Tuscany Razer Hydra Demo

Post by **MrGreen** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:33 am

Pardon my french but this is simply loving amazing. I'm amazed by the attention to detail they've put in, like the book catching up on fire.

If only there was a proper way to have a Rift + Hydra 360° standing up tangle free experience...

Post by **GeraldT** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:50 am

I don't disagree fully with Namielus position Nateight (and thank you for mentioning Licht

), I just think that it will be possible to integrate the LEAP into VR. Not saying that a Hydra might not be a better choice.

You see down below a picture of the first title I plan to release for the LEAP that I also want to port to the Rift: ANGLER (LICHT won't work, because of the lighting not yet supported by the Rift).

You hold a pen over the LEAP and you get a fishing Rod (yeah, not visible in the picture, use your imagination - I will release video etc. closer to launch). With it you can then fish fishes out of the lake (no more flying fishes, they are just useful to test mechanics and look good in screenshots

).

While the normal version will have a static camera, for a Rift version I will have to recreate all the surroundings - that alone might take me 2 days I guess. And I have to see how the "2D artwork" will look in 3D Rift Reality - I think objects in the distance will look fine, very cartoonish and that is okay. But what about stuff near the player? I guess I will just let him sit on an island in the middle of the lake to circumvent having near 2D objects. There will also be no movement - it might be a good title for those getting motion sick.

So I guess you have a fair idea of the situation that you will be in with the game. Now the LEAP allows for limited controls - you will use a PEN, hold it over the LEAP and it turns into a fishing rod in the game world. But the area where the fishing rod moves will be the fishing area from the normal version. So you will see a floating fishing rod (3D, not a 2D drawing) in the game world - really curious how this will work with the Rift. Will it kill your sense of immersion when you see that flying rod or will the level of control you have over it make it feel like controlling it with the Force?

It will work, it might be fun (have to see), but it is not nearly close to where I could go with a Hydra.

With a Hydra I could use one Controller as a real fishing rod, where you put the hand over your shoulder when trying to give it enough energy to "throw" the line out. The rod would be rendered near the players position and you would get a totally different gameplay that is much more realistic.

I might add Hydra support for ANGLER II - or I might not, since it would be a lot of work to integrate. But I hope this example will give you an idea of LEAP vs. Hydra in VR.

I will be able to write more on the topic once I receive my Rift - but that is still weeks away (thank god, need to finish my games for the LEAP launch ^^).
And I do have ideas on how to use the LEAP with VR that should be awesome, but I don't plan on sharing them just yet.

Post by **Pingles** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:30 am

LOVE the style. I know a lot of folks want to explore realistic worlds with the Rift but I want to be in worlds that can't exist. The more outlandish and cartoony the better for me.

Post by **Namielus** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:39 am

I really hope I am proven wrong and that a chest or head mounted leap can track your arms/hands well.
But I just don't see it happening right now from all the testing I have done.
If it turns out I am wrong, I am going to be really happy and I will continue working with my Leap Motion with
the new SDK.

Post by **totallymichael** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:42 am

I love that art style! I could totally spend my days chillin by that lake with those cute-ass fish.

Post by **unsilentwill** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:39 am

This tech is stunning, finally someone removed the superglue from the gun. This same sort of stuff was demo'd in Armored Ops back when, and it's equally exciting for gameplay. Before this, the best option to do anything in a game was Press [E] to use. And now this, you could hold a hammer, a working wrench, a torn up scrap from an instruction book you found in one hand and a magnifying glass in the other. Carefully crack the code on a safe by holding a stethoscope to it with one hand, and your fingers on the dial.

Two eyes, two hands compared to one eye and a gun. The possibilities for gameplay have EXPLODED. Skyrim/Zelda with sword and shield anyone?

Post by **mickman** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:53 am

I like how they've mapped the thumb sticks to open & close the fingers..

There's a KickStarter video demo of a campaign called the Gallery that makes use of the Hydra .. During the demo the avatar picks up several boulders but the hands are rigid ultimately delivering a rather unrealistic interaction with the objects.. but hey its early days, so they're forgiven...

note: I backed The Gallery anyway.. I'm just busting to manipulate objects in a VR scene.

