Oculus Virtual Lounge (VirtuaView)

Post by **Namielus** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:59 pm

How about 12pm EST, 5PM BST tomorrow?

Post by **defactoman** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:16 pm

Sounds fine

Post by **Namielus** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:49 am

My kickstarter project was declined due to not meeting project guidelines. I don't get what guideline im breaking.
I have only one chance for appeal. But they didnt tell me what guideline im breaking.

I am really confused and dissapointed.

Post by **ednax** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:00 am

Are there any objections to post the full text and video here?
Maybe we can help with that?

Post by **Namielus** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:04 am

there isnt a kickstarter video produced yet, the video there was only to show its not vaporware.
But this wasnt critism on the format of the kickstarter, this was what they said:

We review projects to ensure they meet our Project Guidelines (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines), which define how Kickstarter can be used. They express our commitment to being a platform for projects in the creative arts.

Unfortunately, this project does not meet our guidelines. This isn't a judgment on the quality of this project, just a reflection of our focus.

We wish you the best as you continue to pursue this endeavor. If you have future projects that meet our focus, we hope you'll consider Kickstarter again.

Best,
Kickstarter

Post by **Paintbrush** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:18 am

This is really really strange...
The only guideline that might be the issue (but still doesn't make sense) is this one: Kickstarter cannot be used to fund e-commerce, business, and social networking websites or apps.

Maybe they thought about multiplayer aspect of your app as social networking? Not that it makes much sense.

Post by **Namielus** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:28 am

It would help me if they actually said what guideline was broken.
I have one chance at appeal, how do I appeal when they do not state what the issue is?

Post by **TheHolyChicken** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:29 am

Don't start guessing - ask them for clarification.

Post by **Namielus** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:53 am

They are not easy communicating with. I asked them once before for some advice and all they do is link to the already available guidelines.

I have messaged them again tho asking for clarification.
Never in my wildest dreams would I think my project is less "creative" than all the gadgets and hardware that has been sold there.

Post by **braddas** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:48 am

Wow, weird and disappointing. I also wonder if they mistook it for some sort of social networking thing.

Our categories are Art, Comics, Dance, Design, Fashion, Film, Food, Games, Music, Photography, Publishing, Technology, and Theater.

Those are all extremely broad categories, but I'm not honestly 100% sure which one the Virtual Lounge fits into. Maybe Kickstarter weren't sure either... Did you pick a category yourself when setting up the Kickstarter, or are they supposed to do it?

Post by **Namielus** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:48 am

Braddas, thats the thing. This isnt about detail like wrong category or not enough proof that I can achieve this. If it was some details, they would tell me I need to fix it and then resubmit.
You can have 3 results:
Accepted
Need fixing
Declined

Being declined means that kickstarter considers it to not fit their concept at all in any category and finds it fundamentally unsuitable for kickstarter.
I was deeply heartbroken about this, because setting up the british account and all these details for kickstarter has required months of work.

I am at the point where I know what needs to be done, but I just dont have the energy anymore. So many things are working against me, its breaking me down.

This means it might be better to launch it on indiegogo instead, and pray for MTBS members speaking loudly that they still believe in me.
Theres only so much more obstacles in the road I can take at this point.

Guys, I really don't want to be a crybaby here, im just being open about the challenges I am having.

Post by **geekmaster** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:04 am

Try PMing a successful kickstarter member, such as PalmerTech or JanVR. and see if they can offer any kickstarter advice. Prepare to wait up to a few weeks for an answer though. Some of these guys are pretty busy.

It would be great to stay in the respectable kickstarter neighborhood. Indiegogo has a reputation as a scamfest, and rightfully so. As long as an Indiegogo campaign is not selling something illegal, and their listing does not contain copyrighted images or text, anything goes, no matter how disreputable.

For example, the Indiegogo campaign that was selling the Virtuix Omni with much higher tiers, used JanVR's photos, and was shut down.

