Dual video camera synchronization (Sony LANC)

[cybereality]

I am toying with the idea of building a dual camera rig for stereo 3d but it still seems like synchronization between the cameras will be a huge issue. Sure you can try to fix it in post, but there are always going to be sync issues unless you have a hardware solution. In my search I stumbled across the Pokescope LANC controller ( http://www.pokescope.com/cameras/3d_camera_remote.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) which allows remote control of certain Sony cameras and a few Canon models. There is also the LANC Shepherd ( http://www.ledametrix.com/lancshep/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) which does the same thing. It allows you to shoot synchronized recordings, zoom in/out, time-lapse photography, etc. Basically it gives you one shutter button so you don't have to worry about sync issues. Both sell for around $400. So far so good.

Here is the problem, it doesn't seem like Sony is supporting the LANC port anymore on their newer HD digital cameras. There was only one model from 2008 I found that looks decent, the Sony Handycam HDR-SR12 ( http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... 1665291496" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), but it retails for almost $2000. All the other models are either really old SD cameras or a few MiniDV models that still aren't full HD (plus I hate tapes). Ideally I'd like to get an HD digital camera that records to a memory card or hard-drive but preferably under $500 a piece. It doesn't look like any LANC compatible cameras fit that bill.

So here is my question: does anyone know of another I/O port on modern cameras that could support these sync functions? I would be willing to build the controller myself, if there were some way to do this. It seems like there are a lot of still cameras that support remote controls (like the Canon EOS series) but almost no video cameras appear to support anything like this. So what options do we have to sync digital video camers? Also, for anyone that is using a dual camera rig currently: what do you do to deal with sync issues?

[WheatstoneHolmes]

Or maybe if you have the same cameras the remote from one would work for both at the same time?

[rebento]

Hello.

I used LanC Shepherd for over 3 years on my ex-stereo rig. On that rig I had two Sony HDR-SR1 cameras. It worked perfectly. As far as I know those were the last Handycams that had LanC port.

I am using two Sony HDR-SR12 cameras as a stereo rig for over a year now. I asure you, they don't have any LanC port. They have the new Sony standart, A/V Remote port. This port is used to connect both A/V cable and any wired remote control. I used two Sony RM-AV2 ( http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... 1665304384" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) remote controls and joined their button pins as shown in http://www.ledametrix.com/remote/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .I connected all of the pins to each other, not only the ones that are described in the webpage. It works perfectly. I can zoom in, zoom out, take photo, turn on/off and of course take video totally syncronised. This is the most economic option. Besides it is future proof as it will be compatible to future Handycams. But I must warn you: soldering to those tiny pins needs experience. If necessary I can post some photos of my rig.

If you are not that into soldering (or know someone who can help you) then there are other options:

1- LanC Shepherd with A/V port
This is not a standart product but you can make it. Buy one LanC Shepherd and two Sony RM-AV2 controlers. Swap the cables with an easy soldering procedure. Now you have one LanC Shepherd with A/V port and two Sony RM-VD1 ( http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/sto ... d=11034776" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) remote controls.
If you don't want any soldering and have a loose budget you can buy one LanC Shepherd and a pair of AV/R > LanC adapter from Ste-Fra LanC website. Then use Standart LanC Shepherd with any new Handycam.
I must say that LanC Shepherd is better than my two controller solution as it displays the sync shifts and guides you to resync them. This is espacially important when taking photos.

2- Ste-Fra LanC with A/V port ( http://www.digi-dat.de/produkte/index_eng.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
This an expensive but neat solution.

3- Using one of the wireless remote controls for both cameras as stated by WheatstoneHolmes
I used this way for around one month when I first bought HDR-SR12s and found out there is no LanC port on them. It worked with some issues as you might expect. I am using (and strongly recommending) wide angle lenses. Sometimes one of the cameras did'nt start recording because this Lens blocked the IR receiver eye.

I hope any of these options help you.

[cybereality]

Thanks a lot rebento. Some very good information in that post. I'm glad to see there are still some options for syncing stereo rigs together. Combining the two Sony RM-AV2 remotes sounds like a pretty nice way to go about it. I'd probably do that if I could find some affordable Sony camera that used that port. Right now I'm pretty broke (still looking for a job), so I won't be buying any equipment for some time. I was just mostly interested to know how other people were handling this. Thanks.

[martinlandau]

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Ca ... -33146.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rebento, this Canon has better ranking status than the Sony at camcorderinfo and seems to cost about half as much. Could you elaborate why you purchased the sony solution?

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ratings.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am in cyber's poverty status and if I can get 90% of the product for 50% of the cost it seems worth it to me.


I have an older sony hc85, but would like to do some stereo recordings. Cyber - couldn't you get 2 of these for about 150 each:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Pu ... -36520.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and a laptop/netbook and some stereo multiplexing software and do some stereorecording for cheap? Is the processing power/battery life going to be too low?

