OnLive, video demoed at GDC, is this the future of gaming?

[Silversurfer]

Not exactly S-3D related but I had to share this 53 minute video with you guys.

Imagine playing Crysis on a TV or basic laptop or Mac in 720p, with no lag via your basic broadband connection! 18 minutes into this video that very scenario is demonstrated.

This project has been seven years in the making and virtually all the top end game publishers and developers are on board. Imagine not having to upgrade your PC every 3 to 6 months to keep up with the bleeding edge of hardware tech, that's now possible with this on demand service with 1 ms lag thanks to their cutting-edge algorithm's. From the games industry point of view it removes piracy so you kind of see why they're excited and from consumer's point of view we can get off the merry-go-round that his hardware obsolescence.

If the subscription price model is pitched at the affordable end to compete with Xbox live's 360 for instance then I can't see why this initiative can't be welcomed by the gaming community. I would really like to see this work, as it seems a win-win situation.

It's a long video but it's worth watching so you get a flavour of all the hard work and credible background of all those involved over the last seven years to get to this point. Enjoy and don't forget to sign up for the beta program this summer.

[BlackShark]

I have not seen the video yet, so i am jugding based on my own knowledge and opinion of this kind of services.

Well the main issue is this claimed super low lag to make users forget they are playing on remote computers which is simply not possible on current internet connections.
And i highly doubt it would be possible even with brand new high end 50/100Mbps fibre internet connections.

Even with fibre connections the average ping is not that low, then you'd need the bandwidth to carry the high definition video and audio feed back to the user equally as fast. Modern codecs like MPEG2/MPEG4/AVC/VC1, etc... are all based on time compression, so they need to buffer a certain uncompressible amount of time which created lag. So these video and audio feeds would have to be either uncompressed (which is madness through the internet) or compressed via frme independant codecs (which have highly limited compression ratios).
Then low ping requirement and the bandwidth requirement for high definition 1080p (or even fulHD+3D) are so tight that only your own ISP can afford to send you these amounts of data this fast. This means the servers would have to be hosted by your internet service provider, they cannot be hosted by independant servers or they would go bankrupt immediately.

Anti-copyright people will find it's just a major content editor/broadcaster's dream (music / movie / videogame) to centralize all entertainment systems in a place under their control and become these people's perfect enemy as it's the perfect DRM.
But my point of view is that i will never happen due to over-centralisation and the need for too many and too big data centres.
Centralized super computers have already shown their limits years ago, on the other hand, cloud computing is the way to go, and this means having the computing power in homes, not in centralized data centres.

The only question i have is : is it an april fools joke ?
(silversurver i can't find the video, can you provide the link to the 58minutes presentation ?)

[BlackShark]

I found the 58 minutes video from gamespot http://www.gamespot.com/shows/on-the-sp ... ot20090324" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The presentation is very impressive and very cool indeed. If the network speed issues can be worked out, this service could be adopted really fast. Yet there is a problem that scares me about it.
If everybody uses this kind of service, no one will buy hardware anymore, except people who have code that is not running on the onlive servers, that means us or independent developers.
If 3D is not built in the system, then you can't use it. Later if new technologies, new drivers are not installed in the system, then you can't use it. How about user created content ? As a TrackMania and Unreal Tournament player user created content is extremely important.
So people will still need high performance hardware, yet if less people use it what about the price of high performance hardware for consumers ?

On the other end, technology transition can happen much more easily since they can completely change the hardware architecture very quickly without bothering users. So new hardware is still sold in high volumes due to data centres buyinglots of hardware, then users could benefit from it. So there are reasons for hardware becoming cheap as well as reasons for hardware becoming expansive as well.
And then there are privacy issues, some of which can be solved others can't
If they manage to get low latency, this kind of services could revolutionize computing but it won't be perfect : there will be issues.

[Kimber]

Blackshark like you I initially thought this would hurt 3D.

But I personally believe it will help 3D. If this technology works many people will stop buying expensive hardware. This will force hardware developers to offer a reason for customers to buy their expensive equipment. I believe that 3D will be one of the key technologies that hardware companies will push and develop. This should increase penetration of 3D, increase demand for it, and lower prices. And I have a feeling once the 3D experience has penetrated the market it will be nearly impossible to eliminate.

[Silversurfer]

Oops I neglected to put that URL link to the video at GamesSpot didn't I, cheers for including it, that was the one I refered too.

Anyways like you said in an imperfect world there's always compromises but as a whole I think this delivery method will be progress for the PC & TV living room family gaming. You really have to watch the video to appreciate how much the game industry has got behind this particular venture as well as the credentials of those who've taken the seven-year project on. The obvious question about lag would have course most of the headaches over the seven-year period so overcoming that I guess that must have given the game develpoers and publishers a confidence to come on board.