Whereas the BugZ guys took all their own photos of an off-the shelf product (after removing it from packaging), claimed they invented it, and posted photos of them "assembling" it (after opening and disassembling it first, of course), and they set their tiers at more than double the purchase price plus shipping, of the retail product they are selling. That listing remains, because their text full of lies is allowed there, and they took their own photos of an existing product, claiming it as their own invention.

Kickstarter is much more stringent, making people a bit more willing to participate. But in your case kickstarter also seems to be arbitrary and capricious. It would be great if there was a reputable kickstarter alternative.

Post by **Namielus** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:23 am

For me theres also an issue with time now. I cannot wait anymore.
And im so incredibly tired of handling bureaucracy on my own. Ive been working at this for many months now.
But then again after my IndieGogo ends I can still go on kickstarter to fund the rest!
The project is still sitting there waiting for appeal, or I can resubmit a similar project.

Post by **geekmaster** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:35 am

Namielus wrote:For me theres also an issue with time now. I cannot wait anymore.
And im so incredibly tired of handling bureaucracy on my own. Ive been working at this for many months now.
But then again after my IndieGogo ends I can still go on kickstarter to fund the rest!
The project is still sitting there waiting for appeal, or I can resubmit a similar project.

It sounds like a kickstarter application attempt is not unlike the patent application process. To get his WizDish patent, flassan had to challenge multiple "patent application final rejection" notices, with a long history of paperwork back and forth, perhaps finally wearing down the patent examiners. Rather than "blind justice", it is the guy with the most persistence who wins in the end (which is why the "patent troll" business is so lucrative). Too bad you can only challenge this mysterious kickstarter rejection one time, and with no knowledge of why it was rejected. That is "patently unfair". Like I said, consult with PalmerTech and/or JanVR, and see if they have any suggestions of what to do next. Although very busy, they are both good guys and will probably give you some guidance through this kickstarter maze, if you can wait for a reply.

Before just "giving up", you may want to take a short break from all this (perhaps a vacation), and then try it again. Just giving up will have long term negative consequences for your life, and for future projects you may otherwise accomplish. Please, do not just give up. Seek advice, and then challenge the rejection and/or reapply.

Post by **Namielus** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:37 am

I will message them, but time is still an issue even if they reply right away.

Post by **Vamplifire** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:52 am

Maybe there is something we can do? Like E-Mail kickstarter and demand they accept this. If we setup a petition or something? I would more than willing to get facebook friends to share the petition as I'm sure anyone else on this thread would. If kickstarter saw how many people really wanted this application they might take a second look without you even having to submit it again.

Post by **Namielus** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:55 am

I am taking geekmasters advice into consideration. But I want other peoples input to:

1) Wait and try more on kickstarter (thats more energy spent on non-development)
2) Just run in on indiegogo
3) Run on indiegogo to get whatever I can there and then do the rest on kickstarter when I have more to show

what do you guys think?

Post by **defactoman** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:26 am

I really hate the non-feedback submission process. I've had to deal with it before and it's very frustrating. I'm kinda with option 1, just see where you get on Kickstarter. If for no other reason then you've put a great deal of effort into the process already you should at least see it through to your final chance at re-submission before putting any more stress on yourself by also doing indigogo at the same time.

Post by **Vamplifire** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:55 am

I would say 1 or 3. Though you do need to get the ball rolling and get money rolling in soon.

Post by **Fredz** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:50 am

Could be one of those I guess, just some random hypotheses :

1) Kickstarter cannot be used to fund e-commerce, business, and social networking websites or apps.

Since late 2012 I have been working on a Virtual Lounge concept, which enables you to interact with your friends in various ways.
=> That's may be seen as a social networking app I'd say...

2) Kickstarter cannot be used to fund software projects not run by the developers themselves.

The money raised here will be used to hire more talent to join my project. I have made it this far, and with help from Krillbite Studios I am confident I will be able to hire the right guys to join my team.
=> may imply that you're not the developer and that you have already hired people and a studio, and that the money will only help you hire more people. They could also have already read about the project in several forums and articles and know that you're not a developer.

3) Projects cannot resell items or offer rewards not produced by the project or its creator.

