What is the Best VR now, Valve index, Vive Cosmos?

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:53 pm

Rumour of Apple's upcoming VR headset:

Screens: twin 8K displays
Cameras: 12+ cameras for hand tracking, environment positioning, AR/pass-through vision
Other sensors: eye tracking, LIDAR for accurate positioning
Processor: Apple Silicon – to power the standalone experience
On device controls: as well as the eye tracking and hand tracking, there is talk of a thimble-like dial on the side of the HMD

Priced at USD 3K.

I am sceptical but it does intrigue...

FWIW, happy Reverb G2 experiences here - an insane improvement over my old CV1.

Post by **skyrimer** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:16 am

Glad to hear about Apple entering the VR space, and even with a high quality headset, it'll probably make other players like Samsung start thinking on releasing more devices of their own. Bigger market, more choice, better revenue for developers, more games and apps, we all win. I can also imagine Facebook will release another Oculus device so that Apple doesn't take a big chunk of the market, and I can imagine that Valve will have something in mind too, since Index will be 3 years old already in 2022, and Sony will hopefully start talking about psvr2.

Post by **Chtiblue** » Sat Feb 06, 2021 5:29 am

I got the Reverb G2, nice for VR gaming except Low FOV & Mura but to low resolution for Helixmod.
Waiting for a dual 6k or 8k at desent price and not an apple sucker toy.
HTC announced a new headset for this year but no specification yet

Post by **Grant S** » Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:29 am

My main PCVR HMD, for sims, is currently the Reverb G1 great resolution IMO, with the supersampling slider, I can achieve what looks to me like 1080p on a monitor in most VR games. For room scale games, I prefer to use my Quest 2 streamed via Virtual desktop to another much larger room that doesn't have the danger of me punching a 3D TV or projector with my controllers. I have Helixvision and it's a great piece of software, but I 've been using Vorpx https://www.vorpx.com/ for a few years. it doesn't rely on the 3D vision driver, has great open gl support. Games I play in Vorpx, mostly look as good as they do in 3D on a 3D monitor. possibly because supersampling can be used as with standard VR titles. I use it often o play older open gl and DX games that has what Vorpx calls "direct vr support" The best results I've had are in old Quake area games like Star Trek Elite Force original COD. It's pretty easy to to make custom profiles with games that use the same engine. I also often play on a big virtual screen with Vorpx and the resolution is pretty stunning that way. I regard both Helixvision and Vorpx to be essential for VR users that are also 3D enthusiasts.

Being a system builder since the days of DOS, one thing I learned about the current state of VR is there is one hardware component that is just as important as the CPU and GPU for a good VR experience and that is the USB controller. All three of the major players Vive, Oculus and WMR are finicky when it comes to USB bandwidth. Some are lucky and have no issues, many that rely on other USB devices have issues until they upgrade to a startech or inatek 3.1 card. Having a good USB controller and limiting what's on that controller goes along way to a great VR experience.

I'm not sure right now is a good time to invest heavily in a VR ecosystem. A lot going on in the development sector and more players with great ideas are coming onto the scene. If I do upgrade any time soon, it will be the G2 with Vive knuckles controllers. I still don't like what the new WMR controllers offer compared to Oculus touch or Valves knuckles. I'm keeping my lighthouses ready in case I do.

Post by **BazzaLB** » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:07 pm

To those who modded their "Vive Pro" with the "Gear VR Lens" mod, how much did this reduce the original FOV by? I wear glasses so am concerned that the reduction in FOV will be substantial with the mod as I believe the lens end up even closer to your face as a result of this mod.

Post by **whyme466** » Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:35 pm

Yes, the lens mod reduces the clearance between my glasses and the VR lens (I have small frame glasses with 4 ft - not infinity - vision correction, used for 3D Vision and VR gaming). Note that bringing your eyes closer to the lens actually expands FOV. For example, I followed one reviewer’s suggestion to expand the Vive Pro 2’s FOV by buying/installing thinner face pad. I highly recommend the Gear VR lens mod - see my comments at https://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... 81#p179581.