On the s3-D front I can't see it being an issue as the NVIDIA/ATI drivers would now be able to work on entry-level 3-D graphics solutions that more potential gamers obviously have in their cheap net-books etc, increasing the potential for S3-D gaming numbers to increase. Of course OnLive would obviously be communicating with NVIDIA/ATI drivers division to facilitate their online servers being able to cope with S-3D, don't you think?

[BlackShark]

S3D now has support from the entire industry.
The new nvidia glasses have had a huge impact on game developpers. The industry is now taking for granted that stereo3D is the way to go so services like Onlive will support it sooner than later.

When the Onlive service will be available, is it going to support S3D ? The answer will certainly be NO but S3D will certainly be adopted by game developers and game developers will ask for it and the Onlive developers will make native S3D support a priority.
But what if their service was available today ? Would Onlive support stereo3D drivers ? The answer wouldprobably be like Sony's answer at CES (we'll do some tests and if consumers ask for it we'll consider doing it) So no 3D today
What if their service was available two years ago ? When S3D was still considered as a horrible gimmick ? Would we be able to enjoy S3D ? How many years would have 3D been delayed ?

That's the big issue that troubles me. I consider OnLive as a possible future for consoles, where things just work the way game developers intended them to be. But PC gaming is different, only PC gaming allows new stuff, completely new hardware which require modified drivers like stereo3D, modified games like the Novint Falcon haptics controller, injection of uncontrolled user content like Unreal Tournament (99,2003/2004,III), Farcry Sandbox, Crysis Sandbox, TrackMania, rFactor, GTR, etc... Content must be uploaded on their server, approved by them and licensed only at Onlive's conditions. A bit like the Xbox Live marketplace.

Onlive show huge potential as a console, PC exclusive games due to performance will now have no reason for not having a console port. But what about user generated content, i mean pure user generated content (not controlled content like the little big planet stuff), what about unlicensed code (which has not been approved by Onlive). This is the exclusive realm of the PC where users are in control.
Onlive is a closed proprietary system, just like consoles. PC is open : it's freedom.
I don't say closed systems are bad, they can provide amazing services, but i am scared of people massively switching their powerful PCs to pure clients running on closed remote systems like onlive, and then powerful PC becoming so marginal that PC hardware becomes too expansive for consumers to afford, or worse : removed from market.
This is what scares me with OnLive and this is why i am pessimistic about it : I a simply not ready to accept to loose the freedom of PCs.

[cybereality]

I don't like this prospect, its anti what the PC is all about.

[Silversurfer]

I would prefer to pay say $100 per year for this new OnLive service plus my hundred dollars per month telephone, 20-50 MB broadband and TV UK subscription ISP package (Virgin Media) and let's say the regular $49 per game purchase registration for the download rights for the game developers to have all the hassle of gaming hardware compatibility, game patching etc dealt with with by OnLive servers and get the instant high-quality playability as demonstrated in the video. Rather than the hassle, as I'm currently having, of a failed hard drive with my games & saves (some 2 to 3-year-old games) and the expense of upgrading, which on average over the last four years I have spent $900 $1500 + per year to have only a mid-table spec multimedia/gaming PC. Add that to the regular ISP hundred dollars per month package subscription I already regularly spend and the average of $49 per game purchase, you can see I instantly save at least $800 $1400 + per year if this new OnLive on demand broadband delivery service becomes a reality!

Piracy is killing PC gaming that's why the Halos and Gears of War sequels have to make a substantial financial return for the game developers after a year to 18 months into their console release life before they will even be considered for a PC ported version, if at all, according to a friend of mine in the business. Mainly due to PC piracy but also due to the expense of catering for the scale of different PC hardware specifications that software development overheads costs require as opposed to the one size fits all console hardware lower development costs. So something had to change and I guess that OnLive is part of the answer that the game developers and publishers were looking for. The video did speak of a try before you buy facility which you can redeem the price of when you want to take your purchase further so the current PC game ethos is preserved to a certain extent.

Also If these OnLive servers take the graphical strain off your on-site PC then maybe the S3-D graphical overhead may be lowered so more punters can enjoy S-3D gaming and multimedia apps without say the expense of sli, and other components of reasonable to expensive top end PC? I for one would then spend my $800 $1400 + per year saving up for a S3-D ready monitor/TV (preferably Mitsubishi 3-D ready LaserView).

[BlackShark]

Piracy is certainly not killing PCs, Consoles are doing it.
PC sales have been growing steadily but slowly, on the other hand the console market has literally exploded.

PC gaming has always been a much smaller market than console gaming.
PC has always been much more expansive than consoles, but PCs have an advantage : they're at the forefront of innovation because the flexibility of individual PC hardware allows to try new things, new niche markets to be found, created and expanded.

PC gaming exploded with broadband internet adoption, when gamers discovered online multiplayer gaming only on the PC. It's the great age of Unreal Tournament, Counterstrike 1.0, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, etc... It made millions of gamers buy expansive PCs.
But now online multiplayer gaming has come to consoles too, so this market is no longer PC exclusive anymore and gamers progressively stop buying expansive hardware and return to consoles.