Watch movies or live sports with your friend across the world and much more. [...] Imagine being able to sign into VirtuaView with your friends to watch a football game or a movie.
=> movies and live sports are not produced by the project. Also looks like an e-commerce app where you buy content (related to point 1). Maybe it would be better to explain how the content is obtained, through a TV tuner inside a PC, live streaming from know sites (which ones ?) or through movies you already own in DVD/Blu-Ray format.

These ones are in the "Hardware and Product Design guidelines", not sure if it applies to software, but I guess it could (it's still a product) :

4) Projects must be clear about their state of development, and cannot be presented as preorders of finished products.

As long as I have the platform I have built now, It is nearly limitless how much content can be added.
=> implies the product is finished and only content is missing, nothing is said about the current state of development.

5) Projects must explain how the final design is likely to differ from the prototype, and include a production plan (i.e., how you're going to make it) and an estimated timeline.

The funding goal will allow me to get one step further towards that concept.
=> Nothing precise about the difference between now and the future. No production plan and estimated timeline either. You need to give date estimates I think.

Example :
- Q3 2013 : VirtuaView alpha
- Q4 2013 : VirtuaView beta
- Q1 2014 : VirtuaView RC & final
- Q1 2014 : Virtual Lounge alpha
- Q2 2014 : Virtual Lounge beta
- Q3 2014 : Virtual Lounge RC & final
- Q4 2014 : Final release

Post by **Namielus** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:28 am

Thanks for the detailed input fredz. I just had a fun session with Paul and Ben from roadtovr, and defactoman. THey seemed to enjoy the features I have so far despite some issues.

Tonight im going to have to think about how much more trouble I can handle setting up kickstarter or if I "give up" and do it on indiegogo.

Post by **geekmaster** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:29 am

Fredz wrote:... Watch movies or live sports with your friend across the world and much more. [...] Imagine being able to sign into VirtuaView with your friends to watch a football game or a movie.
=> movies and live sports are not produced by the project. Also looks like an e-commerce app where you buy content (related to point 1). Maybe it would be better to explain how the content is obtained, through a TV tuner inside a PC, live streaming from know sites (which ones ?) or through movies you already own in DVD/Blu-Ray format.. ..

Beware that rebroadcasting TV tuner content could be used to share sporting events that are locally blacked out. Also, sharing a DVD or BluRay with friends over the internet may be considered as illegal distribution of Intellectual Property.

Kickstarter could have "deep pockets" legal defense costs if they allowed such projects, and if they were targetted by a pack of hungry lawyers. Also, there could easily be patent trolls attracted by the broad nature of this project, with so much tasty and tempting "low hanging fruit".

Perhaps that is why kickstarter disallows broad multi-category projects. And social networking COULD be used for additional unauthorized sharing of IP, or even a vehicle for illegal information exchange. Imagine a terrorist group using this for recruiting, or for teaching how to build an IED, and I can see why kickstarter may be hesitant.

Indiegogo allows just about anything, hence their ghetto reputation.

Perhaps you need to narrow your scope to make this project acceptable to kickstarter. That could be accomplished with a bunch of narrowly defined independent "plug-ins", similar to what was discussed in my "Rift Rider" thread.

Even if you succeed with Indiegogo, you still might have patent trolls and media content providers nipping at your ankles if you get their attention.

IMHO...

Post by **Namielus** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:32 am

you wont be streaming footage, it just syncs it. Meaning both needs a bluray or you need to set up your own streaming software.
The cinema can take streams yes, but still everyone needs access to the same stream.
So im not sharing any content in any way, just synchronizing it.

Thats exactly due to the copyright issues

Post by **geekmaster** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:34 am

Namielus wrote:you wont be streaming footage, it just syncs it. Meaning both needs a bluray or you need to set up your own streaming software.
The cinema can take streams yes, but still everyone needs access to the same stream.
So im not sharing any content in any way, just synchronizing it.

Thats exactly due to the copyright issues

You need to spell that out very clearly in your kickstarter application, and word things to fit their categories precisely, and clearly distinguish your project as NOT social networking or other forbidden topics.

