, it would look like my other wired inverter/junction box using stereo jacks instead of 3-pin DINs since things will be easier to find that way. You would not use your current inverter and use your current DIN-stereo plug adapter cable. Plug that into your dongle and plug the 2.5mm stereo plug into the box. The box would have two stereo jacks, one 2.5mm jack and one 1/8 inch (standard audio) jack. Then you could connect the box to the emitter using a standard audio cable (male-male) with a 1/8 inch to 2.5mm plug adapter on the end. It sounds a little complicated but I'll make some pictures. I'm off to the Shack now. C'ya

what switch do I need to get a 2 pole or 3 pole?? I am also wondering how to put it all together?? do I need to get a Circuit board or just use the bread board?? or just solder all the pieces to gether and stick it in a box??

Hi again,

OK well I sort of changed my mind about the design for myself and went back to the original and modified it. You can see it in the other thread at the top of page 2.
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4661&p=71534#p71534

Some of this construction was a little difficult but it's good practice for me. After doing this, I think it might be better/easier/cheaper for you to just modify your inverter... no need to order parts, just buy/find one switch and wiring and it should work. So go ahead and describe your inverter or take a picture. If the inverter is not easily reachable, then you can make the wires going to the switch longer so the switch can be located better. If you want to stick with my previous idea using audio jacks, then I'll make a picture/diagram for you. Finally, if you want to toggle inversion using "The Clapper" then we'll have to get outside help.

another software approach?
There's a thread about coding for the usb hub. I have to find a link but it mentions a keystroke combination to reverse the sync. This would be nice but I/you need to read more in that thread to see if you can/want to try it. The author cautions that trying it might cause problems. Let's see if I can find it. Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3130&p=23830&hilit=3dvision+code#p23830
It's 7 pages and I don't have time to read it right now. Maybe it's just for special homemade apps and OpenGL.

hah, the clapper.

By the_nephilim at 2008-04-03



it has on the insiode mostly resistors from what I can see. but it has a black plastic fill making it impossible to work on anything inside the box.. If you want an inside pic let me know or If we can put the switch from outside I am all ears for that solution..a little schematic of the switch into the 3 pin din wires.. I can solder and stuff..



EDIT: I may have found a Solution to all these troubles.. I was reading that thread on ChrisJarams setup that race simulator and he stated ltr on that same setup using the nVidia emitter and using a Pair of Crystaleyes 2-3 3D Glasses the 3D Was Flawless..

So I was thinking maybe the new CE4 Would be similar and work for me.. I would take a real gamble here as he stated he was not 100% Sure it was going to work for others but I dont see why it will NOT.. HE had basically the same Projectors I have and he stated the Red Shift Ghosting was a sync issure from the Color wheel..

But with the CE3 Glasses it was Flawless 3D.. I am wondering thos will the CE4 Be the same as the 2 and 3 Models compatibility wise??

Thinking outside the box (pun intended)

Hi neph,

OK well it looks like you have some choices but if you want to use the simplest hardware hack then you can hack into both the inverter cable and the nvidia cable to install an inverter bypass switch. However, there might be some issues that you're not be comfortable with:

- wires may be thin and delicate and you may not be comfortable working with them.
- this idea "marries" the two cables treating them as one. You may want to keep them separable.

If you decide to go ahead with this project, here's the diagram I made with Paint. It turned out nice. Yay Paint. Trivia: used gif which was 90x smaller than bmp image format. wow.



You'll see that on the inverter cable, you don't really cut the signal wire, just add a branch coming off of it. In the nvidia cable, you DO cut it and attach those two new ends to the switch. Just make sure the stereo-plug-side connects to the center terminal of the switch.

Meter this:
Before you start cutting, use your multimeter and make sure things are wired the way I think they are. Check your nvidia cable and make sure that the tip of the stereo plug connects to the center DIN pin on the other end. If you want to meter more, you can plug in both cables like normal, then disconnect the stereo plug from the usb emitter and use ED-Activator to activate the dongle. Check that the wired glasses are shuttering, then you can verify 5V DC on the ring of the stereo plug compared to the sleeve. You can even, switch to metering AC Volts and check for voltage on the tip compared to the sleeve. The signal is a 5V square wave so the meter should show something between 0 and 5. Obviously, be careful not to short anything together.

Finding the signal wires:
Basically, to find the right wires to cut or branch from, you have to cut the jacket of the cables, and then sort out the wires inside, then use a sewing needle to gently poke through the wire insulation. On the nvidia cable, meter from the stereo plug tip to the needle checking for continuity. This will tell you if you have the right wire, otherwise you have to needle another wire. Unfortunately, I have no better ideas about finding the right wire other than this trial and error guessing game method. At least there's only three wires. Electrical tape any big holes you make and don't make needle pricks too close to each other. Heat shrink can also be good on any wires you cut. On the inverter cable, meter from the needle to the middle pin on the DIN.

If you don't like this solution, I'm still willing to draw/describe another stereo-plug-using box idea.

How did another weekend sneak up on us? C'ya.

--- iondrive ---

OK Looks OK I think I could manage this.. I do have 1 question is it the same switch you mentioned before?? Or is it another switch??

