The iZ3D Driver + Shutter Glasses Thread

Post by **Bo_Fox** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:53 am

Bo_Fox wrote:What I did is:

1) Go to http://edimensional.com/support_updates.php

and download E-D Activator from there. It's a very small program that when launched, it goes to your system tray.

2) By right-clicking on the system tray, I place a check next to the Page Flip mode rather than Interleaved mode.

3) I launch the game (Portal, for example) and then press Ctrl + F10 to "activate" the shutterglasses so that they start blinking. (Or before launching the game, you could turn on the S3D glasses by checking Stereo-On/Resync in the system tray so that you do not have to press Ctrl + F10 in the game)

4) I press Num* to toggle Stereo3D using IZ3D's drivers. And then increase the separation to like 50%.

It works perfectly fine as long as the frame rate is above the refresh rate. If I fire the gun, the frame rate drops below the refresh, only letting me see S-3D for one eye rather than both eyes. After a few seconds of moving around, it returns to normal S-3D.

Anyways, where do I place the MarkingSpecXml file? Is it supposed to help maintain correct S-3D if the frame rates drop?

oops double post

Post by **BlackQ** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:21 am

Hi, guys!

Let me make some summary here:

1. simple shutter output - done as promised - driver generates LRLR signal, but sync is an issue as we expected - if you think this output is senseless we can remove it
2. marked shutter output - we decided to release it also to potential cooperator who can make any device in between of iZ3D driver and shutter glasses
3. only things we can use for better synchronization is VSync and in some cases it works if fps is higher than refresh rate
4. nothing else we can do atm because of:
a. no API (for both nVidia and ATI) to access this level
b. no way to interrupt rendering thread to insert own sync signal

It does not mean we are not going to continue our search - we'lll continue. Good luck to all of us!

Post by **Bo_Fox** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:45 pm

BlackQ wrote:Hi, guys!

Let me make some summary here:

1. simple shutter output - done as promised - driver generates LRLR signal, but sync is an issue as we expected - if you think this output is senseless we can remove it
2. marked shutter output - we decided to release it also to potential cooperator who can make any device in between of iZ3D driver and shutter glasses
3. only things we can use for better synchronization is VSync and in some cases it works if fps is higher than refresh rate
4. nothing else we can do atm because of:
a. no API (for both nVidia and ATI) to access this level
b. no way to interrupt rendering thread to insert own sync signal

It does not mean we are not going to continue our search - we'lll continue. Good luck to all of us!

Thanks so much for trying to implement support for shutter glasses!!! I was impressed at how it actually worked in Portal as long as the frame rates exceeded the refresh rate (which had to be set at over 100Hz for flicker-free play). It actually worked in Vista x64 edition!

Never mind my question about the XML file.. I figured it out now what the file was for. Oh well..

Post by **chrisjarram** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:27 am

BlackQ wrote:Hi, guys!

Let me make some summary here:

1. simple shutter output - done as promised - driver generates LRLR signal, but sync is an issue as we expected - if you think this output is senseless we can remove it
2. marked shutter output - we decided to release it also to potential cooperator who can make any device in between of iZ3D driver and shutter glasses
3. only things we can use for better synchronization is VSync and in some cases it works if fps is higher than refresh rate
4. nothing else we can do atm because of:
a. no API (for both nVidia and ATI) to access this level
b. no way to interrupt rendering thread to insert own sync signal

It does not mean we are not going to continue our search - we'lll continue. Good luck to all of us!

BlackQ, the mere thought of you 'removing' the shutter output doesnt even bare thinking about!? :s Many people have waited months and months for this functionality since you claimed you would be supporting it, so surely this is an extremely important issue (see how many hits this thread has had!). It is not done as promised as it does not generate an LRLRLR signal, it can sometimes be LRLRLRRRLRLLRR etc.

The marked shutter output is also pretty unusable as this would result in significant glasses flicker.

It is not the sync signal that is the issue, it is access to the page-flipping buffers. Sync can be generated via a simple square wave converted from the V-sync output of any card - there are extrenal modules out there which convert a vertical sync output to the standard 3-pin DDC signal required by a lot of shutter glasses.

You need to access the page-flipping capability of the graphics card to guarantee a LRLRLR output - thats your side of things. This is certainly a bug as it renders the feature useless without it.
Personally I've had an 8800 working on a CRT with 8800 Ultra running PRAY, with no problems whatsoever, so I know for a fact eDimensional have page-flipping working with their own driver. Certaintly if they can do it, iz3d can!