Post by **BazzaLB** » Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:55 am

whyme466 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:35 pm Yes, the lens mod reduces the clearance between my glasses and the VR lens (I have small frame glasses with 4 ft - not infinity - vision correction, used for 3D Vision and VR gaming). Note that bringing your eyes closer to the lens actually expands FOV. For example, I followed one reviewer’s suggestion to expand the Vive Pro 2’s FOV by buying/installing thinner face pad. I highly recommend the Gear VR lens mod - see my comments at https://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... 81#p179581.

Thanks for the response. I have small frame glasses too and have the Vive Pro lens distance on the setting that has it closest to my face and still have room for my glasses with current lenses. Not sure if you had the setting at its closest, but if you do. did you have to increase the Lens distance setting (with the button on the bottom of the front of the unit) to still have room for your glasses once you added the lens mod?

I did read of people stating that their FOV was decreased slightly though even without increasing Lens distance setting. Are the GearVR lenses smaller perhaps and this is what reduces FOV? Did you have any particular issues with dust during the conversion? I bought (but have not yet received) a lens mod kit from Etsy that claims no distortion and easy fit so just checking before it arrives as to whether or not I am game enough to attempt the swap. I really dont want a decrease in FOV though.

Cheers

Post by **3DNovice** » Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:10 am

Post by **whyme466** » Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:10 am

You DO need to be careful about introducing dust during the replacement process. I purchased a small electronics air blower to help clean all surfaces (useful for cleaning computer fans/parts also), and I still had to install one of the lens twice because of dust.

You may need to change your current lens distance setting slightly, since the non-Fresnel Gear VR lens with 3D printed lens holders are thicker than the original Vive lens.

Post by **Kaizen777** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:40 pm

I just got a Pimax 8KX yesterday, previously using a Reverb G2. Had Index and OG Vive prior to that. For me, the crown goes to the 8KX by a significant amount. Out of the box the settings were pretty bad. First experience was "MEH". But after reading online posts from other users I was able to dial it in fairly easily to where it came out on top of all the others I've had. About 95% of the clarity of the G2 over a larger sweet spot, near human eye FOV, and spectacular colors. Not even going to try the Vive Pro 2. Many other 8KX owners have, and after tweaking have decided that it crushes the VP2. There is no perfect VR headset, not even close. The Varjo VR-3 currently has the best image quality of them all, essentially retina resolution... and essentially over $5,500 USD if you buy the headset (around $3,000) and the lifetime support package ($2,500) as opposed to annual support ($800). No ongoing support package = headset stops working!
I'll pass on that one. =D Anyway within in 2-3 years we'll have human-eye-resolution headsets priced under $2,000. Exciting times. I still love 3DVision gaming the most though. =D

Post by **Lysander** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:02 pm

Good stuff, I'll probably wait till then, give the tech a couple more years to advance and content to show up. I like reading comparison opinions from ppl who experienced 3DV properly and also good VR.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:41 pm

Human eye resolution is > 24K x 24K x2 - I doubt we'll have those any time soon - certainly not a gfx card that can manage to display that @ >90fps...

Right now, our best is around 4K x 2K x 2.

I would take marketing claims with a huge grain of salt

Post by **whyme466** » Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:31 am

@Kaizen777 - how is the optical distortion of the 8KX lens at the outer edges of the FOV, in both normal and wide settings (narrow mode seemed OK)? I do not believe Pimax redesigned the HMD lens for their 8KX version - I REALLY disliked the barrel-like distortion in my older 8K version. I strongly prefer uniform geometry across entire HMD FOV, with no geometric distortion anywhere, when a person moves their head or eyes…

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:02 pm

Pimax 8KX vs. Reverb G2 vs. Varjo VR-3 Through The Lens...

https://youtu.be/2Ah1faUUCwI

Huge differences between the image quality between all 3 it would seem. Shame about the Varjo price tag...