Which switch was it again??

well, the switch I used was the only SPDT Push on/off switch they had in-store, RadioShack part number 275-1555, but you might prefer something smaller or a rocker switch or a sliding switch. Choose whatever style you like as long as it's SPDT. You can just meter the terminals to make sure it works the way you think it does. The "problem" with this switch is that there's no way to tell if you're bypassing the inverter or not since the pushbutton looks exactly the same either way, there's no indicator. This is not really a problem since It's not important to know that info. You just hit it if you need to and don't worry about if it's bypassing or not, as long as it works. The other problems with this switch is that it's pretty tall so I had to make it stick out of the box as much as possible in order to fit the rest of it inside the 1 inch height and it barely fit then. I expect to post a photo on the other thread later tonight. If I wasn't making a footswitch, I think I would have chosen a rocker (possibly circuit-board mountable). A rocker should work nicely if you plan to just attach it to the cable. On the other hand, if you happen to have some switch lying around that is DPDT and you want to use that, then you could just use one-half of that and it should work fine. A DPDT should have six terminals arranged in two rows of three. Choose one of those rows (ignoring the other) and it should work like a SPDT switch. Just meter those three terminals using different switch positions and make sure it works like you think.

Wire length:
I forgot to mention the obvious, that you can choose longer wires for the magenta wires in the diagram so that you can have the switch positioned further away from the cables but I'm not sure of any max length limits.

Thin wire warning:
I just hope that the wires aren't so thin that poking them with a needle might break them.

married cables: a future divorce?
I mentioned that this wires the two cables together, but I just wanted to say that if you ever want to use either cable on it's own again and trash this setup, you can just cut that one wire that goes to the inverter cable, and then the inverter will work like it did before and the nvidia cable will also work like before as long as you keep the switch in the right position. One cut, and the cables will be divorced. ,

A little apology:
Sorry we couldn't get this working automatically without a switch. It's a little bit of a pain, but not too bad. I think it's tolerable. Any word on the two BLC tests in single projector mode? (sView and also setting StereoViewerType to 0x10 to see if the nvidia driver generates BLC) You might not need the switch if both things worked. Also, you could use old iZ3D drivers for some older games. I'm just not sure about 3-projector mode. Do you have iZ3D or Tridef drivers licenses?

OK before we go any further is there anything that can be done with the Color Sync Issues I am getting now?? It is that Red shift Ghosting probally a color sync issue???

I did the StereoViewer to 0 and that did NOT do anything NO BLC at the bottom???I do NOT get any BLC with Single Projector??

I also just tried the IZ3D Drivers they woulf not start the emitter.. in the test image I saw a double image but was NOT able to get my glasses to come on???



I am going to play around with the Ghosting issue and see if it is still there with the Dongle removed and just using nVidias Emitter.. If it is still there that was because In one of thos threads they mentioned that by using the ED 3D Glasses the Ghosting shoulf NOT be there well it was but it was a whitish Ghosting slight but still there??

I am NOT sure why now all of a sudden I am getting this Ghosting issue like I get but I am really just considering getting NEW DLP Projectors..

But IF we can get a soltion for the Red shift Ghosting By the way I see it in BOTH Eyes.. I could possibly keep these Current DLP Projectors a bit longer..


EDIT: Once I take off the Dongle and just use the nVidia Emitter the Ghosting is Nearly Eliminated to about below 1%..So it is Definetely the ED Dongle Causing my Ghosting ,, So what can be done ??

Good troubleshooting neph.

short answer: try it at 85 Hz (and 60 just to test it), also try setup without inverter in case inverter is the cause of some delay.

long answer:
Yes, most likely it's a color-sync issue and, just for fun, I'll describe a crazy way to prove it later but right now it looks like your easiest chance to do something about it is just try some different frequencies. You normally like 75 Hz, right? Try 60, 70 and 85 Hz. I'm not sure if ghosting will all be red but there's a chance it might. I found this web page with your PJ stats so I see it can go to 85 Hz.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sharp-XR-10XL.htm
Do those stats look right to you? I see it says the colorwheel has 4 segments, probably red, green, blue, and white. Anyway, you were probably thinking that you might need a time-delay circuit now and it seems like that should work but I need to think about this some more. It looks like it's time to say "dang it all". But before you do those freq changes, let me ask/tell you some things.

I expect that you see the red ghosting with the eDim glasses too. Is this true? If so, here's how I want you to test those freqs. Use the dongle with the Activator and the ED glasses but don't connect the nvidia adapter cable. Start some game in 3d that is easy to see the red ghosting on. Some game with alot of white like a winter scene should be good but whatever. Now you can look through either pair of glasses and compare them easily. From your previous tests, the ED glasses should show the ghosting while the nvidia don't. Now try that with each frequency that you care to try. Just remember to exit the game, de-Activate the dongle, change freq, re-Activate the dongle, start the game and get it running in the new freq, same as the desktop. Yes, it's a hassle but you might find it works at 85 Hz. Hmmm, you probably don't want to run at 70 or 60 Hz but try them anyway because it might help me figure out what's going on. Try, at least 60 and 85. I'm sort of expecting 60 to be good but if they all have the same red ghosting, then most likely, a delaying circuit will work. I think RAGEDemon had some schematic posted for such a circuit.

BLC
well, if sView doesn't work in single-projector BLC mode, then it looks like eDim didn't have that circuitry in their dongles back when you bought it. I guess we can forget about BLC.

circuitry delay?
Could the inverter be causing the sync-signal delay? I wouldn't think so but I wonder. In the specs for that inverter chip that I used, it says the propagation delay is like 10 nanoseconds while one frame at 75 Hz is 13,333,333 ns, so too small to cause color-sync ghosting which is why I didn't mention it. Too bad things can't be easier/nicer. I'm not sure where we'll go from here.

UPDATE: To check if the inverter is causing the red ghosting, take it out. Just connect the eDim dongle straight to the usb emitter and check 3d with the activator. If the inverter is the cause, your ghosting should be gone.

OK You got it Backwards I saw the Red Ghosting with the nVidia Glasses the most. and with the ED Glasses it looked like a White Ghosting..

Long Story Short It looks BEST at 3072x768 "70Hz" 32bit.. the Bit rate didnt do much but the frequency change the Higher I went the More NOTICABLE it was..

