RifTUP! FullHD Oculus DK1 upgrade kit

Post by **ripcurl123** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:55 pm

im in too thanks daniel /kernel32

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:09 pm

woodsmoke wrote:
OzOnE2k10 wrote:As I understand it, Daniel's MIPI "dev" platform had a separate breakout board for different panel types.
Is that right.. So would that mean the Stand-Alone-Board kit is either one PCB, with HMDI in and USB hub on the same board as the display controller. Or two boards, the second being a dedicated display controller. And this second board can be swapped with other mipi display controllers as and when rozsyno releases them? That would be ideal. Perhaps someone can confirm?

tbh, I'm 99% certain that the RiftUP kits are designed for one type of screen connector atm (5.9" panel).
This panel just happened to be the best fit for the DK1 regarding the size etc., and it performed very well in testing.

To use a different panel would mean getting some custom MIPI or breakout boards made.
Using different panels would be kind of a "niche" thing tbh though, so not too practical to change the RiftUP kits at this time.

It was only on Daniels dev platform where he had different breakout boards for different panel / connector types.
It also often means changing the circuit parameters for the supply voltages and backlight driver, so it might be tricky.

woodsmoke wrote:
OzOnE2k10 wrote:Are you in the UK by any chance?
Aye. A Scot in London, where abouts are you then? You'll have to review my prototype for me.

I'm in Torquay, mate (down in "Mordor" lol).

No problem at all if you need anything testing / reviewing.
I'm quite shy though, so don't expect any YouTube vids of the review or anything. hehe

OzOnE.

Post by **woodsmoke** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:13 pm

RiftUp! campaign wrote:You can use RiftUP! in your own project! We made it simple by adding HDMI connector directly onto display board, bypassing the need of DK1 cable. We also provide a simple breakout board (in Standalone display kit) which combines HDMI+USB+Power into a single cable.

It says something about the dev board arrangement on the site. It's probably obvious to an electronics engineer, but I'm afraid I'm still not entirely sure what the dev kit entails. I would think the most flexible way to do it would be one board with all the functions and another board dedicated to controlling the display. So the dedicated board swaps as the display swaps. This makes adaption to different displays the cheapest. This is probably how you have done it. I've almost convinced myself...?

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:26 pm

Ahh, you've got me thinking again now.

I'll have to check the exact specifics about the RiftUP! boards.

I'm also not entirely clear on what the standalone kit includes - @Kernel32 / Daniel, would it be possible for you to post photos, or even just a block diagram of how the standalone kit connects up?

Does this mean there is an HDMI socket on the MIPI board inside the headset itself?
Does the "HDMI" breakout board simply replace the board at the controller end of the cable?

And is the USB breakout board intended for fitting into the headset itself?

(Sorry, I've been busy / away for a while, so I haven't been in contact with Daniel much to confirm the details.)

OzOnE.

Post by **woodsmoke** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:51 pm

OzOnE2k10 wrote:tbh, I'm 99% certain that the RiftUP kits are designed for one type of screen connector atm (5.9" panel).
This panel just happened to be the best fit for the DK1 regarding the size etc., and it performed very well in testing.

To use a different panel would mean getting some custom MIPI or breakout boards made.
Using different panels would be kind of a "niche" thing tbh though, so not too practical to change the RiftUP kits at this time.

It was only on Daniels dev platform where he had different breakout boards for different panel / connector types.
It also often means changing the circuit parameters for the supply voltages and backlight driver, so it might be tricky.

Aye, the campaign is soley suited to the 5.9" display. I got there too finally thanks. That is unless the dev platform kit still holds all those connector options you mention. Probably been whittled down for the campaign though, too much techy know how required for a product on sale, agreed.

There was talk of different sized displays earlier in the thread, I was wondering whether we might see controller boards for them on Roz's website some time in the future. Too niche though? Not enough sales to justify the manufacture perhaps. And there I was thinking this is as niche as it gets.

Mordor! My opinion of Torquay will forever be coloured by second hand reports of Channel 4's documentary 'The Hotel'. Otherwise I'd imagine it's actually nice and sunny.