I am thinking of walking around with a small backpack and have the laptop in there recording, and perhaps making a small visor to wear on the head and mount the 2 cameras on, the minoru solution has too low of a resolution. Great thread, lets find some cheap ways to make portable high res stereo3d filmmaking a reality.

[WheatstoneHolmes]

I use the "clap board" sync method. It's free!

Snap your fingers in front of both cameras, you can see the snap in the audio track (if the ambient noise is low enough) and you can see your fingers visually in the video.

Of course this does not help with syncing zoom or focus.

Maybe if you soldered some clips (like the soldering helping hands) onto a bar, clipped one on the zoom lever of the left cam and the other on the zoom lever of the right cam?

I also saw a stereo camera setup that had a vacuum cleaner belt around the focus ring of the camera.

I know most camcorders don't have focus rings. JVC GZ-HD6 and HD7s do.

[martinlandau]

Wheatstone, if the syncing is off by a few milliseconds, does it make a difference? Certainly the LANC syncing or the genlock syncing of more expensive units have to give a better sync that snapping your fingers, but how many people can perceive that misalignment? Some have let it be known he is not a perfectionist and doesn't mind bad colors or other anamolies, but some of us get irritated by that. I suppose I am going to have to do some personal testing. I know when watching my cable TV sometimes lots of action in HD gets the audio so slightly out of sync with the video and this drives me up the walls.

[WheatstoneHolmes]

Well when using a non-linear video editor you can get down to frame-by-frame, it seems to be exact to me.

I guess when I finally realease an HD S-3D video you guys can judge for yourselves.

[rebento]

Hello martinlandau,

That Canon camcorder is a nice product. It is better than my Sonys at least for its 30p shooting option. But as far as I know it doesn't have a port for wired remote controls. Therefore two of them can't be synced by hardware. (unless you connect their "rec" button pins to each other by soldering a wire which voids the guaranty)

I am taking stereo videos and photos for memory reason. That means every time my kids do something to remember I shoot them in stereo. That makes a lot of files to edit. It is impossible for me to sync all those left and right videos on computer. Even only joining already synced videos takes alot of time.

Besides, without hardware syncing, taking quality stereo photos is almost impossible.

[martinlandau]

Besides, without hardware syncing, taking quality stereo photos is almost impossible.

Thank you Rebento. This was the information I was trying to dig out of wheatstone. It seems to him all that time in post processing is no big deal. To you it seems like a big deal. I plan to shoot about 4 hours of video a day, I need it to be fast and EASY. I just don't have the time to spend several hours a day to do complicated post processing - however wheatstone seems to claim with his snap method, he can sync the videos easily. I want to believe him, but if it were so simple to get good stereo that way, why this whole industry around stuff like genlock? It makes me think it must be very hard and complicated to get very good and well synched stereo, but wheatstone was a big pioneer over 100 years ago in the stereo field, so I assume he is an expert.

[cybereality]

wheatstone seems to claim with his snap method, he can sync the videos easily. I want to believe him, but if it were so simple to get good stereo that way, why this whole industry around stuff like genlock?

Well using a clap board is a pretty sound method. You can even get just the clapper sticks and use that to sync the video (like this: http://www.filmtools.com/reclston.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) which should be a bit more accurate than just snapping your fingers. If you are recording at 60fps (as you can with the Zx1) then you should be able to achieve near-perfect video sync by matching up the frames in post-production. Its not the most elegant solution, but it should work for most uses. I agree that its a pain in the butt (which is why I started this thread) but its better than trying to press the record buttons at the same time and hoping for the best.

[Freke1]

I've ordered the Canon-SD-mini sync switch (42 euro) for my 2 digital cameras (IXUS 70) for 3D photos:
http://www.digi-dat.de/produkte/index.html#zbarcanon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For 3D video I just press the 2 record buttons at the same time (just bought 2 Toshiba Camileo HD camcorders).
Hopefully the sync switch will also work for them.

Normally pressing the 2 record buttons at the same time works good.
Often I don't even bother - I'm going to sync it in StereoMovie Maker anyway.

I recommend buying camcorders with stereosound since StereoMovie Maker only creates stereo sound if the videos are VGA mpeg II videos (640*480). Having HD avi files means creating the stereosound in Audacity from 2 sound files and it takes a long time if You have 30 3D clips.

If anyone finds out how to get StereoMovie Maker to make stereo sound from HD avi files let me know pls.

Here's a small underwater 3D video shot by pressing the 2 record buttons at the same time through the waterproof plastic container: http://www.mtbs3d.com/gallery/albums/us ... 0_1_3D.AVI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
so You don't need a sync switch for having some 3D fun

[Likay]

Nice vid! I have to say i like underwater scenery a lot!