At 60 HZ the Glasses DO NOT Shutter.. At 85 with this Projector you get SEVERE Ghosting and not sure if you heard about this and this paticular model INK BLOTCH Problem at 85 HZ..it kinda looks like Ink Blots in some scenes and Psychadelic in the others but Long Story SHORT I Can only set the Hz to 70 or 75hz..


viewtopic.php?p=6229

At 70 HZ it seemed less of a ghosting effect..NO Matter what
I had hooked up the dongle with the inverter. it all looked the same So I do NOT Think it is the Dongle or the Inverter causing my Ghosting???

It is still there with the ED Glasses but the Ghosting is White in color and not too Noticable..but at higher HZ the RED Ghosting Gets REAL BAD with the nVidia glasses. I also been noticing some Bluish ghosting too..

70hz seems like the sweet spot and not to bad a hz to game in still with the DLP PRojectors it is NOT like a CRT the DLP can be lower and not notice the flicker as bad as the same hz on a CRT..

that link to the Projector is the EXACT Same Projectors I have GOOD Place that Projector Central. that is where I Browsed when I was looking to get my Projectors good info there on most Projectors..

I just want to put out there NOT sure if it is related but just thought I would mention it incase it is relevant..When I did that one Reg hack to change the timer delay after that is when I started experiencing ALL this Ghosting .. I never had so much Ghosting before near NONE at All but very minor and hardly noticable..



EDIT: I found this in the Chrisjarram thread and wanted to know what you thought of using Crystal Eyes 4 as a solution to my Ghosting sync issues:


Quote from Chris:
More test results from last night. I tried the nvidia emitter with my XR-10-x and CrystalEyes (I 5xCE3 and 3xCE2, and all work fine with the nvidia emitter so I think its safe to say this is CE-compatible but don't state me on that! . The results were FLAWLESS - zero ghosting, eyes the right way round and perfect timing right out of the box (no need for eDimensional VGA dongle- this is down to a conveinient set of coincidences in the timing. With the nvidia glasses there is a slight red ghosting (due to the colour wheel sync) which can be resolved with the hardware mentioned above..

Hi again,

I don't have time to write all I have to say so I'll just give you these questions for now.

Q1: is the ghosting the same on all projectors?

Q2: Are you using the projector's serial port?

Q3: is the projector's display mode now the same as always? (Standard, Presentation, Movie, Game, or sRGB). You've always used sRGB, right?

Q4: is the ghosting the same with both eyes when using the edim glasses?


Fixing the red ghost

I thought "AntiAliasing Gamma Correction was on" was the problem.
Q5: Was shutting this off just a partial fix?

Also, from another post:
"Once I take off the Dongle and just use the nVidia Emitter the Ghosting is Nearly Eliminated to about below 1%"
Q6: If you have the dongle VGA-connected but not emitter-connected, is the red ghosting still down to less than 1%?

Regarding the registry tweak:
I've thought some more about this and did some research and I don't see how it's possible to damage the projectors. I've recently figured out that, in the old nvidia 3d drivers, this setting inverts the DDC signal that toggles the glasses and it doesn't ever change the phase of that signal. It either inverts or doesn't invert and I've verified this with my own PJ. But 3dvision does not put out a DDC signal and also, you have the DDC pin 12 not connected so that your PJs look like CRTs. In short, I cannot figure out any way for signals on your VGA connector to break your PJs unless there was a voltage spike that reset your firmware??? But if all three PJs show the same ghosting, this is highly unlikely. I also think that reset firmware would likely show many other worse problems than what you have now.

The Crystal-Eyes:
These seem promising but still a bit of a gamble. I would save this option for a later possibility. Basically, if you could verify that the new ones are compatible with the old ones, then chances seem good that they will work. But things are still a little strange here so I would hold off on getting these for now. Does nvidia have both IR and RF emitters? Yours is IR, right?

more later or tomorrow.

OK I put my answers in the above Quote in Bold type.. Also I thought I was getting Minimal Ghosting when the Dongle was off but further testing it looks like it is the same No Matter what is hooked up..

Also the Ghosting now is Blinking ON and OFF??? One second I see it and the other second it dissappears?? IT is IN BOTH Eyes too..

EDIT: I am going to be getting the Acer X1261P Projectors for now. so I am going to just live with how it is which really is NOT that bad but in some views kinda annoying..

I really appreciate your help and Hope to see you around on the Forums this has been both entertaining and a good learning experience ..

Hopefully the new Projectors will be Good and NO more Problems like this..I do Need to get a Vid card and a PSU before I can get the Projectors..

OK, thanks for all that. I researched the TH2Go and DH2Go. They are awesome ideas and that's why your PJs are in sync with each other. Multiple monitors from one or two graphics cards is normally hard to sync like that. Anyway, moving on to troubleshooting mode...

Something is delaying your signals. Is it the PJs, the TH2Go or is something wrong with the USB emitter?


the blinking red ghost:
always compare the edim glasses to the nvidia glasses. If the blinking is only in the nvidia glasses but not the edim, then suspect the fault at the USB emitter. Do you happen to have a second 3dvision kit or another emitter?

2 things to test

Test 1: move edim dongle to output of TH2Go
I'm guessing that you probably have the edim dongle between the computer and the TH2Go. Try putting the dongle on one of the outputs of the TH2Go. It should not matter which one but choose the right side since it's very possible that you will get no video out of the dongle. This is because it gets power (5V) from pin 9 of the graphics card but many VGA devices and cables don't send that power through to their output for some reason and so your dongle will have no power. Use an eDim power adapter if you have it. If this works, then test with sView using edim glasses (backwards). One way to avoid this test is to just use a multimeter on the output VGA port of the TH2Go. Look for voltage between pin 9 and ground or pin 10. Oh, better yet, just look at the end of the VGA cable where it plugs into your TH2Go. If it's missing pin 9, then you can forget this test unless you have that power adapter.