With respect, it would really be very,very bad if iz3d gave up on this - there is definatley a solution out there and you are in a very good position to find it. I know you have said you will carry on looking, I just find it surprising as a 3d driver software house you cannot recruit the expertise to be able to do this.

Post by **LukePC1** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:11 am

chrisjarram wrote: [...]
You need to access the page-flipping capability of the graphics card to guarantee a LRLRLR output - thats your side of things. This is certainly a bug as it renders the feature useless without it.
Personally I've had an 8800 working on a CRT with 8800 Ultra running PRAY, with no problems whatsoever, so I know for a fact eDimensional have page-flipping working with their own driver. Certaintly if they can do it, iz3d can!

With respect, it would really be very,very bad if iz3d gave up on this - there is definatley a solution out there and you are in a very good position to find it. I know you have said you will carry on looking, I just find it surprising as a 3d driver software house you cannot recruit the expertise to be able to do this.

If you were using Ed driver, you were using interlaced. IZ3D can do that better.
If not, you used the hacked NV drivers wich work for G80 chips sometimes.

@ Topic:
What does Triple buffering do? Can't you heck that, so that it flips first and second buffer efery frame? In the third buffer the new frame for either left or right would be rendered. That method wouldn't need quadbuffered, but that is not the problem right?
I bet you are working on this and a removal for Pageflipping output is only temporally until it works better.

Has anyone with an interlaced 3D dongle tried to run a higher resolution, so that the screen (DLP) interpolates the image and does NOT display the black lines? That would bring 100% sync @ 100% Frequency @ 100% resolution

Post by **BlackQ** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:55 am

I'd like to hire expertise (don't propose nVidia pls

), but we did not find yet any - again we preparing LRLR, but GPU is sending them out and we can not interrupt this process - we'll try to search further

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:03 am

Thanks BlackQ. I guess we are all relieved that ya'll are still working on it hard

I do have a question for people using interlacing though.

I recently pulled my ED glasses out of retirement. Even with ED.exe activated, the glasses do not "flicker" at all. there is no signal on the wireless emitter lines. Have also tested the wired version.

Can anyone help? I haven't tried interlaced in years and im very rusty. I think it might be a hardware incompatibility or msaybe the dongle has just decided to die

Guess this should be in the tech support section but even here, I would appreciate any help

-- Shahzad

Post by **yuriythebest** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:30 pm

RAGEdemon wrote: I recently pulled my ED glasses out of retirement. Even with ED.exe activated, the glasses do not "flicker" at all. there is no signal on the wireless emitter lines. Have also tested the wired version.

right this is probably a silly question have you tried right clicking it and selecting "interlaced", and activating them?
Also make sure the screen you want to use for 3d is your primary screen.

other than that no idea.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:52 pm

Hi yuriythebest1,

thanks for the reply mate.

Unfortunately, I've already tried that

Looks more and more like I have a dead dongle

-- Shahzad.

Post by **The_Doctor** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:07 pm

I have a pair of something else (not edim) and they have the same kind of program that you select what type you want to use (interlace/shutters etc). With the nvidia driver and shutter it would just start by itself, no need to even install that small "activator". I can't get them to start at all with the iz3d driver, shutter or interlaced mode even when selecting it in that activator and starting it. The other pair I have have a button on the wire and that switches between the modes (doesn't use software to select the type) and they start fine.

RAGEdemon wrote:Hi yuriythebest1,

thanks for the reply mate.

Unfortunately, I've already tried that

Looks more and more like I have a dead dongle

-- Shahzad.

Post by **shonofear** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:14 pm

hey RAGE.
I sumtimes have a probs gettin it to actually activate also.

some solutions that can help are...

1). change your current resolution/refresh rate then try activate it again.

2). Fresh restart

thats all i usually do to get it to work

all the best

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:29 pm

Thanks shonofear,

I tried it but still doesn't work.

I think this is revenge for not using them for so long

Post by **Bo_Fox** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:40 am

Umm, try Page Flip mode with the E-D.exe? Those are DDC shutterglasses we're talking about, and they use page-flip mode.

Post by **chrisjarram** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:38 am

Research has now shown me (with a GTX 280 and the latest B2 driver) the Stereographics Stereo Enabler in conunction with BLC (which can be acheived with tweaks to the marker specs) is a viable solution for projectors used with high end cards such as the 200 series. BlackQ is investigating another possible render thread hack apparently, failing that though this may be a good intermediate solution. On a lot of modern games frame rates that never drop below 100fps are easily acheivable (don't even think about citing Crysis, thats obviously an exception to this rule!).