HHmm.. seems I spoke to soon... I just checked my e-mail inbox & there's a message from THe GAllery dev. team

they say quote :

" I spent the past several days significantly extending the Explorer's ability to interact with the environment, improving our Razer Hydra integration, creating a realistically behaving spray can that paints on other objects in addition to the static world geometry, and rope-and-plank bridges that sway and flex in response to physical forces. "

So things a re looking up... nice one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uoh01iukus

Post by **brantlew** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:01 pm

With all the Hydra-love going on, I figured this was a nice place to insert this old thread just to catch some new eyeballs. The Hydra rocks except for one thing - it's handicapped by wires, and unfortunately Sixense is the only game in town and they somehow don't feel the need to create a wireless version of it. (personally I would pay double the price for a wireless version) Anyway, there has been some armchair talk about creating an open source copy of it. Here's the info for any of you electrical engineers and hardware nuts out there wanting to do something while you wait for your Rift....

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15431

Post by **Parallaxis** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:16 pm

brantlew wrote:With all the Hydra-love going on, I figured this was a nice place to insert this old thread just to catch some new eyeballs. The Hydra rocks except for one thing - it's handicapped by wires, and unfortunately Sixense is the only game in town and they somehow don't feel the need to create a wireless version of it. (personally I would pay double the price for a wireless version) Anyway, there has been some armchair talk about creating an open source copy of it. Here's the info for any of you electrical engineers and hardware nuts out there wanting to do something while you wait for your Rift....

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15431

If the demand for the Hydra is big enough, I think they will consider improving on it. Until a few days ago, the Hydra was probably dying a slow death with no change of future revisions. The last three days has probably changed their believe in a future for Hydra.

I still think Hydra is very much a novelty for 2D monitors. There was no chance that would ever have worked out for them.

Post by **mrklaw** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:31 pm

brantlew wrote:With all the Hydra-love going on, I figured this was a nice place to insert this old thread just to catch some new eyeballs. The Hydra rocks except for one thing - it's handicapped by wires, and unfortunately Sixense is the only game in town and they somehow don't feel the need to create a wireless version of it. (personally I would pay double the price for a wireless version) Anyway, there has been some armchair talk about creating an open source copy of it. Here's the info for any of you electrical engineers and hardware nuts out there wanting to do something while you wait for your Rift....

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15431

How well do PlayStation move controllers work on PC? I think the PS3 standard controllers connect ok via Bluetooth - can move work in the same way including the LED ball tracking?

Post by **Aabel** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:44 pm

mrklaw wrote:

How well do PlayStation move controllers work on PC? I think the PS3 standard controllers connect ok via Bluetooth - can move work in the same way including the LED ball tracking?

http://thp.io/2010/psmove/ it looks very robust and accurate. I have not actually tried it yet though as the hydra is good enough and easy enough to use.

Post by **GeraldT** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:26 pm

Parallaxis wrote: If the demand for the Hydra is big enough, I think they will consider improving on it. Until a few days ago, the Hydra was probably dying a slow death with no change of future revisions. The last three days has probably changed their believe in a future for Hydra.

I still think Hydra is very much a novelty for 2D monitors. There was no chance that would ever have worked out for them.

Agreed - at this point the fate of the Hydra is pretty much bound to the fate of the Rift. But if the Rift is a success, I can not see the Hydra or a similar controller be not. Nobody that is willing to buy a Rift will stop there once he sees a YouTube video of what the Hydra adds.

Post by **cmfockler** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:13 pm

I'm really looking forward to trying this out myself. I will be placing my Hydra order soon and also decided to bump my pledge to The Gallery up to the next level.

Does anyone have thoughts on how hard it would be to add wrist straps to the Hydra controllers? I'm thinking back to my Wii experiences and I can imagine how easy it will be to get carried away when throwing things in VR.

Reddit · Post by **nateight** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:20 pm

cmfockler wrote:Does anyone have thoughts on how hard it would be to add wrist straps to the Hydra controllers? I'm thinking back to my Wii experiences and I can imagine how easy it will be to get carried away when throwing things in VR.

It's a feature I'm surprised wasn't included, actually. I'm not sure Razer anticipated people using these things more than timidly.

There's no obvious mounting point for a strap, so I don't know what to tell you. If you hack up a solution to this please make a post about it somewhere.

Post by **WiredEarp** » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:54 pm

You could probably easily drill a hole through and tie a wrist cable around the big metal weight thats inside each of the Hydras.
Or remove the weight entirely and replace with a mount. I have no idea how well the Hydra will perform without the weight, but my guess is its just used for detecting when the Hydra is on the basepad.

Post by **benz145** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:00 am

Hey folks, that's me! I'm happy to answer questions about the demo. As I mentioned, it's the most fun I've had in VR, and I've been inside Project Holodeck and played Hawken, DriVR, and Epic Citadel.