Analyzing results of test 1:
If ghosting on edim glasses is gone or different, then TH2Go is a source of signal delay.
If there is still ghosting, then PJ is the source of signal delay (other than inversion).
It's possible both things are sources of delay.


Test 2: test projector without TH2Go
This test is a little more of a hassle but it will be nice to confirm that your PJ is not breaking. Hook up 1 PJ to the edim dongle and that to your graphics card. It's allright if the computer recognizes it as a non-CRT. Test with sView and the edim glasses. Hopefully ghosting will be close to 0 with this setup. I thought that I read somewhere that you had a DVI-VGA adapter in which you removed pin 12? If so, then you can use that now and try the nvida glasses too with this setup.


And finally a humorous solution for dyslexics: a mirror image trick

I have to mention this little idea before I forget. This trick will work with a limited number of games that don't depend on you reading text and you must be able to remap the controls. I tested this and it works but it can be awkward. The trick is.... use the mirror image function on your projector. This will invert the parallax shift of each eye so that things look non-inverted. This might be good for a racing game where the HUD uses dials instead of numbers except that the race course will seem mirror imaged... right turns in the road are now left turns and visa versa. You just need to remap the control keys swapping left and right. Oh, I guess the steering wheel would be on the wrong side too. Anyway, it was just a cool idea that I wanted to mention. Too bad it's not good for most games. I guess you could use this with a DLP tv too if you look at the tv through its reflection in a mirror that you set up. Hmmm, if it's a directX9 game, you should be able to use a shader to toggle the mirroring off and on so you can read the menu screens. Then when you're in-game, you can toggle the mirror image mode. Yay, another idea to throw on the scrap-pile of discarded solutions. Oh wait, could there be a shader that mirror images the world but not the HUD? Hmmm, I think there's a chance of that being true but I just don't know enough about it.

Oh, hey, next time you see that white ghosting on a red background, turn the glasses upside-down. Hopefully this will turn it into the same red ghosting as on the nvidia glasses. Verify this if you can.

That's all for now.

--- iondrive ---

Test 1: THIS is Impossible?? I tried it got no signal to screen?

Test 2: YES NO Ghosting with the ED Glasses. I put on the Vision Glasses and the ghosting was there..I do not have any pins removed with Current setup..but nVidia 3D Vision worked still but got the RED Ghosting..

Test3: No, it goes away the White Ghosting when I reverse the ED Glasses on a Red Backround..???


EDIT: I never even thought the Emitter could be going bad?? I looked and they do NOT sell them individually..I will look around on ebay tho maybe Ill find just the Emitter??


I just Bought a new 3D Vision kit, should be here in a week.. will let you know then. hopefully this old emitter is on the fritz. I never noticed so much ghosting before?? and it is there even with just the emitter hooked up so it has to be the emitter..

OK. Thanks for doing all that. Test 1 didn't work because the dongle had no power from pin 9 like it needs. That setup would need a special power adapter but it looks like you don't need to set things up that way after all since it looks like ghosting is the same with or without the TH2Go. If so, then it's not a significant source of signal delay and you can set it up like before.

So all these things seem to have no effect on the red ghosting, correct?
Edim dongle - I expect this to not introduce any delay
TH2GO - I thought this might but from your test, it looks like not
Projectors - same as above
inverter - same as above

So I think all that's left is the emitter but that might be some weird software glitch so don't buy a new one just yet. After all this, sorry to resort to such a basic idea but I think it's time to re-install some older drivers. Let's try to get back to the point where it was last working good. I know you installed new drivers recently but just go back to the old ones and see if it helps. But before you do, I would like you to write down some registry entries so you can compare them before and after the driver re-installation. I don't know if you want to use any kind of nvidia driver "cleaner" between the uninstall and the reinstall. I think that's optional but do it if you know how. Here's the registry entries I would like you to check before and after:

under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\NVIDIA Corporation\Global\Stereo3D
GlassesSwitchDelay - expect 0
ShowAllViewerTypes - should not be important, but out of curiosity
StereoCompatibility - probably 0, don't know much about this
StereoViewer - probably 1
StereoViewerType - probably 1

And then, look under
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\NvStUSB\Parameters

Q7: do you have a few entries there or alot?
Why look there? Well I downloaded a version of the usb driver and looked into the nvstusb.inf file and it looks like that's where certified projector properties are. I expect these properties to descibe timing info for each of these projectors so that 3dvision can adjust it's shutterglass timing to match the individual timing characteristics of each certified projector. I wonder if your machine is using this data wrong somehow.

I don't know if you normally unplug your emitter during a reinstall but I think you probably should. We're basically trying to reset/reinitialize the emitter in case some bad software got in there somehow. I don't really know if it has it's own firmware.

Well I hope this works. I've got my fingers crossed.

Oh hey, before uninstalling, you could try just unplugging and replugging in the usb emitter.

--- iondrive ---

here are the entries for the 275.33 drivers:

glasses delay = 0
show all viewer = 1
Stereo Compatibility=NO Entry
Stereo Viewer = NO Entry
Stereo Viewer type = 1


HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\NvStUSB\Parameters = Alot of entries looked like Projector monitor entries..