Post by **baggyg** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:57 pm

woodsmoke wrote: Mordor! My opinion of Torquay will forever be coloured by second hand reports of Channel 4's documentary 'The Hotel'. Otherwise I'd imagine it's actually nice and sunny.

I come from Exeter, but in my mind Torquay is exactly like as it is in Fawlty Towers.

Post by **woodsmoke** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:16 pm

Kudos to Iryna for her cameo and HMD metaphor, she definitely raised the tone of the whole proceedings.

Meanwhile that hand-assembled RiftUp! Now! kit is headed straight into Palmer's VR headset vault. One more piece of history.

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:33 pm

baggyg wrote:
woodsmoke wrote: Mordor! My opinion of Torquay will forever be coloured by second hand reports of Channel 4's documentary 'The Hotel'. Otherwise I'd imagine it's actually nice and sunny.
I come from Exeter, but in my mind Torquay is exactly like as it is in Fawlty Towers.

LOL - yeah, pretty much like Fawlty Towers.

Definitely NOT so sunny these days though, hence the Mordor reference.

The weather always seems to heat up for the entire east of the UK while were down here in the wind and rain.

I guess there has been some pretty bad weather and flooding for everyone recently though, so can't complain too much.

I'm actually from Essex originally, but I've lived in Devon for over two-thirds of my life now (23 years).
Just wish we'd moved back closer to civilisation about 8 years ago while there were still some good jobs to be had.

Please don't mention "The Hotel" documentary, it was very embarrassing. lol
That place was in a right state, and I had many rants about it at the time. They couldn't even be bothered to give the place a lick of paint.

I actually did some computer work in that hotel in 1996 when it was under different management. Interesting times. :p

@woodsmoke - just to clarify - when I said "dev platform", I was talking about Daniel's personal testing platform, which had separate connections for many daughter-boards.
This allowed him to test different combinations of HDMI Rx / Tx chips, MIPI converter chips, and panels.

The standalone RiftUP! kit sounds good for people wanting to use the display separately though...

From what Daniel and I discussed before, I'm fairly sure the RiftUP has an HDMI socket at the MIPI board / headset end.
I believe the breakout board that goes at the "controller" end of the HDMI cable can then feed power / video to the display, and USB to the tracker.

The "upgrade" RiftUP kit is a complete direct replacement for the DK1 panel / controller board, so it re-uses the stock DK1 cable.
If need be, I'm sure Daniel will make the breakout boards available separately too, so the DK1 cable can be extended via a longer HDMI cable?

btw, who's Iryna, and what's a RiftUp! Now! kit?

I bet Palmer's original prototypes will definitely be going to the vault now too.
Imagine how much they'll be worth in a few decades!
It would be like Woz' original Apple I prototype.

OzOnE

Post by **synchromesh** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:52 pm

Hi @Kernel32,

This looks like a great project and I’m glad to see someone offering an upgrade for the DK1. I have pre-ordered the DK2, but I'd like to upgrade my DK1 to be a bit more immersive.

Mike Abrash says a FOV of 80 degrees is required for presence. DK1 & DK2 quote a 100-degree FOV. Can you tell us what the new FOV angles are with the smaller panel, with and without the “C cup” lens adapters?

Do you recommend people use the lens adapters to try to restore the full FOV, or is it better to just go with the reduced FOV? Is configuration (IPD etc.) an issue either way?

Cheers,

John :^P

(I've posted this question as a comment on the Indiegogo page, but that's not public, so I thought I'd post here as well.)

Post by **mr.uu** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:04 pm

woodsmoke wrote:Meanwhile that hand-assembled RiftUp! Now! kit is headed straight into Palmer's VR headset vault. One more piece of history.

No, it is MINE!

OzOnE2k10 wrote:btw, who's Iryna, and what's a RiftUp! Now! kit?

I think Iryna is the Hottie (arr, engineer) in the Indiegogo video. And the RiftUp! Now! kit is the most expensive pledge ($599) which i am more than ready to pay for Daniels efforts.
I will make an in depth report for you all as soon as i get it...

Post by **cgp44** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:23 pm

Come on everybody. Rozsnyo needs at least half of a box of 120 6 incher displays sold to be comfortable
ordering such a shipment. This project probably will not be viable if they have to go through 100 per cent
plus ripoff merchants.