I played the demo for about 30 minutes and didn't really want to stop but I felt bad taking up any more time! Looking at the YouTube video, I will say that it doesn't do the experience justice at all. It's at least twice as fun as it looks in the video.

I have to say, I was excited about the Rift before, but this put me over the edge. I'm calling it now -- this is the future of gaming.

Post by **benz145** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:12 am

brantlew wrote:With all the Hydra-love going on, I figured this was a nice place to insert this old thread just to catch some new eyeballs. The Hydra rocks except for one thing - it's handicapped by wires, and unfortunately Sixense is the only game in town and they somehow don't feel the need to create a wireless version of it. (personally I would pay double the price for a wireless version) Anyway, there has been some armchair talk about creating an open source copy of it. Here's the info for any of you electrical engineers and hardware nuts out there wanting to do something while you wait for your Rift....

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15431

They have wireless prototypes and intend to release them as the next step. However, in this specific demo the wires weren't hindering to the experience at all. I didn't notice them one bit.

Post by **brantlew** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:23 am

benz145 wrote:They have wireless prototypes and intend to release them as the next step.

Sign me up.

Post by **Tbone** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:01 am

benz145 wrote:Hey folks, that's me! I'm happy to answer questions about the demo. As I mentioned, it's the most fun I've had in VR, and I've been inside Project Holodeck and played Hawken, DriVR, and Epic Citadel.

I played the demo for about 30 minutes and didn't really want to stop but I felt bad taking up any more time! Looking at the YouTube video, I will say that it doesn't do the experience justice at all. It's at least twice as fun as it looks in the video.

I have to say, I was excited about the Rift before, but this put me over the edge. I'm calling it now -- this is the future of gaming.

I have a question for ya. The biggest drawback I can see for the Hydra (or any controller with a sensor that I can see) is that you have to keep your head and body orientation straight forward, towards the tracker. In other words, if I look 90 degrees to the left and try to grab or shoot something to the left of me while facing it, If I stretch out the Hydra towards the object, the Hydra will read that I'm stretching to the left of where I'm looking rather than forward. In order to reach the object, I'd either have to look left and reach 90 degrees right of where I'm looking (towards the sensor, which breaks immersion) or use the analog stick to make sure that my orientation is correct before doing anything in front of me (which I imagine would be hard to do with no reference point, especially in a swivel chair).

Did you run into this problem during the demo, where you couldn't reach in the right spot for an object because the Hydra doesn't track in relation to the Rift and you had turned your head too far away from front and center? Did you get the impression that this was an issue they are working on solving? Or is this not an issue and I just don't realize it?

Post by **ChrisJD** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:24 am

Tbone wrote:I have a question for ya. The biggest drawback I can see for the Hydra (or any controller with a sensor that I can see) is that you have to keep your head and body orientation straight forward, towards the tracker.

You don't need to have the hydra pointed towards the base unit.

As long as the game if written to account for the Rift and Hydra you are describing a non-existent problem.

Post by **Tbone** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:20 am

So they've programmed the Hydra to track in the virtual space instead of based on the direction you are facing in the virtual space? Nice. If that's the case, the only limitation would be how far the Hydra can reach, eh?

Post by **V8Griff** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:35 am

Tbone wrote:So they've programmed the Hydra to track in the virtual space instead of based on the direction you are facing in the virtual space?

No that is a feature of magnetic tracking. In the Hydra's case the green ball on the base is the 'source' and the controllers each contain a 'receiver'. The source creates a low power magnetic field and the position of the receivers inside that field is calculated in 3D space.

The requirement to be facing the base on initialisation is a requirement of all magnetic trackers so that the system has a reference point and so that you are properly orientated in the virtual world.

Tbone wrote:Nice. If that's the case, the only limitation would be how far the Hydra can reach, eh?

The range of the system is dictated by a number of factors but the major one is the size of the magnetic field and that is related to the size of the source. The Ascension 'Flock of Birds' has a large tracking area and it has a correspondingly large source as can be seen in this post HERE

The Hydra is a good start but I'd suggest it needs beefing up to achieve greater range and accuracy, amazing price point though.

Post by **Kra** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:34 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that the Hydra actually was wireless in the developer version, but they decided on wired for release because of latency problems. It'll be interesting to see how they fixed this.

Post by **V8Griff** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:55 am

Kra wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that the Hydra actually was wireless in the developer version, but they decided on wired for release because of latency problems. It'll be interesting to see how they fixed this.