296.10 entries:


glasses delay = 0
show all viewer = 1
stereo compatibility = no entry
Stereo viewer = no entry
stereo viewer type = 2147483649

ok well if you are still cursed by the red ghost, you can still try one more thing that I discovered 20 minutes ago while screwing around with my old Simuleyes glasses playing Rise of the Triad, slipstream5000 and whiplash in 3d using WLC in a dosbox with vsync. That accomplishment is a long awaited milestone for me, but anyway it turns out that low voltage can cause a delay in how quickly the shutters turn black and that would cause red ghosting on a DLP device if the first color on the wheel was red which is true in my case and probably yours too. Give your glasses a good charge and try them then. I actually doubt that this is the problem since you've tried new glasses already. If we're still looking for the problem, then just maybe the emitter is underpowered. Might as well unplug all non-essential usb gear as well as the edim dongle and try it then. After thinking some more about the emitter, I think it's a dumb unit that should not be able to cause a delay but I have to admit that I really don't know. When you see the red flashing, try your other nvidia glasses.

Q8: How do the glasses usually behave when the batteries are low?
Q9: Can you change the batteries in the glasses?

Registry settings above show no surprises.
stereo viewer type = 2147483649 translates to 80000001 hex which tells me it was set for anaglyph mode when you checked it. If you don't mind, check that one again after you get the glasses working and see if it's a "1" like I expect. Missing entries are probably not important since they are from old school drivers. Regarding NvStUSB\Parameters for various projectors, I should have known they would all be there after taking a closer look at nvstusb.inf. If I knew more about everything, then we might be able to spoof your displayID to one of those projectors as long as the timing specs match. I don't think I'll be able to go down that road.

SLI:
It's an awesome setup you've got there and I think that's about as good as it gets because, although I've never done SLI, I would expect small timing differences between the projectors unless you have some trick up your sleeve like an external sync pulse input or something. I've tried multimon stereo before and it's hard to get them in perfect vertical sync and even then, one monitor can be one frame behind. Anyway, good luck as always.

--- iondrive ---

Hi, Well I think when the Battery is low it gets worse..
I can change the battery in the Old pair I am NOT going to mess with the new pair yet..

I am Running a Single card currently and using the TH2Go unit to get the 3 screens working.. I am going to get SLI within a week after I buy the new card and PSU..



EDIT: That Stereo Viewer Type is NOW 1..Also Do you kniow how to put in a new INF File in for the Projector??


I just got the new Emitter that was NOT the Problem so my OLD Emitter is Fine??? Wierdness.. Leaning towards some new projectors now???

HEY!!! This should help!

EDIT: oh dang, maybe not since I was testing this on a CRT. It minimizes the amount of ghosting on the top of the screen which should translate into red ghosting on a DLP but the technologies may be different enough that this logic might not hold in this case. Just try it and see.

Remember using your old CRT? You could move the image up and down using the buttons on the CRT but you could also find a software way to do that using your video card's control panel. Do that now and shift the image as far down as possible. I'm not sure how the PJs will react to this. They might flicker black for a second as they adjust to the new settings or you might have to readjust the PJ image using it's buttons. Anyway, once you slide the image down all the way, I'm pretty confident you will have reduced red ghosting. I know this doesn't explain the flickering ghosting that you reported but I still think it should help. I've also played with video signal timings including vertical front-porch and back-porch but they didn't seem to help much. That was last year so maybe I'll retest since I know a little more now. Although in this case, I feel more like Homer Simpson talking to his brain... "C'mon brain, think of something".

Have you decided what to do with your extra emitter/kit? Can you return it? Sorry I couldn't troubleshoot faster. I'll let you know if I'm interested in buying it from you but I wasn't really planning on getting one anytime soon.

INF file entry:
in short, not really. I've edited some nvidia driver files in order to install stereo drivers on my laptop after some hints from laptopvideo2go.com but things are a little different and unfamiliar here. It looks like each PJ has it's own code so you would need to find the correct code for the TH2Go. I would suspect its in some reading of hardware ID but I don't think I want to go in that direction since I don't have the right hardware to investigate. Maybe someone else has "the right stuff". It seems like we should be able to get things working without this. I just mentioned it to possibly give you or someone else another line of attack. In the old days before monitor ID, you could just reinstall your CRT as any other CRT and Windows would take your word on it. I'm not sure if that would work in this case and it seems a little risky to me since we don't know what all those numbers mean. Anyway, hopefully the first paragraph above will condemn the red ghost to the depths of heck.

--- iondrive ---

PS: here's the link to RAGEDemon's circuit but I'm unsure how good it is right now. My sense is that adjusting the variable resistors might be a little touchy but once they're set, you shouldn't need to adjust them anymore although you would still need that inverter bypass switch. The emitter in the circuit needs to be swapped out for some other output plug/jack in your case.

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=25

Well If I understand what you wanted me too do I think I did and it did nothing?? There is a way inside nVidias CP to move the screen position. I moved down as far as I could go and tested the 3D Still ghosting???

I might just resell the nVidia 3d Vsion kit on ebay?? Let me know if you want it I can sell it too you. I only took out the Emitter to test and charged the glasses.. If you want it let me know..I paid $100.00 USD for it so make me an offer if you want it..

Hi N,

Things are not looking good:
Well I thought that last trick would do something good but too bad I only tested it on my CRT because when I tested on my DLP, I could see that the PJ compensates for that adjustment so it doesn't have the desired effect. Yes, you did it right and it would have been a good trick if it had worked but the technology is just not the same as a CRT. It looks like it memorizes the image and displays it at the next vertical sync pulse and so that cancels out any fine tuning of the timing of the image between pulses. At this point, I could recommend some other things but the situation doesn't look good right now. I'm starting to think your PJ has an unresolvable(?) color mismatch issue and I would like you to test that in a weird way but first some things that probably won't work.

Use one of Windows' "Restore Points" to restore things back to before you had this problem. That would be some time before March 5th.