Post by **whyme466** » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:35 am

My Vive Pro 2 looks much better when used with 3080Ti, enabling higher resolution and better performance. It has become my preferred HMD, but the wired cable resurfaced the old issue of cable management - eliminated by wireless (or stand alone) connections. I installed https://vr-wire.com/ for hardware cable management (works GREAT, but spouse/partner may object...), and https://store.steampowered.com/app/1208 ... _Guardian/ for software-based cable managent. Both are working great for cable management - enabling wireless movement in play space (actually better, since no in-game battery swapping is required - which killed some games).

I have both 2080Ti and 3080Ti installed in same PC (Falcon Northwest Talon), consuming 5 of the PC's 6 primary PCIe slots. The 2080Ti is hybrid cooled (2 slots), with radiator/fan replacing top side chassis fan. The 3080Ti is air cooled (2.75 slots). My 2080Ti is enabled only for 3D Vision gaming, while my 3080Ti is enabled only for VR gaming (Device Manager used to disable GPUs, depending upon boot OS). The PC/GPU temperatures changed only by 1-2 C, with the introduction of disabled 3080Ti during 3D Vision gaming. During VR gaming sessions, the 3080Ti operates around 75 C (the disabled 2080Ti case radiator fan is active, but does not noticeably increase as chassis heats). My 2080Ti generally runs 65 C when gaming, but even when running up to 75 C, is more silent than the 3080Ti.

I have used a thinner (than shipped) facial cover/interface (Quest parts work) to expand Vive Pro 2's FOV slightly. I have also adjusted/improved Vive Pro 2's brightness - see full text of https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/ ... _the_vive/. For my setup, the …VIVE\Updater\App... location contained the default.vrsettings file. I also tried changing the DisplayResolutionAuto to FALSE, which appeared to enable Steam SS to work, but created lots of jerky motion. The default TRUE setting provides much smoother game motion.

Post by **3DNovice** » Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:47 pm

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:38 am

Varjo Aero, $2000, 2880 x 2720 = 8 million pixels per eye - no controllers, no speakers.
HP Rebverb G2, $500, 2160 x 2160 = 4 million pixels per eye - mediocre controllers, good speakers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slRKY1cIr6E

4x price of the G2. 4x the quality? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For me personally, with current GPU's, I struggle to maintain 90fps with 100% scaling on the G2 (3100x3100). With VorpX, my resolution is usually limited to ~1600x1200 in old games, or 800p in newer games. More recently, with FSR and OpenXR's motion reprojection, I have been able to achieve 1440p.

In conclusion, for me personally, is this headset better than the G2? Hell yes. Can we drive it? Not within the next few years, within which timeframe other competing headsets will be out - at least moving the Aero prices lower if nothing else. My 2 cents.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:16 am

New Pimax 12K QLED

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izxSJ3JYcrU

Showcase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNfEDlAUGU0

240 degree diagonal FOV,
Auto IPD,
"Distortionless bionic" lenses,
200 Hz refresh,
standalone + PCVR / WiGig module,
QLED+MiniLED backlit zones so true blacks + brighter than OLED.
Wireless/Battery powered,
Eye tracking + Mouth tracking + face expression tracking + body tracking, (lol)
Trade-in full price for old head units.

Also supports lots of PiMax/3rd party modules. Unclear what is included in the basic unit.

It smells like PiMax got scared by Varjo Aero and just started making things up in a desperate attempt to remain relevant.

Probably in-line with PiMax history - promise the moon; trickle in actual units to backers years down the line; ignore tech support requests.

"$2400; Availability Q4 2022" - lol sure...