You're correct and being low powered I'd be surprised if they can fix it with the existing hardware. At least with the wires attached you're less likely to exceed the range of the base unit.

Even the majority of the high end systems are still wired for accuracy so I'm not sure why there is this obsession with the need for controllers to be wireless. Apart from the potential of moving out of the magnetic field, in my experience players do not turn 360 degrees when playing a VR game. They tend to turn through 180 degrees maximum and then turn back the way they came, rarely did we have to make someone turn back to untangle themselves.

Post by **donkaradiablo** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:39 am

This guy uses a west with the hydra for 360 degree gaming:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWRVGlwkAx4[/youtube]

I'd rather go wireless if that's an option.

Post by **V8Griff** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:54 am

donkaradiablo wrote:This guy uses a vest with the hydra for 360 degree gaming:

I'd rather go wireless if that's an option.

Yea but he does what I said he turns 180 then goes back the way he came.

Think about it when you turn and look behind you in 'real life' what do you do? I'll bet 9 time
out of ten you turn back the same way and not do a 360.

Post by **donkaradiablo** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:16 am

He has a TV, not a Rift... for the moment. Of course he'll turn back

Imagine turning right in a game... then right again.... just because the level is designed that way. I need my 360 degrees

Post by **V8Griff** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:23 am

donkaradiablo wrote:He has a TV, not a Rift... for the moment. Of course he'll turn back

Imagine turning right in a game... then right again.... just because the level is designed that way. I need my 360 degrees

Oh yea obviously but what I meant was he didn't keep going.

I get what you're saying but I think you'll find it's unnatural to keep going and so you'll turn so far then turn back. I'm only commenting on what I saw over years of watching people playing immersed games. Anyway once you have your Rift and you're in there you'll see what I mean.

Post by **brantlew** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:48 am

V8Griff wrote:
donkaradiablo wrote:This guy uses a vest with the hydra for 360 degree gaming:

I'd rather go wireless if that's an option.
Yea but he does what I said he turns 180 then goes back the way he came.

Think about it when you turn and look behind you in 'real life' what do you do? I'll bet 9 time
out of ten you turn back the same way and not do a 360.

This is not an issue of human nature. It's entirely dictated by the environment as to which direction you turn and how many revolutions you make. Sure you can construct environments that tend to keep the player unwound but that seems like an artificial limitation to me. I would much prefer untethered 360 movement and no requirement that the environment be linear.

If a wireless Hydra existed right now, it would mean that an enthusiast with a backtop could whip up a few lines of code and achieve full 360 angular and full positional head tracking easily. That would be enormously simpler than the complexities and compromises they currently have to go through with Kinects, IR cameras, etc...

Post by **V8Griff** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:27 am

brantlew wrote:This is not an issue of human nature. It's entirely dictated by the environment as to which direction you turn and how many revolutions you make. .

I disagree and I don't think you can make such a sweeping statement without evidence to back it up. I do agree that some environments will encourage you to restrict your turning but that is not to say human nature has nothing to do with it.

I've observed hundreds if not thousands of people playing Dactyl Nightmare which was a full 360 degree world with no incentive to turn back and yet people still would turn back after going through 180 degrees. That was also nothing to do with restrictions on movement as the cabling on Virtuality systems were more than capable of allowing you to do a full 360.

Post by **donkaradiablo** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:58 am

Did you know that in a perfect open market and a perfect centralized one, the end result is the same in theory?

I want to get lost in the game world.

If freewill ends up getting the same result as careful planning, does it matter? Yes it does. The result may be the same, but the feeling of freedom, detachment from the real world environment and immersion won't be the same. If I end up turning back 180 degrees, it has to be because my "human nature" prefers it, not because wires dictate it.

Post by **V8Griff** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:12 am

donkaradiablo wrote:Did you know that in a perfect open market and a perfect centralized one, the end result is the same in theory?

I want to get lost in the game world.

If freewill ends up getting the same result as careful planning, does it matter? Yes it does. The result may be the same, but the feeling of freedom, detachment from the real world environment and immersion won't be the same. If I end up turning back 180 degrees, it has to be because my "human nature" prefers it, not because wires dictate it.

I totally understand where you're coming from, and from what I experienced with the tech of 'the last coming' I can guarantee that with today's better graphic engines, displays and better designed environments you will get lost in the game world.

What I'm saying is that I don't necessarily think you need to be wireless to achieve that. Time will tell but lets hope whatever the future holds be it wired or wireless that VR doesn't fall by the wayside as it did in the'90s.

