Hi Guys,

I have (as the title suggests) a really dumb question. Nvidia's forums have been down for weeks. I'm hoping they will be up soon, but they are down nonetheless. Where did all the Nvidia 3D Vision users go?

I mean, they've always been welcome to post here, and lord knows we have a fun and whacky community. However, I haven't seen them pop up on other forums either! It's as though they are on an Internet hunger strike or something.

Any guesses on where the 3D Vision gamers secretly reside?

Regards,
Neil

Maybe they are <gasp> actually spending their time playing 3D games. Unlike nuts like me that spend more time talking about games than actually playing...

"nuts"?....what? heck I'm President of that honorary club....... and while we're on the subject.... about those back dues.... I take Paypal now.

I think Bloody was expecting some refugees over at the 3Dvision blog forum, but it's pretty quiet over there these days to...

I know! Anton and I discussed this a few weeks ago, and we are equally surprised. It's kind of strange.

Regards,
Neil

I've actually been playing games for first time in a long time lol.
Its like a vacation. The first week when it comes back up will be a nightmare.

Hahaha! Nice!

Regards,
Neil

Hi

I've always looked at these forums (and others) from time to time, but the Nvidia 3d forums were so active and specialised that unless you have an interest in other 3d technologies I suppose it was the only place you really needed to go.
I'm guessing a lot of the users there don't even know about other sites like yours, 3d vison blog etc. etec.

Russell.

ps. Wish Nvidia would pull their fingers out though!! They are taking so long it's just sad. Maybe too many chiefs and not enough indians.

I just don't post in this section because nobody else does hehe. Mostly I missing actual topics from over at the nvidia forums though. Like the helix mod topic. Most movement there is in making games compatible, nvidia don't seem to be moving much themselves...

Nvidia hasnt been active in forum but to give them credit. They have been talking to many developers and pushing 3d vision. Which is much more important imo. I used to be worried for the future but its looking good. Plenty of games that arent even nearing release have announced 3d vision support. Even online ones, which is shocking since its that much harder to keep up.
I am sure that it will be up soon though, and I will be back.....spamming though I like to think of it as assisting.
Though I am surprised not many people transitioned over here as well. MTBS has a great community, and has much less of the angry rants(you know what I am talking about). Many interesting posts, so many people have their own interesting projects.

Didn't mean in forum, although they could have a little more presence there. I was referring mostly to missing quite needed options, some of which have actually been promised to be put on the roadmap months/years ago (guess they have a very large roadmap). Just one of them is a user configurable monitor size option that sticks.

Also while I'm not saying it's easy to make shader fixes with Helix Mod, and you are doing a great job there, thx, I do believe nvidia should have fixed a lot of these themselves. Of course getting support from the developers themselves so these fixes aren't even necessary is ultimately a better solution, but it would be nice to see more results of that. Even when new games are rated 3d vision ready they often are not. Of course their entire rating list should just be deleted and finally started anew as there are still pre 3dvision games listed that don't even work.

Screen size is a bit of a pain. I have a projector and have got used to hitting my .bat right before starting a game but I could imagine the average user not even knowing they are getting too little/too much depth.

Well even if it was easy, its a big time constraint. I don't blaim you for thinking so though. When Helix first started I said, well now that nvidia knows it can be done they will have to do it. Ive since learned how much work/time goes into fixing a game. Even if I know HOW via knowing the issues/solutions(from helix). It takes INSANE amount of hours to fix some games. Spec: Ops alone probably took me 7 times as long as an average players playthroughs. If nvidia fixed/did everything we want. They'd literally go out of business. I do agree very highly with their new active stance with talking to developer. They also seem to be more so then ever requiring the games they sponsor to use 3d vision. I actually know which games ahead of time are sponsored by nvidia due to this.
Borderlands 2, Mechwarrior Online as an example.
I have faith though that nvidia is working on addressing some 3D vision issues though.