Today, S3D is PC only and it's a niche market on the edge of becoming mainstream, just like online multiplayer when broadband internet came out. So S3D is still not in a position where everyone want it so badly that any service not offering S3D would fail. So Onlive has absolutely no pressure to enable S3D, they don't need it to get customers, so you won't get S3D through them yet.

We have been able to enjoy S3D on our PCs for almost 10 years, and that's thanks to the power of the gaming PC. Small developers with great ideas can create a small niche market very easily by selling their product directly to their consumers, because consumers have all the hardware and are provided the software to make it work.
If you add closed services like Onlive in the middle, it's going to be much more complicated, because you need to convince the big company to try new stuff which require new hardware both on the server side and on the consumer client side. If Onlive doesn't want it or can't do it, you won't get it.

Onlive has huge potential and can (and will) create great opportunities, it's going to open new doors and new markets (Crysis on a netbook). And i can bet than in a year or two it very probably will support S3D so our community will very probably benefit from it.
The problem is that it could also cause a lot of harm if it's adopted massively, because it could close the very door through which S3D has come into consumer space, and other great innovations waiting to be invented that shoud have come through this door would be blocked and be delayed by many years, or may even die.
I consider Onlive as a console experience being hardware agnostic : it's a very polished, well working and ultra user friendy gaming experience. But It's not what PC is all about.


If you say :
what would I choose between 1500$ hardware +games a year for midrange experience and 100$ Onlive subscription +games a year for high end experience, i agree with you and choose onlive.

But I ask the question differently and say :
Between playing Crysis on a netbook with Onlive, but in 2D only, or paying an extra 1500$ hardware and get decent hardware to play midrange games in S3D and high end games in 2D, would you still choose Onlive ?

[cirk2]

This service scares me...

I fear of the day when one bad motherfucker controlls what we play. This hurts the Human Rights. I want to be free and decide myself what and how I am Playing.
Even if it supports S3D (may with interlanced transport to limmit the brandwith usage) I won't use it. It cuts my Freedom, I don't want my Freedom to be cutted.

They can do what they want, but without me.

[nimotei]

I think it will be good, but much further down the line.
As you say above - it could make PC hardware very specialised and therefore too expensive for an individual to get good results from a home system.
This would be bad news for a healthy mod community, and crucial inspirational game and level design and ideas generation.
These would all be diluted in the money machine that onlive might become. (I say this as big companies tend to produce committee driven generic 'please everyone and no one games'.

Someone said it better than I when they said; "A horse would be a camel if designed by committee"

As for onlive themselves I would be interested to know if they have any S3D plans. I will ask them, then post the results.
I work for an online games company so maybe I could crowbar an answer out of them. Hmm probably not, I'm not important enough?!

[BlackShark]

Well in the video they say they want people to give them some feedback, so maybe they will listen and understand.
The biggest issue is how to make Onlive capable of supporting new ideas coming from individuals and not only from "Big-content". And it's a very well known fact that the bigger the company, the less it listens to individuals.

But my understanding from the presentation is that Onlive is not a generic cloud computing service, I don't think it's aiming for selling just raw computing power but rather selling a gaming experience. And that means certifying code to be safely used on their massive server.
Maybe they will provide some kind of hobbyist/indie developer package at a very small and affordable price, that could maybe work if the fee is really low or included with the service use for non-commercial purposes for example. The problem is, will the service have enough flexibility to allow everything that is currently possible with a PC ? I highly doubt about it.

[Freke1]

With the massive bandwidth I can finally download the internet?

[Silversurfer]

But I ask the question differently and say :
Between playing Crysis on a netbook with Onlive, but in 2D only, or paying an extra 1500$ hardware and get decent hardware to play midrange games in S3D and high end games in 2D, would you still choose Onlive ?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying OnLive is a one-size-fits-all fix. To answer your above question, I want both. I did mention that the "$800 $1400 + per year saving up for a S3-D ready monitor/TV (preferably Mitsubishi 3-D ready LaserView)." rather than updating the mid range 2008 S3D PC to a mid range 2009 S3D PC guts just to stay afloat.

I read this week that the Intel Atom CPU will be shrunk to fit into Phones by the end of the year so it begs the question, could OnLive have a place on phones to? Horse's for different courses, S3D pushed by the "this-time-we-can't-afford-for-it-to-fail-and-write-of-the-lose" Nvidia Geforce 3D Vision/120Htz display partner type efforts using OnLive as a spring board to introduce S3D to a currently cash straped global financial hamstrunge entry level gaming non-specialist punkers, unlike or like ourselves.

Lets let the OnLive servers take the strain for the burden of the mid to high hardware requirements of S3D gaming from the CPU, MoBo, GPU, Ram etc point of view & we can then afford the specialist displays / eyeware a bit sooner?