Post by **brantlew** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:32 am

V8Griff wrote:I disagree and I don't think you can make such a sweeping statement without evidence to back it up. I do agree that some environments will encourage you to restrict your turning but that is not to say human nature has nothing to do with it.

I've observed hundreds if not thousands of people playing Dactyl Nightmare which was a full 360 degree world with no incentive to turn back and yet people still would turn back after going through 180 degrees. That was also nothing to do with restrictions on movement as the cabling on Virtuality systems were more than capable of allowing you to do a full 360.

ok, it's a bit sweeping but its at least partially deductive. It can't be argued that to keep a constantly moving person within a confined virtual space that they must somehow make 180 turns. I guess you are saying that 90% of the time they player will turn around in one direction and then automatically unwind in the other direction when they need to turn again. You are right that I don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise, but I think it's an even more spectacular statement to say that this is the natural way that people move in the real world - as if when I was facing north I tended to turn clockwise but when I was facing south I turned counter-clockwise. If I were to hypothesize I would assume the opposite - that a person's naturally tendencies caused them to turn more often in a single direction. Can you clarify this?

Post by **KBK** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:55 am

If this was not true, then there would never be case of a dog tangled in it's rope on the dog house, or a lack of blankets at 4am.

Post by **V8Griff** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:56 am

brantlew wrote: I guess you are saying that 90% of the time the player will turn around in one direction and then automatically unwind in the other direction when they need to turn again.

That's what I'm saying and it was higher than 90% when immersed.

brantlew wrote: You are right that I don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise, but I think it's an even more spectacular statement to say that this is the natural way that people move in the real world - as if when I was facing north I tended to turn clockwise but when I was facing south I turned counter-clockwise. Can you clarify this?

It was something I noticed when watching people playing the VR systems and I wondered if it was something to do with the way we interact with our own natural compasses so I took the time to watch people outside of the influence of the systems.

Just watch unprompted people when they are walking, stop, turn and look around, they will more often than not return to their previous heading by turning back the same way that they turned, unless of course they're staring at something of interest like a circular painting or similar. I'm not sure if the magnetic heading affects us but as it does alter the way water spins as it goes down a plug hole depending if you're in the Northern or Southern hemisphere maybe we are affected?

Another thing on a similar vein I have noticed is the tendency for people to use the left hand doors when faced with a bank of doors on entering a large department store or mall and they will queue even to the exclusion of free doors to their right. That may have more to do with the natural tendency to follow people ahead of us but it's interesting watching people flows created by simulated evacuation flow analysis and that did seem to follow a pattern. This may be unrelated, and probably is but I'm just wondering if it's something we do naturally to maintain our natural status quo.

All interesting stuff.

Post by **V8Griff** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:58 am

KBK wrote:If this was not true, then there would never be case of a dog tangled in it's rope on the dog house, or a lack of blankets at 4am.

Surely that's a different instinct?

Post by **Namielus** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:10 am

Observe the recorded path of a right handed man trying his best to walk forward while blindfolded.
He walked in a spiral towards the right, believing he was walking straight forward.

Post by **V8Griff** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:21 am

Namielus wrote:Observe the recorded path of a right handed man trying his best to walk forward while blindfolded.
He walked in a spiral towards the right, believing he was walking straight forward.

That's a different effect again it's well known that we favour one leg against the other so we tend to walk in circles that's nothing to do with standing on the spot and turning.

Post by **Namielus** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:30 am

You can just as easily fool a person to walk in the opposite direction still believing he is walking straight forward.
http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2008/12/02/red ... ns-limits/
And I have also demoed DIY Rifts to about 50 people standing up and I have not observed what you are claiming.

Post by **MichaelH** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:34 am

V8Griff wrote:I'm not sure if the magnetic heading affects us but as it does alter the way water spins as it goes down a plug hole depending if you're in the Northern or Southern hemisphere maybe we are affected?

Magnetic heading does not effect us in any measured way. Water does not spin a different direction depending on hemisphere under any reasonable condition. That is more at the scale of weather systems or in carefully controlled experiments.

Namielus wrote:Observe the recorded path of a right handed man trying his best to walk forward while blindfolded.
He walked in a spiral towards the right, believing he was walking straight forward.

This is what immediately came to mind. Just a general tendency to do loops.

V8Griff wrote:That's a different effect again it's well known that we favour one leg against the other so we tend to walk in circles that's nothing to do with standing on the spot and turning.

People don't tend to walk one way or the other. They more just follow the grade of the terrain depending on the direction they came in.