Use the Reset function under your projector's help menu.

Change video timing standard - choices are General, Discrete Monitor, Coordinated Video, or Fixed Aspect Ratio Timing (FART). I tried these on my DLP with no effect as expected. Don't bother with this.

Change video signal timing manually - it turns out that changing vertical backporch and frontporch do something similar to what you just tried by moving the image down but it can also squash or stretch the image. This shouldn't help. Don't bother with this. Now for some "fun"...


The spinning-pen test:

( I'll put this in it's own thread later but right now I'll just give you a brief version here. )

This may seem weird but please try it. It will help you and me figure out exactly what is going on with your PJ's colorwheel and it's a technique that you can use with any future DLP PJ or TV you may get.

Step 1. Get a white pen with a clip on it and tie it to about 8 inches of string or rubberbands.
Step 2. set up your eDim dongle and eDim glasses for use with your setup (original TH2Go setup is fine)
Step 3. Start up your PJ and switch to 60 Hz Presentation mode
Step 4. Make the screen all white with a maximized empty text window or bitmap.
Step 5. get edim glasses shuttering with Activator but don't put them on yet.

Step 6. twirl the pen in a circle in the beam of the projector. Don't look at the screen through the twirling pen because it's harder to see the colors that way. See the colors better by offset viewing against a dark background. Now you see the colors of your colorwheel. It should look something like this:



Notice that it's made up of continuous bands of colors probably in this order: red, green, white, blue (RGWB), but how can you tell that red is the first color of a frame? That's next.

Step 7. Repeat step 6 with the glasses on and one eye closed. You will see dark segments where colors are missing. Try to adjust the twirling speed to steady the image but I know it's hard. You should see 12 colors between the dark regions because your PJ has a 4-color wheel and it's speed is 3x so that it spins three times for each frame. Instead of counting 12 colors, just note the first and last colors (expect red first, then blue last) and count 3 blue bands in each sweep of colors. Just to be clear, I expect this pattern: darkness,RGWB,RGWB,RGWB,darkness with a possible thin red band on the end since that's what I see with my old PJ. The purpose of step seven is to get you familiar with the PJ's "normal" colorwheel operation. That's why you're at 60 Hz and you're in Presentation mode because it shows the white band better. For brighter viewing, look and twirl in a direction perpendicular to the beam while standing closer to the PJ. Now you see the standard colorwheel operation. I suspect a different behavior at higher freqs so let's test it. First here's an image of how it would look if your colorwheel only spun once per frame. My old PJ shows 8 colored bands between the dark regions instead of 4, and that proves that it spins twice per frame (if it has 4 colors per cycle). Yours is different.

A shuttered view of a hypothetical 1-color-cycle per frame projector using a 4 segment color wheel (RGWB). Light from every second frame gets blocked creating the dark zones. Now you know that the red band comes first in the color cycle assuming you spin the pen clockwise.


Step 8. de-Activate glasses, change freq to 75 Hz, Activate glasses, repeat step 7. Notice differences between each eye-view. I expect the two views to have different patterns. Try to note the first and last color for each view. From this info, we can tell exactly what the PJs are doing and where the red ghost is coming from. It just takes some analysis.

This all may seem tedious and complicated but I think it's fun so try and have it be fun for you too. I bet you never expected this when I started to "help" you.

awaiting your results,

--- iondrive ---

PS: if you do alot of twirling, rubberbands may be softer on your skin so you don't get a raw patch. I guess you could use yarn or gloves. jeez.
And don't let the pen fly off into someone's eye.

well i have a problem with the inverter setup. I can NOT get the glasses to come on with the inverter plugged into the nvidia emitter?? I tried the ed activator is does not activate the glasses like before??

I am NOT sure what happened but it is not working anymore.. back to square one again..

hmm, alright. Remember sliding the screen down with nvidia's control panel? Slide it back up some or if that doesn't work, then select a different timing mode on the next tab of that window. It shouldn't matter which mode you choose as long as it's different from the current one. Try Discrete Monitor or Fixed Aspect timing modes. I think I may have experienced something similar to this when I was goofing around with my settings.

What are we doing now?
We are trying to determine how your colorwheel behaves at non-60 Hz freqs. My old PJ's colorwheel goes through 2 cycles per frame at 60 Hz, but it goes through 1 1/2 cycles at other freqs. I've been able to reproduce your disappearing red ghost on my old PJ using some old Simuleyes glasses and it's a result of that uneven color-cycle. When looking at a white screen at 85 Hz through shutter glasses, I see 6 colors/frame instead of 8: RGWBRG with one eye and WBRGWB with the other eye. No time delay will balance the colors with IR glasses but wired glasses have a chance if I shorten the clear time on each lens. Then I could cut off the first and last colors so that RGWBRG becomes GWBR, and then WBRGWB becomes BRGW but I think that's too much trouble so I use my other "3d-ready" projector instead. Another reason for not using that idea is because it would darken the screen more and I didn't want that. The question for your PJ is: at 75 Hz, does the colorwheel go through 3 cycles, 2 cycles, or something in-between? If it's in-between, then I think we can give up.

Testing without glasses:
You can use sView without glasses. Open this black and white test image in fullscreen using sView in crosseyed input mode (the default).



You can spin the pen while this is showing and it's like you're looking through a shutterglass even though you're not. This is an excellent reference view since you know there's no shutterglass timing delay since you're not using shutterglasses at all. You can compare this view with the view of the pure white screen viewed through one glass. Differences will be from time delay or light leakage through the dark phase of the glasses. This is how you tell what's going on but don't have a seizure from that black and white image flickering.