If the other lines of enquiry fall through, I've asked BlackQ for changes to the way the markers are specified instead - I'll then purchase a SG Enabler (which will work with the Edimenstional glasses and other 3 Pin VESA standard solutions) the minute these are published, and post my findings here (along with a mondified XML file to be used with a newer driver release).

Of course, this does restrict use to higher end cards at the moment, but if this is the only way this can be done then what better excuse to upgrade

Post by **genetic** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:51 pm

Mercy Yamada wrote:@genetic
@RAGEdemon

My Z800 works with the iZ3D driver.
I am impressed!!

If anyone has gotten the z800 to work can you please tell me what you did?

Post by **CarlKenner** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:23 am

I assume they upgraded the firmware. Without the upgraded firmware the Z800 only supports nvidia stereo. With the upgraded firmware the Z800 also supports page-flipping, but there is no way to sync it, you just need a swap-eyes key and to keep the frame-rate high.

The firmware can only be upgraded by physically removing and replacing the chip.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:46 am

CarlKenner, Thank You for the info.

Would you, by chance, know what version of firmware is compatible with page-flipping?

Thanks in advance,
-- Shahzad.

Post by **genetic** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:38 pm

that would be: v6.38

At $25 plus shipping I was hoping that Mercy Yamada or someone could confirm that it was needed or not.

Post by **b4thman** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:07 am

RAGEdemon wrote: I recently pulled my ED glasses out of retirement. Even with ED.exe activated, the glasses do not "flicker" at all. there is no signal on the wireless emitter lines. Have also tested the wired version.

Can anyone help? I haven't tried interlaced in years and im very rusty. I think it might be a hardware incompatibility or msaybe the dongle has just decided to die
-- Shahzad

Here my edimensional wireless glasses are working with ed-activator (interleaved-StereoNormal-LCDMode1). Choosing S3DShutter-Marked in iZ3D driver gives me Stereo3d (loosing half of the resolution) in Tomb Raider Anniversary (I´ve played only one minute). I´m using iz3d driver 1.09b2 and Windows XP.

Post by **XYandZ** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:51 am

BlackQ:

If you had complete control of turning on/off the left and right LCD's on shutterglasses would that work?

The reason I am asking is that I built a circuit that allows me to use the computer's RS232 serial port to control the shutterglasses manually in my stereo3d programming experiments:

http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/sega3d.html

Post by **BlackQ** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:15 pm

Hi, XYandZ!

Let me discuss this with our developers tomorrow (Monday) and I'll return back to you

Post by **LukePC1** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:43 pm

XYandZ wrote:BlackQ:

If you had complete control of turning on/off the left and right LCD's on shutterglasses would that work?

The reason I am asking is that I built a circuit that allows me to use the computer's RS232 serial port to control the shutterglasses manually in my stereo3d programming experiments:

http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/sega3d.html

I guess it could work limited. The problem now is, they don't have fast access to the backbuffers, like NV seems to have it.

However it should be possible to get a refresh rate (the flickering) about as high as your 2D FPS are. So if you have a high end System and play not too recent titles or turn off some specs you should have a good refreshrate with a super high FPS as a 'bonus'.

Example: HL2 engine based games run easyly at (nearly) 120FPS in 2D. Now every second or third frame switches the left and right, so you get an equivalent of 100hz with NV drivers.
It may be lower at complex scenes and higer at simple scenes. But you would get allways a very high Frame rate or heavy flickering.

But since many games need to be very fluent anyway it's still not the worst thing to do.

Oh and for comparison: with NV driver you need still 30+ S-3D FPS = 60+ 2D FPS That means you'd 'only' need about 50-100% more performance than with NV shutters or turn things down.

But maybe my guess is completly wrong

Post by **syn2k** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:53 pm

Hello. I don't know alot about 3-D gaming, but I have heard that IZ3D is being made compatible with shutter glasses now. Would it be possible to use IZ3D with the TriDef shutter glasses (made to work with a DLP TV), and would the experience match that of the TriDef glasses with TriDef software?

Thanks.

-Syn

Post by **Okta** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:32 pm

syn2k wrote:Hello. I don't know alot about 3-D gaming, but I have heard that IZ3D is being made compatible with shutter glasses now. Would it be possible to use IZ3D with the TriDef shutter glasses (made to work with a DLP TV), and would the experience match that of the TriDef glasses with TriDef software?

Thanks.

-Syn

http://mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t ... t=iz3d+dlp

Not sure about using the Tridef shutters but normal shutters appear to work somewhat.

