Will there be affordable "standard" 3D HDTVs by end of 2010?

Post by **ssiu** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:50 am

This is a companion thread to Price on S-3D? Crucial? (starting a new thread to add a Poll)

By year-end 2010, there will be 3D Blu-Ray players and 3D HDTVs from Sony and Panasonic and others. Currently you can get a 50" 1080p plasma TV for ~$1000 (e.g. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp ... 8064394819), and it seems technically feasible to add full-HD 3D to such mainstream-priced models and sell them for ~$1500 (with 1 or 2 pairs of glasses). But manufacturers may initially limit 3D to their high-end models only for non-technical reasons.

So the poll question is: do you think some manufacturers will want to see faster 3D adoption, and thus offer at least one "affordable" 3D HDTV initially? Or do you think the manufacturers will only offer 3D on high-end models initially, in attempt to maximize their short-term profit etc.?

Personally, I am not the type that buy high-end products. If it seems unlikely there will be affordable 3D models next year, then maybe I will just buy an existing "pre-standard" 3D TVs available today (and hope for the best that there will be 3D Blu-Ray solutions for my TV later, probably via a software player).

Post by **DmitryKo** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:05 pm

There are affordable 3DTVs starting from $1599, and you can buy them now in the North America. I'm talking about Mitsubishi 737/837 and 735/835 series DLP TVs. To pity, it seems like Samsung has boiled out of DLP TV market...
http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/theater.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dlp.com/hdtv/3-d_dlp_hdtv.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for active glassses 120 Hz solutions, I think Sony will definitely place its first stereo LCD TVs in the premium segment. True 120Hz LCD will require lots of research and Sony will have to make returns.

On the other hand, Panasonic could feature 3D function in every plasma TV for little to no additional cost, but it doesn't look like they already decided on pricing and branding, judging by their 3DTV FAQ.

As for passive polarized line-interleaved solutions, I just don't think they will catch on.

Post by **ssiu** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:28 pm

DmitryKo wrote:There are affordable 3DTVs starting from $1599, and you can buy them now in the North America. I'm talking about Mitsubishi 737/837 and 735/835 series DLP TVs. To pity, it seems like Samsung has boiled out of DLP TV market...
http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/theater.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dlp.com/hdtv/3-d_dlp_hdtv.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes I know and am thinking about them, but there are no assurances that these half-resolution "pre-standard" 3D TVs will be compatible with future 3D Blu-Ray players / 3D set-top box from cable/satellite companies etc.

DmitryKo wrote: On the other hand, Panasonic could feature 3D function in every plasma TV for little to no additional cost, but it doesn't look like they already decided on pricing and branding, judging by their 3DTV FAQ.

Doesn't sound too promising: "A: We are studying a higher-end television. There are no ideas yet regarding price differences." (from http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4335, my emphasis)

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:08 pm

No doubt 3D HDTVs will demand a premium. I'd say they will start at around $2,500 for a model in the 42"-50" class. In terms of the raw hardware I doubt they are *that* much more expensive to make than a standard 2D HDTV. But there was clearly R&D involved plus the fact that its a niche market I'm sure they will cater to the high-end. Joe 6-Pack looking to get a no-name $500 HDTV is not interested in 3D and that is not the segment of the market they are targeting. Specifically I have a feeling Sony is going to go overboard with the price, but I can see Panasonic catering to the mid-range in an effort to gain market share. Probably by the holiday shopping season 2010 there will be at least one model that is under $2,000 and that would be considered a deal. Keep in mind I am talking about the next-gen full 1080P 3D sets, not the 3D-ready tvs on the market today.

Post by **GordoSan** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:06 am

I don't see a reason for them to be more expensive at all, after a year or so. I mean the technology for 1080p has been in place for a while now and they always need to progress at something. Look at all of the 120Hz LCDs on the market this year. Sure, this has more to do with the slow response time of the LCD tech than 3D, but I think we are really seeing a trend toward 120Hz in every set. I honestly think that having 120Hz (input and processing) and 1080p will be almost a standard feature by 2011.

The passive tech seems to cost a bit more right now, but once they get that ramped up, I think it will also become a minimal extra. Early adopters always get slapped with the R&D bill. Thats just the way it works. When you compare the premium to say 1080p just 2 yrs ago or more, it really isn't that bad at all.

Post by **DmitryKo** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:03 am

GordoSan wrote: this has more to do with the slow response time of the LCD tech than 3D, but I think we are really seeing a trend toward 120Hz in every set.