Post by **helifax** » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:44 pm

If you ever saw a Varjo headset before.... there are no questions to be answered

Varjo all the way! Absolutely fantastic craftmanship (Better than Vive Pro and Pro 2 and a LOOT better than Valve index), Full SteamVR headset, Lightbase tracking so you can use all those controllers, trackers etc

I would really WANT to believe PIMAX will actually make that WIRELESS headset as they say (With aspherical lenses and that Fov AND WIRELESS! But looking at Vive Pro2 the Wigi standard is currently not allowing for the bandwidth required for 8 mil pixels, unless they implement and use WiGi 2.0??!?! Did that get approved yet?!)

I wanna believe! But currently Varjo, no doubt about it!

Post by **3DNovice** » Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:58 am

Post by **3DNovice** » Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:18 am

Post by **whyme466** » Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:16 am

Really interesting discussion about potential technologies (and metaverse ecosystem) in Valve’s upcoming Deckard HMD. Thanks for sharing this information, 3DNovice.

Post by **3DNovice** » Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:16 pm

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:23 pm

Cataracts?

Get the other one done too!

Post by **3DNovice** » Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:21 pm

Post by **3DNovice** » Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:15 am

Post by **3DNovice** » Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:07 am

Post by **whyme466** » Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:27 pm

With improving VR hardware on the horizon, the lack of great new PC VR content is becoming a larger issue - see https://uploadvr.com/pc-vr-new-content-editorial/, for example.

Post by **3DNovice** » Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:55 pm

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:22 pm

I recently played Lone Echo 2 (oculus exclusive) with a Reverb G2 via ReVive. I dare say that the experience was better than any Oculus headset. When there is a will, there is a way.

Re:Content, or rather, a lack thereof - I just use VorpX to play most of my games. True VR games such as Lone Echo are just an added bonus. I guess this ecosystem is a mirror of 3DV vs flat gaming that we are all used to.

There is always a chicken and egg situation in regard to hardware vs content. I am somewhat relieved that VR is taking off on the hardware side. Of course, 3DTVs also took off, and yet, here we are...

Post by **Losti** » Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:30 pm

Just a short question. I have a Rift S, never really used it because of the bad quality of the resolution. Anything out there pimping this???

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:16 am

Can't polish a turd I'm afraid. Sell it and get a Reverb G2 with prescription lenses - I know you hated the G2 at first with your glasses. As you know, the G2 has excellent resolution available now, and great price, especially used. The V2 edition has just been released too, with slightly better tracking.

A 2080Ti/3080/3090 can barely drive this thing at close to native resolution in VorpX or even in native VR - you will have this for years.

The RiftS was a glorified CV1. To me, the difference between a CV1 and a G2 is night and day.

Post by **Losti** » Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:00 am

RAGEdemon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:16 am Can't polish a turd I'm afraid. Sell it and get a Reverb G2 with prescription lenses - I know you hated the G2 at first with your glasses. As you know, the G2 has excellent resolution available now, and great price, especially used. The V2 edition has just been released too, with slightly better tracking.

A 2080Ti/3080/3090 can barely drive this thing at close to native resolution in VorpX or even in native VR - you will have this for years.

The RiftS was a glorified CV1. To me, the difference between a CV1 and a G2 is night and day.

I rasend reverb G2 due to the bad sweet point. So they have fixed this ? IT was ok but only in the middle of the screen.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:54 pm

No, everyone gets different results - it depends on how bad your eyesight is - especially astigmatism. People who do not need glasses see a large sweet spot. Prescription lenses from places such as VR Lens Lab help (I have these).

Still, the sweet spot is equal to, if not larger, than most other headsets - it's just that other headsets are so blurry that you don't notice the small sweet spot in the middle, but it is very noticeable on the G2 because it has such a brilliant image.

$329 for the G2 used - that is a steal.