[martinlandau]

For 3D video I just press the 2 record buttons at the same time (just bought 2 Toshiba Camileo HD camcorders).

Freke, why did you get the toshiba and not this model?:

http://www.aiptek.com/Merchant2/merchan ... re_Code=AS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does the toshiba have a mic port, and image stabilization? How much was the toshiba? Somebody likes a rought 1.5mp CMOS censor on a kodak model, but shouldn't a 5mp cmos censor give so much more?

[WheatstoneHolmes]

Cool Freke1! Underwater+3D=good times just watch Jaws3D, bad movie but good 3D underwater film or Creture From The Black Lagoon (haven't seen in 3D yet )

[Freke1]

Thanks!

Freke, why did you get the toshiba and not this model?:

http://www.aiptek.com/Merchant2/merchan ... re_Code=AS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does the toshiba have a mic port, and image stabilization? How much was the toshiba? Somebody likes a rought 1.5mp CMOS censor on a kodak model, but shouldn't a 5mp cmos censor give so much more?

the ones I bought costs 140$ and have the mic (mono) on top and I could get it were I live:
http://www.pixmania.com/dk/dk/1408396/a ... mileo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like the Aiptek has the mic (stereo?) on the front of the LCD panel and You won't be able to flip both out if You place them close (eyedistance) (but it has external mic port though which the Toshiba dont).
There are some Full HD at 200$ but sometimes they don't ship outside US. And import tax add to the price so I figured I would wait until later with buying some Full HD and buy some cheap 720p locally. The Aiptek would probably be 300$ + mic because of import tax. But the quality is better offcause.

The toshiba has image stabilization but I don't use it because that means slight digital zoom and quality degrading.
It has fixed focus (macro/portrait(~0.5m)/distant(~2m-infinity) which I like because the new models from Toshiba are very slow to autofocus. I don't know anything about the cmos sensor.
I browsed Youtube to check the different models raw video quality, here's mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPiX4uR_6c8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Video quality could be better (1280*720p @ 30fps but only 4500kbps and this shows in the sky's color gradients).
1 hour of recording on a 2Gb card is great though.

BTW: I found a website with options to save videos in full HD in Windows Movie Maker (for XP - not sure if this works or is of use for Vista):
http://hak5.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=8521" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but offcause when we want to save sidebyside 3D videos the width should be double so I modified them:
(right click + save)
1280*720 6Mbps: http://www.3d.wep.dk/files/WMV-HD-3D-25 ... -6Mbps.prx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1280*720 12Mbps: http://www.3d.wep.dk/files/WMV-HD-3D-25 ... 12Mbps.prx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1920*1080 8Mbps: http://www.3d.wep.dk/files/WMV-HD-3D-38 ... -8Mbps.prx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[martinlandau]

Looks like the Aiptek has the mic (stereo?) on the front of the LCD panel and You won't be able to flip both out if You place them close (eyedistance)

Yes that is something to consider!

"The toshiba has image stabilization but I don't use it because that means slight digital zoom and quality degrading."

Strange, this guy says image stabilization makes quality better:

http://www.websiteoptimization.com/spee ... tabilizer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sharper stills and steady videos mean higher quality originals and higher compression ratios. The fewer details per frame and fewer changes between frames, the smaller you can make the file. The sharper your original, the smaller it will be when you optimize it for the Web.


"I don't know anything about the cmos sensor."

I think the toshiba and aiptek both have a 5 mega pixel cmos sesnor, kodak makes a z1 that only has 1.5 megapixels I believe, that has to affect quality!

[Freke1]

sound logically - I will have to try the image stabillisation out.
I just made a test with StereoMovie Maker - turn out it makes the sound (stereo) from the last (right) movie (not the first (left) movie) when loading videopairs for a 3D video. With the Aiptek's stereo sound recording this means loading the video from the fully outflipped LCD panel camcorder as the last (right) video in StereoMovie Maker. You can then swap the videos (parallel/crosseyed) - the stereosound stays the same. This is a great advantage. The halfway outflipped LCD panel is not a problem if You can still function the camera then. The soundrecording from that camera is not used.

[cybereality]

I just had another idea on how to sync the two video streams. You could use a professional quality stop-watch, like the Robic SC-505. It records up to 1/1000 of a second. Should be more than enough accuracy to sync the videos. Just hold it up in front of the dual cameras and you have a perfectly synced time code to match in post. The only issue is that the cameras would likely be out of phase so you won't get the same numbers on both streams. However you should be able to match them up within 33ms of accuracy (and you could see exactly how out of phase they are) which is much better than just doing it by eye or with the audio wave-form.



http://www.amazon.com/Robic-SC-505-Blue ... 814&sr=1-8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Freke1]

That will work though I just snap my fingers to get some audio also.