But its looking good half goal in one day. Lets see three times goal in a week!

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:25 pm

oic, thanks mr.uu.

I (didn't) recall the RiftUP! Now! kit when I looked through the site yesterday.

btw, @Kernerl32 - is it "RiftUP!" with the exclamation mark, or without?

Post by **rozsnyo** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:29 pm

Back from the dinner with my wife... the RiftUP! should go with exclamation mark - or is that breaking some rules of English? Anyway nice name, unique on Google and leads directly to us

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:36 pm

Just had another brain fart...

Once the DK2's start shipping, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to add the IR LEDs to the DK1 as well.
That is unless the IR LEDs have very complex sequencing patterns?

This would mean that the DK1 with a RiftUP! kit would be a very serious alternative to anyone wanting a DK2.

The idea of the DK2 PenTile display is a bit of a downer tbh. The panel in the RiftUP! would surely give better fine detail?

Given time, all of the features of the DK2 will be reverse-engineered anyway (hmm, I wonder if FB will try to enforce something against that in future?).
Even the DK2 camera module will likely be reversed at some point, which will mean accurate positional tracking for every DIY builder.

Another thing just to confirm - does the RiftUP! panel require a portrait resolution, or does it work directly at 1920x1080?
(this has been mentioned before, but I wanted to double-check)

OzOnE.

@rozsnyo - Just saw your post about the RiftUP! name. That's cool.
Yep, I noticed it finds you pretty quick on Google too.

Post by **davidmi58** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:10 pm

Did anyone get a chance to answer the question of whether or not RiftUP! will work with Tridef/Vorpx/Vireio? Very curious about this.
Thanks.

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:11 pm

Nearly met the $10,000 Goal already.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/riftup/x/6889583

Post by **mr.uu** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:24 am

davidmi58 wrote:Did anyone get a chance to answer the question of whether or not RiftUP! will work with Tridef/Vorpx/Vireio? Very curious about this.
Thanks.

It should. If it does not work natively for whatever reason you plug in the original rift board to show presence of the rift.

Post by **baggyg** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:53 am

davidmi58 wrote:Did anyone get a chance to answer the question of whether or not RiftUP! will work with Tridef/Vorpx/Vireio? Very curious about this.
Thanks.

I've already spoken with rozsnyo and I will make sure Vireio outputs to the right format for the RiftUp. If necessary I can add a custom format (distortion / ipd / etc) once I have received mine. As long as the tracker is plugged in that is all you need in Vireio. The other drivers may be different.

Post by **davidmi58** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:46 am

baggyg wrote:
davidmi58 wrote:Did anyone get a chance to answer the question of whether or not RiftUP! will work with Tridef/Vorpx/Vireio? Very curious about this.
Thanks.
I've already spoken with rozsnyo and I will make sure Vireio outputs to the right format for the RiftUp. If necessary I can add a custom format (distortion / ipd / etc) once I have received mine. As long as the tracker is plugged in that is all you need in Vireio. The other drivers may be different.

Thanks for the replies. Looking forward to trying it out.

Post by **play2lose** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:12 pm

Backed

I've got a question for you guys though. It says "Delivery" is estimated within 3-4 weeks, does that mean you'll be shipping before then?

Post by **rozsnyo** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:16 pm

About the shipping - we assumed it from from reaching the campaign goal, which I hope will happen sometime soon

I am quite lost in lot of questions, we'll have to meet tomorrow with Karel and figure out how to address all of them. Maybe we should just make a FAQ on our site extended by these questions ( at http://riftup.rozsnyo.com - bottom of the page ).

About the standalone board - it will have hdmi/usb/power plugs populated, so it won't fit the DK1 - therefore no DK1 breakout is supplied, but only a simple breakout adapter, to merge all of these 3 signals into 1 usb cable. Then there is a local usb hub, to have cameras / soundcards / trackers to be connected with no visible extra cable. And a programmer for the whole board, which can be used to develop backlight strobing or custom EDID. The display interface board is same as DK1 upgrade, only populated with extra components. The upgrade is stripped down version of it - to serve a single purpose.

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:03 pm

Hi, Daniel,

Yep, I think an FAQ would be good.