I do agree about rating list. Some of them are very insane. Ghostbusters the game which I just did. Says this, Disable in game crosshair, nvidia's laser sight is 2D. Which is like saying in case of fire use the stairwell, stairwell is closed for repairs. Which made me chuckle.

I'm not limiting this statement to Nvidia: with respect to proprietary (i.e. secret handshake) compatibility efforts, my faith in them remains very low. Here is a perfect example of why GameGrade3D and the merits of an independent rating system hold true, and why the branded marketing splashes are meaningless until after the product is released and independently reviewed and tested:

Carrier Command: Gaea Mission has been well promoted as having 3D Vision support. So much so, they sent a media email blast featuring Nvidia 3D Vision screenshots to demonstrate their 3D compatibility.

Tell me if you think this looks like an Nvidia 3D Vision Ready game.









To be fair, these screenshots don't tell us anything about the game quality itself. What they did was move the depth settings to absolute max, and sent them out to everyone. Unless your eyes are a foot apart, these images are un-viewable, and raises the question of whether or not the developers received the tools and education they needed to put out a really good 3D game (what 3D expert would blindly max out the depth and send it to all the press?!?). Do they even care how their game looks, or is it enough to just have a stamp on their box? Imagine all the teary eyed journalists scratching their heads wondering if this is how 3D is supposed to be seen (it isn't!!!). The game COULD be good in 3D, but it's just such a grievous error, I think I have legitimate concerns. I will be equally upset if the convergence controls are locked away - we'll have to wait and see.

This isn't unique to Nvidia. EA's Battlefield 3 with 3D Support had very mixed results - especially with AMD HD3D native output (reversed images, missing 3D effects, etc.). A third party (DDD) had to step in to improve the results to true stereoscopic 3D gaming levels. So I appreciate that there is some progress where companies are talking about 3D gaming to developers and working to get their stamp of approval on game boxes. Unfortunately, if it came down the right to announce a marketing claim, or accurate Quality Assurance, marketing will always win. This is why no single brand should be in a voluntary conflict of interest and be able to arbitrarily claim compatibility at face value - nobody really wins.

Now, if there was a private brand AND an independent working cooperatively, that would make for an awesome mix for everyone, and 3D mishaps like this could be completely avoided.

Regards,
Neil

Those images look horrible. They are uncomfortable to look at, and don't actually have any 3D effect (no camera separation).

@Neil you are used tridef/amd. Besides weird convergence values(I talk about further down), theres nothing wrong with those images(Besides third). Its something I have to deal with all the time since I have a projector screen. Took me a long time to adjust whenever someone sent me screenshots and I was like thanks for making me blind. If you are using a big screen its probably unbearable though I am used to it. Tridef/amd doesnt allow the depth settings to go as high as nvidias as well. Doesnt bother you if you have a big screen I guess though if you have a monitor you get alot less.
Here is a picture of spec ops the line running at 100% depth on a 65" screen(I have to modify settings because projector is set 80" default according to nvidia which offers too little depth imo). Ignore red writing. I was working on something and had game open. https://s3.amazonaws.com/eqz/SpecOpsTheLine68_50.jps
Here is a picture of spec ops the line running at 100% depth on a much smaller screen.(Take off your glasses, I set this to a value they'd give laptops) https://s3.amazonaws.com/eqz/SpecOpsTheLine67_50.jps
Seperation is much more massive then images you were sent. I am guessing they had a 24". If you have a 3d vision system available I recommend checking out 3dvisionlive. They are all at around that depth.