120 Hz for displaying linear interpolations of 24p signal is not the same as for 120 Hz displaying two substantially different pictures. In the case of "movie enhancement", some pixel noise is perfectly tolerable, because inter-frame interpolation basically adds something not present in the original picture (picture noise, if you like) to project a sense of smoother movement. For 120 Hz stereo gaming, any pixel noise and imperfect transitions will be immediately noticeable, because any two sequential frames are substantially different, so these imperfections will result in inter-image bleeding and will be perceived as a three-dimensional noise.

Remember those older LCD monitors with pixel response times of more than 16 ms. Image artifacts were easily noticeable by gamers, though watching movies was perfectly OK. Many monitor reviewers even began to expressly test for both pixel reaction times and input lag, going as far as setting up a dual rig consisting of some CRT monitor and a test LCD monitor in a clone mode, and using digital photography to capture and compare the images on the two monitors. Until fast 2ms TN+film panels started to apperar, the difference was perfectly noticeable, and that's why overdriven TN+film panels became the choice of gamers, while more precise but slower S-IPS and xPVA panels were practically left to the graphics designer and photo editing niche.

ssiu wrote:there are no assurances that these half-resolution "pre-standard" 3D TVs will be compatible with future 3D Blu-Ray players / 3D set-top box from cable/satellite companies etc.

Yes, but once the stereo display link standard is determined, be it dual-link HDMI, dual HDMI, or DisplayPort, Mitsubishi will just make an updated 838/738 series, and they will still cost $1600. Of course, if they will be in DLP RPTV market at that time...

Besides that, if all PS3s will be able to play S3D movies and support S3D gaming, I don't see how they would get over bandwidth limitations of HDMI whithout using some "half-resolution" format. There are thousands of existing 3D DLP users which could potentially be sold a 3D Blu-ray player, and it's a figure too hard to ignore these times.

Post by **Jadentheman** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:09 pm

Forget this technical stuff. The projector zscreen combo sounds cheaper and better!!!

Post by **GordoSan** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:52 pm

DmitryKo wrote:120 Hz for displaying linear interpolations of 24p signal is not the same as for 120 Hz displaying two substantially different pictures. In the case of "movie enhancement", some pixel noise is perfectly tolerable, because inter-frame interpolation basically adds something not present in the original picture (picture noise, if you like) to project a sense of smoother movement. For 120 Hz stereo gaming, any pixel noise and imperfect transitions will be immediately noticeable, because any two sequential frames are substantially different, so these imperfections will result in inter-image bleeding and will be perceived as a three-dimensional noise.

Yeah, I know the effect you are talking about, as they have begun using inter-frame interpolation for uses that is beyond correction, but more as a smoothing tool for content that is fine the way it was originally intended. Or so I've heard on the AVS forums. I have no idea how comonly it is used with LCDs these days, but I was referring to the faster processing we are also seeing. I can totally see how inter-farme interpolation would make things weird when the incoming frames get doubled for 3D.

Post by **DmitryKo** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:43 am

Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America Makes it Easier to Experience 3D TV in the Home by Providing Free Upgrade to Support 3D Signal Formats

Mitsubishi offers free 3D TV software upgrade to owners of 738 and 838 series 3D DLP® Home Cinema TVs

Irvine, CA – November 15, 2010 – Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc. (MDEA), a pioneer in 3D home cinema TV, today made available a free 3D TV software upgrade for select 2010 Mitsubishi 3D-ready TVs, making it easier for consumers to experience large screen, immersive 3D home entertainment. The software updates 738 and 838 series Mitsubishi 3D-ready TVs to directly support all mandatory 3D signal formats prescribed by HDMI 1.4a. Upgraded Mitsubishi 738 and 838 3D TVs will directly connect to 3D sources such as Blu-ray® players and satellite and cable set-top boxes, without the need for a 3D adapter.

The free software upgrade allows Mitsubishi TV owners to keep pace with an evolving 3D TV landscape and enjoy the ultimate in immersive, large screen, theater-like 3D home entertainment. Mitsubishi 3D DLP® Home Cinema TVs offer some of the largest screen sizes available today, including 60, 65, 73 and a mammoth 82-inch, which provides more than three times the picture area of a 46-inch TV. DLP’s large screen format and high speed imaging make it the preferred technology for 3D viewing.

Post by **ssiu** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:28 pm

Oh, my old thread

So now we have the answer -- there are "affordable" standard 3D HDTVs (manufacturers are not releasing high-end models only) ... BUT, affordable or high-end, none of them supports 1080p 3D gaming, and that seems to be continuing into 2011 models !!! Who could've imagined such stupidity in Sept 2009

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:42 pm

Yeah, 3DTVs are basically affordable today. I saw the 720P Samsung on sale for $699. The Mitsubishi's are also well within reason.