Makes more sense now about the standalone board.

(I don't want to overload you with too many questions again, but just a few thoughts)...

So, the normal RiftUP! kit just has the connectors for the stock DK1 cable, and the HDMI / USB / power aren't populated, is that correct?
And the "standalone" version is more for people who want to build a DIY Rift with the 1080p panel?

Would it be possible then to add the connectors to the RiftUP! kit for people who might want to extend the stock cable by using HDMI instead?
Or, does the standalone kit have a completely different board to the RiftUP! kit?

And would you be able to supply the breakout / programmer boards separately at a later date?

Best thing might be if you could post some photos showing the different parts of each kit, or a simplified "block diagram" of which boards / cables comprise each kit?

I know you've all been working VERY hard already to put all of this together, so no rush from my point of view.

I like to keep my options open though, so if it's possible to extend the normal RiftUP! kit via HDMI at a later date, that would be fantastic.

Regards,
OzOnE.
P.S. Backlight strobing sounds fun to play with.

Post by **cgp44** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:51 pm

OzOne, i actually would prefer the breakout box of the RiftUP! kit as the usb/hdmi input.
It allows for flexible placement of them w.r.t. the display board which can only be right behind
the display. You can cut the connector 20 odd wires to any shortened length or extented (you
will see any signal degradation, if then you shorten till ok) .

Post by **Libertine** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:53 pm

Congrats guys. Also congrats on Rozsnyó's 70s adult film career.

Post by **cgp44** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:53 pm

Rozsnyo,

could you tell us all how your experimentation with low persistence went.

Post by **cgp44** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:11 pm

Can you cut the 20 odd wires in a connector and solder them together?
Does the solder lug cause impedence reflections on the hdmi's tmds signal?
Otherwise we have to do many reinsertions of the connector plug to the wires,
or just have many differently lengthed connectors.
Could Rozsnyo please give the connector plug part number and source. Thanks

Post by **rozsnyo** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:39 am

I hope this graphics explains the FOV questions. The 3mm difference is just in range of IPD variation, so there is no dramatic FOV change.

Post by **cgp44** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:52 am

the oculus 7 incher really does waste a lot of pixels. Very keen on seeing RiftUP! on my DK1.

Post by **rozsnyo** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:47 am

I have put answers to all questions placed so far here: http://riftup.rozsnyo.com/#FAQ . Also the FOV is explained there : http://riftup.rozsnyo.com/#FOV

Post by **RaNk** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:55 am

Couldnt resist. £460 spend on rifts this week. DK2 coming in july and now the wonderful RiftUP! in a coupla weeks. Racing is never going to be the same again.

and I pushed it over the 10k. Great days.

Post by **baggyg** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:07 am

Now the goal has been reached does manufacturing start and hence delivery will be 3 - 4 weeks from now?

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:36 am

Hi,

Congratulations on reaching the $10,000 Goal.

Thanks to RaNK btw, for pushing it over the Goal.

(I realise it had flexible funding, but it's a great goal to be achieved in this short space of time.)

Just thought of a few things...

It thought it would be very interesting to calculate the number of pixels across the viewable areas of the screen, as a fair bit of the 7" panel area is wasted (as others have said).

I see that PPI doesn't "scale" with the panel size, so it's just down to say how many horizontal pixels are viewable on the 7" panel vs the 5.9" panel.
As an estimate using the horizontal viewable area (with the current warp / masking values)...

(my maths isn't great, so this is a very rough estimate. lol)

DK1 7" 800p panel 67mm (6.7cm) horiz (per eye) / 2.54 = 2.647 Inches * 216 PPI = ~569 pixels horiz viewable (per eye).

RiftUP! 5.9" 1080p panel 64mm (6.4cm) horiz (per eye) / 2.54 = 2.519 Inches * 373 PPI = ~939 pixels horiz viewable (per eye).

That's an increase in pixel density (horiz) of around 1.65. That's pretty damned good I'd say.

Hopefully my maths aren't completely off (please say if it is), and I'm probably not taking other things like warping into consideration but it gives an idea of the increase.
Of course, our brains also merge a lot of the image detail from both eyes, so the perceivable pixel density increase will be much higher than 1.65.