After you do this without the glasses, you can use the nvidia glasses with sView and you should be able to see some extra red through one of the lenses. That's your ghost. If you need/want, you can make a pure white version of the image above and use that. Once you know this technique, you can come up with many variations of your own. Then you can answer your own questions about color timing issues.

Tell me if you understand all this from this post and my previous one and say if you think it's a waste of time or fun/interesting. Personally, I think it's awesome to be able to do such precise timing tests with a pen and some string.

--- iondrive ---

ok I think I got it now..

1st test.. RGWB 60hz Presentation mode.. white backround Text Document opened
2nd test RB with red sliver after the Blue.. Glasses on, Right Eye shut 75hz Same with other eye..EDITED!!!!!
3rd test.. RB with red sliver after the Blue.. w/Black and White image NO glasses in Sview 75hz..

I do NOT understand the color Cycles?? can you explain again??



Well I guess with that red band in the last test there is NOTHING I can do about the Ghosting Correct?? OR what do all these tests mean and what can be done??

EDIT: While I do NOT fully understand what this is telling me I thought it was cool and did NOT know this was possible to see the color wheel like this..
But from what I am seeing I have a color mismatch and there will be nothing I can do about the ghosting.. just wierd I never noticed it as much before???

Hi N,

As always, I'm glad to see you did those tests, but oh no, more questions and tests .
But first some talk. The 3rd test above is great news. It tells me that your PJs are putting out full cycles of RGWB and not 2.5 cycles or something odd like that and that is very good. Test 2 is missing the first red but when I do this test, I can see like half a band but it's dim. I think the same is probably true for you too. If you get a good black background, you'll probably see some dim red there. This is dim because the glasses need some time to go from dark to clear.

The red sliver:
Tests 2 and 3 show a red sliver but I also see a red sliver at the end of my color sweeps with my old PJ. I will have to check this with my new PJ. Maybe this is common and I would normally think that it's from the time it takes for the glasses to get dark but you can see this even without the glasses when you use sView with that black and white image. Maybe someday I'll come up with a test to see if it's actually from the current frame's image or the next frame's image but it seems to make more sense that it shouldn't be there. It seems like the right delay circuit could chop this off. Maybe that's the amount of time it takes for the mirrors to go from on to off, but somehow I thought they would be faster than that.

the 85 Hz ink-blotch effect:
Thanks for those earlier links on this. They were interesting and I hadn't heard of it before. I think it's from the glasses changing half-way through the red phase which leads me to my 10th question.

Q10: Would you rather game at 85 Hz? Do the no-glasses black and white sView test at 85 Hz. Get the first and last color and number of white strips in each sweep. If the color sweep goes from red to blue, I think a delay circuit will fix it and you can use it. YAY! Just report anything odd that might be there when you do this test. If things look good, then I'll build you a circuit and hopefully it will work. If you don't want to go this route, then I'll build you a circuit for 75 Hz cause I kind of hate to see you get rid of a good setup and replace three projectors.

Q11: Do you remember how many cycles were in your band of colors? You can just count the white bands in each color-sweep. There should be 3 cycles at 60 Hz but 75 Hz might be 2 or 3. You can skip the 60 Hz check. I'm more interested in the 75 Hz and 85 Hz tests. This question is not that important but I'm just curious to know. It will give me more confidence about what's going on.

Color mismatch:
If both eye-views have the same color pattern, then you do NOT have color mismatch. If you had color mismatch, then one eye would see a different color pattern than the other eye. In my case with my old PJ, one eye sees 6 bands from red to green (RGWBRG) and the other eye sees from white to blue (WBRGWB). That is 1.5 cycles of the colorwheel for each eye. One eye sees too much red and green while the other eye sees too much white and blue. Don't worry about understanding this too much because it looks like you don't have this problem.

Understanding the color cycles:
I think the key to understanding this is to imagine a PJ that has a colorwheel with 4 colors (RGWB, white is just for brightening the image) and imagine that the wheel spins once for each video frame. Do not confuse video frames with the frames-per-second that your game is running at. Game fps could be 30, 90, 4, or anything but your video signal will still put out the same 75 Hz or whatever your display is running at. Just forget all about game fps. If you black out every other frame, then that will cause the dark regions when you spin your pen. In-between the dark regions will be the light that passes through the colorwheel in a sweep that is from just one frame. If it spins once per frame, then you see 4 stripes of different colors. If it spins twice as fast, you see 8 stripes of colors but the stripes are thinner. Oh dang, I forgot to ask if you know about the mirrors. In our case, our DLP projectors work by using a grid of 100's of thousands of microscopic square mirrors that tilt super-fast. Each mirror reflects light from the lamp out through the lens to make a dot on the screen, OR it reflects the light so that it doesn't go out the lens and that results in a black dot on the screen. I guess the colorwheel could be before or after the mirrors to give the white light color. Hopefully that's enough info for you.

Colorblindness???
I still can't figure out why the red would flicker off and on every few seconds. I thought I had an explanation but it doesn't fit your tests. For a while there I thought you might be partially colorblind in one eye. hahaha. Well, I still feel like I should ask. Are you? I would think you would have noticed it by now. That could have explained why the red ghost disappears sometimes.

Yes, I think I should buy that kit from you. I'll PM you. Sorry Dom.

--- iondrive ---

OK THNX for that info.. I have 2 cycles of white @ 75Hz.. I will continue to game at 75hz as at 85 I get a wierd issue with the screen being Chopped off at the edge on the left most monitor right side which totally ruins the picture..

Well as Far as I know I am NOT Partially colorblind or at all. I see Full colors..perhaps it is just a illusion of the red flickering?? I been overtuned to all this stuff now and maybe I imagined the flickering or it was just the scene playing tricks on me???