Post by **3DJ** » Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:38 pm

I was strongly considering buying it from that exact listing, but I'm not sure if it's the newer V2 model with better tracking, which a lot of people have pointed out to me.
Some say that is the new one but others say it isn't. Some even say both V1 and V2 have the same model number (wtf). I even contacted HP support and they couldn't figure that out either, or even the changes from v1.

On a side note, I got frustrated with the lack of a complete, easily-searchable VR headset database, so I've been working on one:

default sort (editable):

https://airtable.com/shrVpFopyWSyJFVlr

I'm fairly new to VR but I think this is the right place to ask everyone here: what are the most important priorities to look for in a VR headset, in order?
P.S.: I intend to use it for everything from sims to 3D vision to virtual theater for movies.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:05 pm

Hi 3DJ, that image in my post was actually your image - thanks for that!

That is an excellent spreadsheet.

Your question is very subjective, as different things are important for different people. The creator of VorpX for example, doesn't feel Stereoscopic 3D is very important for VR, for example - everyone here was shocked to hear that.

Why not try to find a place where you could try a few headsets?

Are you in Europe? If so, you can try headsets and return them within 2 weeks if you don't like them for a full refund.

Maybe some of your friends have them near you that you might try out?

My personal preference hierarchy, from most important to least important - and how the G2 compares, out of 5 stars:

1. Image Quality: Sharpness > Resolution > Colours > Screen Door Effect [5/5]
2. FOV [3/5]
2. Tracking [2/5]
3. Price [4/5]
4. Weight [4/5]

Post by **3DJ** » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:45 pm

I know someone who owns a VR headset and I just found a couple places that might allow trying them out. Which service allows returning for full refund? Maybe we have something here in the US.
And thanks! That hierarchy is exactly what I was looking for. I just hope I can find reliable sources that measure stuff like tracking accuracy and image sharpness so I can add them to the database.

By the way, what's the general consensus on the Quest 2 compared to the G2? Has anyone here had experience with it, particularly in PCVR/3D Vision via HelixMod/VorpX?
It's my very close runner-up but the facebook/online requirement is a big turnoff.

I read Grant S' post (viewtopic.php?p=177135#p177135) and his upgrade plan seems like a really good idea: Reverb G2 + Index controllers. I didn't know we could mix and match accessories so I wonder if that would fix most issues with the G2 (given it's v2).

Post by **Lysander** » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:15 pm

3DJ wrote: ↑Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:45 pm It's my very close runner-up but the facebook/online requirement is a big turnoff.

The mandatory FB login is apparently going away.

Post by **RAGEdemon** » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:55 am

In the EU, it is law that any online purchase is returnable without any reason given. I appreciate that you yanks don't have strong consumer protections - sorry

IMHO, the best way to compare online is to watch MRTV and Tyriel Wood videos. Other youtubers have good comparisons too. Basically they show you actual through the lens footage side-by-side like this:

Comparing the Varjo to G2 to Index:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3twyxMTjdR8

Q2 vs G2 vs Index:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny_OPsxHQmU

General consensus on the Q2 is that the clarity is not as good as the G2, however tracking is slightly better. I do not have the system to compare, so others will give better info.

You can mix some accessories, not all. You can't use oculus controllers with other headsets for example (without a lot of hacking). I would love to get my CV1 touch controllers working with my G2 but that isn't going to happen. Someone got close, but ultimately failed because you keep needing to nudge the CV1 headset.

Really, for everything I have tried, the G2 controllers are adequate. The only problem I have had is that the haptics are janky and buzzy rather than giving proper feedback, and they are not as accurate as the Touch [and index] controllers. Would I personally pay $500 extra (same price as a full G2 V2 bundle) for them and the base stations? No way, though I appreciate that those who want to play in VR touching and shooting with accuracy, and competitively, might want to.

Something new is always around the corner. I am looking forward to haptic feedback like you get on the PS5 controllers on the triggers depending on what you are holding.

In the US, just get a couple of used systems, and resell the ones you don't like... before they start getting expensive leading up to the holidays