I'm assuming both panels have "square" pixels, so this estimate would probably work for both horizontal and vertical viewable area?

Anywho, the FAQ answers a lot of stuff now.
Can't wait to get my kit and try it out.

Regards,
OzOnE.

Post by **cgp44** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:53 pm

We had about 30 in the first day, which looks to be the level of interest in
this forum. Then just a dribble of 2 a day.

So what of the 'easily 120' of the 50k potential marketplace? RiftUP! has
not being exposed to it's real marketplace.

Post by **cgp44** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:58 pm

What would really help is a video specifically describing the experience
of the old DK1 and RIftUP! What increase in the 'presense' do you get.
Also bash out the fact you are getting twice the blue and red subpixels
of the DK2 screen.
The clever trick of the Pentile screen is exposed when you magnify 5x.

Post by **cgp44** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:05 pm

Do I get it that the low persistence attempt of restricting the vsync pin
is NOT being used in the RiftUP! Could you please reconsider doing your best
attempt or is it already hardwired into production?

Post by **budda** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:25 pm

Hi,

I'll take a guess at the amount of final orders for the RiftUp based on observations on kickstarters and the like. Budda's rule of thumb.

If 30% of the total orders, being $11,000, are made in the first 3 days then I estimate the RiftUp will get about $35,000 of orders over the 30 days of the campaign.

Lets just wait and see.

Thanks.

Post by **lnrrgb** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:47 pm

I'd say, if possible, they should ship out the early birds a.s.a.p, so the community could get some outside opinions from typical DK1 users.... before the indiegogo ends. Unless it is more profitable to take in orders post gogo. Of course, I am a little biased, tweet tweet. Once those reviews start popping up, that is when they will see orders bulk up.... or not.... but I am betting on the former.

Post by **Leahy** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:47 am

They said they had a lot of video to edit so I am assuming they will come up with a swap video to demonstrate how easy it is. I'm sure there are a number of people still too scared to open up their rift until they see it done. I wouldn't even replace the RAM in my wife's eeepc until after watching the video about how to pop it open. Also there should be a number like myself that are waiting for funds to become available.

Post by **Jose** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:37 am

Hello. With the new smaller screen, how will the old Rift demos adjust the stereo projection center to line up with the lenses?

Post by **Attreyu** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:28 am

Jose wrote:Hello. With the new smaller screen, how will the old Rift demos adjust the stereo projection center to line up with the lenses?

I think I can answer this, based on a message exchange with Palmer.

Specifically, I have asked how would the new, smaller screen of the DK2 translate in backwards compatibility with the DK1 apps.

The background is simple and I assume everybody knows it, but still, in a few sentences:

The length of the 7" screen permits (and this is universal theory of the stereoscopic process) the splitting in two equal sides, vertically.

Your eyes (if the IPD is correctly set - ie. the two lenses' centers are approx. 6.5 cm appart) look through the centers of the lenses and directly forward to the centers of the two halves of the screen. This is the ideal situation, in order not to force your eyes to diverge or converge.

Although physically the two sides of the screen are closer together (5" screens) or further appart (7" screens), your eyes' divergence or convergence is smoothed by the fact that the lenses' sweet spot in the center doesn't need to precisely match the exact center of the lens. You can watch a few mms to the sides without major issues, and still perceive a correct image on the screen.

We all know that DK1 had the 7" screen. So with the newer 5.5" the two halves of the screen are closer together. This means that the shaders on the screen need to be brought closer to center of the screen (the imaginary vertical line splitting the screen in half). This is to be done in software, and software only. It's an adjustement that no HMD builder can avoid.

So, based on this and my question, this is the answer I got:

"They will not work out of the box, people will have to recompile with our latest SDK."

So ! You either have to rebuild the games in order to work with the different sized screens (both the DK2 or the RiftUP) (which only the developer can do and would be a pain in the ass for the user, since there would be a lot of DK1 users who wouldn't be able to use their devices after the devs make the adjustments) OR update the games (or the Oculus setup utility) with a simple shader adjuster in software. I presume some kind of save/load preset option would be ideal, letting you choose between the DK1/DK2,RiftUP and other HMDs in the future.