I looked at the 4 images in full screen on 70" projector since I wanted to scan for issues. My screensize in relation to screensize used to take pictures made the higher convergence images uncomfortable. Top to bottom(not by name)

First image: Depth setting is extremely high (to be expected for my setup),Convergence is higher then comfortable with.No visual issues.
Second image: Similiar. I am a little uncomfortable viewing image but again its to be expected. No visual issues.
Third image: Is comfortable for me, depth is at value close to one above but convergence is even lower so I do not mind looking at it. However their appears to be a wierd ripple effect in sky corners, I assume tearing. I can not tell what this is caused by since its a single screenshot but also a strange light/reflection is generating from left ripple. The slant indicates that its coming from behind the clouds where sun should be so, this does not explain ripple on right side. The ripples are limited to sky. If it helps to explain. Save the image as .jpg, do not view in 3d. It seems to be two different issues at "dusk". I am judgeing based on a single image though so I cant really say.
Fourth image: Appears flat due to convergence, though it was harder to tell depth setting with above images this one appears to have less depth. No visual issues.

I believe nvidia is being more strict due to the nature of past incidents with games only be testing at minimal depth. It appears that image batch you were sent is what they sent to nvidia to show that the game does not "break at any value". However I haven't seen the HUD/gameplay and I wouldnt trust a game based on panoramic views.

If the images are uncomfortable to you, you can download then shrink the image. (grab corner till image is small enough that your are comfortable with.) I believe this was tested on one of the smaller sized monitors at 100% depth. The images remind me of when the game Metro 2033 came out and a wave of 3D vision users came(small lcd monitors at the time). Everyone either didnt know how to adjust convergence or went crazy for the pop-out(and probably stopped using 3d vision shortly after due to eye aches/headaches). I believe this "media blast" or whatever they called it was they sent into nvidia and used as an excuse to publicize the game which is understandable. Though that third image does strike me as odd, the game may not be trying to achieve 3d vision ready though. I would reserve my judgement based on one image though, do you have more by any chance? Hopefully something non panornamic showing hud/gameplay?

Hi Eqzitara1,

Couple things. First, this isn't about being used to AMD or DDD. I test everything on Nvidia too, and I have displays ranging from 23" to 27". I'm afraid I don't have a 3D projector yet. These images are way off base on anything you would choose to watch them on. Even with the postage stamp images shown above, the separation levels are completely disjointed.

It's incorrect to say that DDD doesn't have competitive depth range. On the contrary, with the more advanced custom focus settings, you can separate until your eyes are on opposite ends of the room, though I see no point to this. AMD HD3D Native is a separate thing, and that's up to the game developer.

That said, I think there is a miscommunication here. Here is an excerpt from the mail blast that went out to PRESS:


-----

Carrier Command: Gaea Mission Receives NVIDIA 3D Vision Support

Prague, Czech Republic - August 9, 2012 - As part of bringing Carrier Command to the modern age, Bohemia Interactive today announced that Carrier Command: Gaea Mission will have NVIDIA 3D Vision® support for the Windows PC version. The enhanced perception of depth blends perfectly with the game's futuristic setting. Those who expect gaming to drive the consumer adoption of 3D will see their belief fueled by the cutting edge 3D implementation in Carrier Command: Gaea Mission.

"Supporting 3D Vision reaffirms the philosophy behind our game's 'NVIDIA: The Way It's Meant to be Played' label," said Bohemia Interactive executive producer Jan Kunt. "Although personal preference will always be a factor, I think for many it will be part of the optimal experience and draw them even deeper into our game."

Carrier Command: Gaea Mission will also be playable at Bohemia Interactive's booth at Gamescom. Attendees are welcome to demo the Windows PC and Xbox 360® version of the game.

For more information on NVIDIA 3D Vision®, visit: http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-main.html

To learn more about Carrier Command: Gaea Mission, check out the walkthrough trailer here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixof-pOvPbA

-----

So let's be honest with ourselves. If you were a game developer or company that was announcing the importance of your 3D strategy, and having a basic knowledge that 99.99% of readers are not 3D experts (though they probably have 3D displays to test with)...do you really feel confident that they truly understand 3D, or is this just marketing lip service?