I will look for it again but have NOT seen it in a while now that I think of it..

OK I'll sell you the kit will check my PM now Thank you..

From you PM I checked all 3 Projectors they ALL have the Sliver of Red..

Ion can you PLEASE check your PM..

I sent the Package through USPS Yesterday should be there in a week or so.. but Probally in a week

hi,

There's not much new here but I'm considering some different designs. It kind of looks like that red sliver is normal but I think I have a way to test it myself. If it's normal then it might be bad to try and cut it off. We'll see how the tests go once I decide on a design. One option is to try and make it compatible with some 120 Hz PJ that you might have in the future but I think I'll just make it for 75 Hz since future projectors probably won't use old 15-pin VGA connectors.

Some odd questions:

Q12: Do you know binary?
Why? I'm considering a design that let's you select timing delay using binary but it's unlikely I'll choose this idea. Once timing is set, you shouldn't have to change it unless you change your refresh rate but that's true for any design.

Q13: Does your computer have a PS2 keyboard connector or is it USB only?
Why? I might decide to modify an old "Another I" dongle that I have but it needs power from a pass-through PS2 connector. The advantage of this dongle is that you would never need to use ED-Activator. It's basically always on and it already has a "reverse" button.

Q14: Are you familiar with the "advanced timing" button/window on the nvidia control panel? Under the vertical section, you should be able to switch sync polarity to negative. Please try this. It should work fine but you might have no indication that it worked. Basically, if you change it to - and hit "Apply" and still have good video, that means it worked even if the box still has a + in it. If it doesn't work, then do nothing and let the timer time-out to revert to the original setting. You don't have to do this if it worries you but I wouldn't expect any problems.
Why? One of the design options is easier if the pulse is negative instead of positive.

As you've probably guessed, delivery of the kit was not urgent or anything. I'll PM you when I get it.

--- iondrive ---

No I do NOT know Binary.. I have a USB Keyboard and mouse..

I was able to set the Vertical timing to NEgative..

hi again,

Hey, I got the kit today and thanks for the extras. Hopefully I can complete the delay and switch circuit within the next two days but Easter weekend might get a little busy. You seem to be a man of action while it takes me too much time to do just a little. Are you gaming with the dongle plugged into the emitter or with glasses upside-down? Now that I have a pair, I see that they don't feel too bad upside-down. I haven't setup the 3dvision yet since I still need to install Vista and configure my system before that. I will work on the circuit first. I think I can do it with just two chips but it'll be set specifically for 75 Hz. I'll test it myself of course as best as I can before I send it. I can just use the same address on the box you sent me, right?

PS2 keyboard port:
It's fine if you use a USB keyboard but does your computer have a PS2 keyboard port? Just look on the back of your computer and see if there are two round ports, normally one purple and one green for the keyboard and mouse respectively. Each port has 6 tiny holes and one small squarish hole for alignment. I think really modern computers don't have these anymore but yours might even though you're not using them. If you have them, I'll probably send you that old dongle I have so that you won't have to use ED-Activator. It's no big deal, I got 4 of them for 5 dollars each before shipping.


Warning: Read the following only if willing to waste time on reading about a crazy idea that probably won't work.

Another crazy idea for fixing parallax inversion: the two kit method
dang, I thought of this idea too late but it might not even work since it's weird. Basically in order for this idea to work, the question that needs answering is this: Can the 3dvision system work with two USB emitters connected simultaneously? One would be like a master and the other like a slave. The slave gets its input through the stereo 3d sync jack and that signal comes from a special circuit. That circuit generates the correct non-parallax-inverted signal by shining a light through one lens of the master glasses and detecting the darkening with a light detector. The light detector outputs a nice square wave that goes to the slave emitter. The glasses themselves provide the proper timing. If it's on the wrong lens, then just setup the light and sensor on the other lens. The master glasses and emitter are hidden in a dark box or somewhere out of sight. Then the two emitters will be 180 degrees out of phase but for maybe some hopefully negligible lag. If it's not negligible, then you still need a delay circuit and this idea is not worth it. Oh wait, I guess instead of two wireless kits, one could try one wired and one wireless. Then the wired glasses could be the master. It's a neat idea but I still think it's a bad one for reasons of cost and it might not work with two emitters, and it uses a pair of glasses that a person then can't use.

sayonara friends

Well I am glad you got the kit and all is well..Take your time on the Little gizmo you are building no rush on that..

I just got another video card so currently I am just wearing the glasses upside down but I am going to put the Inverter back on so I can wear the glasses right..

NO I do NOT have a PS/2 Port.

Yes that does sound like a crazy idea and a little costly wish I knew that before I sent you that kit

Well I will just be good with the Switch/inverter you are going to make and that shoulkd suffice.. Even If that dont work using my current ED Dongle and Inverter seems to work rather well.. just takes a few times turning Stereo Off/On to get the inversion right..

I reallly appreciate all the help and you have motivated me to get this corrected something I have put off for some time hehe!!

Hey Nephilim, I can comfirm that the Nvidia universal 3d glasses I got from you work with Nvidia 3d Vision and also work as said with the parallax button swap eyes.

Since the glasses we got were defective, the right lens not blinking from manufacturing. The left does show 3d and I can see half of 3d when watching on my projector. Now when I did the 3d wizard setup, where it asks you to pick the shapes I could pick either set because once I pressed the button once and the glasses would swap eyes.

So I am confirming that these glasses DO WORK with Nvidia 3d Vision to swap eyes. And the glasses will stop blinking when the nvidia emitter 3d is turned off.

Hey Dom Well I am happy with the way I have it working right now no need to get other glasses..Hopefully somtime in the future I can update these aging Projectors..

Sorry the Late reply but this one slipped by me