Post by **syn2k** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:31 pm

What exactly do you mean by "normal" shutters? Elsa Revelators as mentioned in that link? What brands are "normal" shutters? And are they as good as the TriDef ones? If it works with eDimension glasses I thought it might work with the TriDef ones.

-Syn

Post by **Okta** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:25 pm

Im just not sure on the connections used for each type of shutters.

Post by **syn2k** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:41 am

The Tridef shutters use an I.R. emitter connected to the "3-D sync out" of the Samsung TV. Do you think Tridef's shutter glasses would work with IZ3D?

-Syn

Post by **BlackQ** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:45 am

I assume TriDef shutter will work with Samsung 3D DLP TV connected to PC with iZ3D driver in 3D checkerboard mode

Post by **syn2k** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:51 am

Sounds great. I assume shutter glasses are better than the regular IZ3D glasses. And IZ3D supports way more games than TriDef's software does. I'm new to all this 3-D gaming stuff, thanks for answering all of my questions.

-Syn

Post by **BlackQ** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:10 am

regular iZ3D glasses are passive (like sunglasses) and work only with iZ3D monitor, but iZ3D driver enables 3D for wider spectrum of 3D devices, including Samsung 3D DLP TV

Post by **BlackQ** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:14 am

to XYandZ:

Looks like this scheme will not help a lot - we need to give you left and right exactly at the right moment, but we can not do it yet - this process is under graphics card main driver control

Post by **XYandZ** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:03 am

BlackQ:

Looks like this scheme will not help a lot - we need to give you left and right exactly at the right moment, but we can not do it yet - this process is under graphics card main driver control

I was afraid that might be the case.

Thanks for taking the time and for the prompt response though.

Post by **Okta** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:38 am

Something i dont understand if someone could clear up for me. Why does interlaced shutter work with iz3d but normal shutter lose synch? Are they not both page flipping that require the same level of synch to work?

Post by **BlackQ** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:53 am

nop - interlace is left and right together in one frame, but interlaced line by line - no sync is necessary for LR then - flipping is different story - device need to take LR at right time, but graphic card does not give us a chance yet to interrupt internal processes to give LR to device at right time

Post by **LukePC1** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:28 am

Okta wrote:Something i dont understand if someone could clear up for me. Why does interlaced shutter work with iz3d but normal shutter lose synch? Are they not both page flipping that require the same level of synch to work?

right like BlackQ said the DONGLE of for example the ED Glasses does the sync. So it either has internal memory or 'just' skipps every second line.

I'm not shure, but maybe it's even able to double the sync which comes from the GPU

Post by **VadersApp** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:12 am

BlackQ wrote:nop - interlace is left and right together in one frame, but interlaced line by line - no sync is necessary for LR then - flipping is different story - device need to take LR at right time, but graphic card does not give us a chance yet to interrupt internal processes to give LR to device at right time

But maybe there is hope that ATI will give you information to do it? I think nvidia isn´t so interested in it.

Post by **chrisdfw** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:13 am

Yes, please let us know if you will be able to properly support shutter glasses with ATI graphics cards now that they are a partner.

I would be SO THRILLED to stomp on my old Nvidia card and move on to ATI after the poor choices Nvidia has made over the last 2 years in regards to dropping the most common 3d hardware types to force you to buy their glasses...if and when they ever come out...

Post by **LukePC1** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:22 pm

The 'normal' way does not seem to work here. My Idea is to use a micro controller and a "photo transistor" to sync. How does this sound?

The photo transistor should be able to tell when it's time to shutter and the microcontroller can contoll the output perfectly. At 100hz it could wait 10ms and decide then wheter to swap eyes or not...

I've got no Idea if it could do the trick. This would only work with marked shutter of course, but if the hardware was there maybe Iz3D would make a little box in black and white to tell the controller what to do...

Or maybe we could use the VR920 USB output somehow with a micro controller...

Post by **syn2k** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:49 pm

So would the graphics quality be a little bit worse than full 1080P with the IZ3D software and TriDef glasses? Is it 1080i actually, instead? It should still be cool, but someone clear me up on this.

Post by **LukePC1** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:03 pm

syn2k wrote:So would the graphics quality be a little bit worse than full 1080P with the IZ3D software and TriDef glasses? Is it 1080i actually, instead? It should still be cool, but someone clear me up on this.

Yep it is like interlaced, but the pixels are arranged in a different manner. This thread is about real pageflipping and not checkerboard output by the way. The two have completly different problems.

please see here, too:
http://mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2128&start=15

The iZ3D Driver + Shutter Glasses Thread

TriDef shutterglasses

Re: TriDef shutterglasses