I'm not going to delve into whether or not the game is truly 3D Ready - there is no way to tell with these images. However, even though I had a kind exchange with the developer to inform them of the problems, I have yet to see a follow-up email blast indicating that the images were an error and that a new batch is coming. Their lack of action suggests that these are the images they think accurately represent their product, and that's plenty cause to feel troubled.

Regards,
Neil

I just wanted to add that you should upload those images to the gallery and share them here in the forum so people can see what you are talking about directly.

1. Go to http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery
2. Choose hosting for site/forum linking (first option).
3. Choose hosting for forum/
4. Press "Upload" at the top of the screen.

The correct sub forum is already selected for you. Now you just have to select the files you want to upload, and it does the rest. All you really need to do is fill in the image descriptions, but that's about it. Once done, just copy the stimg BBCode to the forum, and voila! 3D posting!

Just be sure to rename the .JPS to .JPG so the gallery can accept the files.

Regards,
Neil

I think the misconception is that Nvidia and others don't have any 3d cues and only depth cues where they don't want to make anomolies. The depth is the window you see into where everything is sunk in where the 3d cue is the volume of polygons and the convergence is the hologram effect floating in your room.

You also set the depth to what size your face and eyes are not to make the 3d better.

No point even playing games in 3d for me untill its resolved.

Its all wrong!

Can you try explaining this a different way? I'm not sure I understand.

Regards,
Neil

I don't really know what the 3d cue is but it has something to do with camera separation and parallax between objects, polygon objects, or static display pixels on axis.

I see how stereoscopic 3d works by three things so far. Depth-sink in-window-plain-2d similar, 3D volume-tangable-miniatures-dollhouse-cubedspace and convergence-hologram-popout or out of screen effects.

From seeing with my own eyes without really converging my eyes all I see is depth. I played NHL 2008 last night and had to stop playing in 3d because it was to stupid in 3d.

I don't want to converge my eyes, head ache city. I'm not mad just that i've seen better 3d from nvidia.

Regarding the Carrier Command screenshots:

I'll throw in with the lot who think these screenshots are a terrible representation of a proper 3D experience. Everyone has their own preferences for depth and convergence settings. But blowing out the depth to painfully high separation, with convergence settings too low to perceive the distance between objects, is likely to please no one.

I hate to say it, but based on those screenshots where everything seems to render properly, it will probably warrant at least an Excellent from nVidia. I have played a number of games that required super-low convergence, lest the UI split off the screen. The game world looks entirely flat, but that's okay for nVidia. They rated three such games I've played, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines and Tomb Raider Legend, as "Excellent." Fortunately, I was able to use the Helix Mod to fix the UI in these games, but they are poor S3D experiences otherwise.

@Eqzitara:

The separation on your Spec Ops screenshot is much less than the Carrier Command screenshots. A particular stereoscopic image has more apparent separation on large screens than small screens (depending on your distance away). The nVidia drivers allow less maximum separation (when measured as a percentage of display size), the bigger the screen gets. That's why if we want to use the hack that allows higher separation, we have to decrease the display size. Your screenshot at 100% depth when using your projector is actually pretty mild to those of us looking at it with monitors on a desk.

If these screens had higher convergence settings, we could at least decrease the separation in an image viewer and get a good idea of the game's stereoscopic performance. Hopefully Neil's communication with the developer will bear fruit there. I've been hoping Bohemia's other upcoming game, Arma 3, would be a great S3D experience.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Battlefield 3, which is rated "3D Vision Ready," has awful default convergence settings that make the game world look nearly flat. It can be increased to a decent level, but by then the entire gun is painfully popping out of the screen. BF3 does not earn a 3D Vision Ready from me.

Here's a video of what I'm talking about. I didn't increase convergence until after the first few screens in the subway. I would have liked to increase convergence a bit more, but I had to compromise due to the gun. If this could be "3D Vision Ready" (even back when the convergence was locked!), then Carrier Command can be, too.