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:49 pm

Hi Guys!
This is where I make a decision. Do I wait, appeal and fight kickstarter that shut me down in such a cold uninterested way? The people that made it so incredibly hard to even apply in the first place?
Or do I go with the less credible Indiegogo?
Its sitting there ready for launch at the click of a button, and the only thing that can stop me is last minute doubts.

There is a very strong chance for this;

TONIGHT, in 2 HOURS from this post is made I am launching on IndieGOGO

Thank you Geekmaster, Fredz and everyone else for all the insightfull advice you have giving me. And sorry for not listening to it.
If you are interested, I can share why I made the decision below:

These problems I have been running into since august 2012, has taken its toll. It's not a simple matter of taking a break, it would constantly be on my mind.
I started paying another studio to make this application originally in UDK.
Unfortunately, they where unable to make a custom file browser, it only supported one format; BINK and they couldnt even do the correct field of view in stereoscopic mode or headtracking.
No hate towards them, but it was a heavy burden because I lost a lot of money for their work.
I was close to giving up, but made breaktroughs all alone in Unity3D. I could not believe the progress I made all alone. Got stereoscopic video working, headtracking (trackir5 at the time) and could support a huge range of formats dynamically loaded from disk. This was early 2013.

The feedback started getting great on here, and on youtube. 25 000 views on youtube is mindblowing for me considering where it started out.

For 4 months I have been struggling with setting up the paperwork for Kickstarter.
I had to hire a lawyer to set up a company in uk, I had to travel all the way to UK and bring lots of papers (proof of residence) to be able to set up a UK account.
Then I had to explain, and explain over again why I needed to set up the account and what Kickstarter is.
I got a thumbs up and thought it was all finally ready on paper.
A while later , I got the opposite message.
The papers wasn't enough. Following this was weeks and months of sending papers that was declined, resulted in me having to sign my girlfriends utility bills over in my name.
More Norwegian paperwork to deliver papers to UK to get a bankaccount so that I could get the papers in order for Kickstarter.
That was the only paper with proof of adress they would accept even tho I brought a drivers license and a valid passport, my tax return papers and so on.

Lots of people have promised me help for the kickstarter, but never delivered.
Spent a lot of time talking to people who claimed to be officially with big companies like Netflix, and was convinced I would get a deal with delivering native netflix in my software.
Huge amount of time spent on nothing.
To anyone on this forum that has offered help; Don't get me wrong and think im talking about you.
Some might still deliver, and then some I haven't gotten back to yet.
I might still call in some favors. I really hold no grudges, what im doing here is giving everyone a picture of why im so tired of running into problems.

I understand the logic thing would be to appeal more to kickstarter, since it cost me a great deal of money to set it up.
The problem is I cannot take this stress anymore, and working on stuff that's not creative kills me.

Post by **geekmaster** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:07 pm

Namielus wrote:TONIGHT, in 2 HOURS from this post is made I am launching on IndieGOGO
...
The problem is I cannot take this stress anymore, and working on stuff that's not creative kills me.[/i][/size]

I certainly understand the reasoning. Been there. Doing the real work is much more fun than all the other mundane crap involved in running a business.

I do not have an Inidegogo account, probably required to support you there. I hope they do not disclose my real name, or sell my email address to spammers...

I hope you have enough tiers to make it worth signing up for people who are primarily kickstarter supporters...

Good luck!

Post by **Marulu** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:16 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raRFdVki-xQ

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:33 pm

Few thoughts about the video:

The reason why the voices from the multiplayer are so low is that there are background music in the footage. If it was louder it would mix badly with the soundtrack.
Also, I will be showing my face and speaking in some updates, I just didnt find it ideal to be speaking about kickstarter in the footage I have already.

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:22 pm

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/virtu ... 4568#share

No going back now.. I finally caved in and put it on Indiegogo.

I sincerely hope you guys will back me as much as you can at least in terms of spreading the word.
If you want to show me that you believe in my project, this is definitely the way.

Post by **geekmaster** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:36 pm

Namielus wrote:http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/virtu ... 4568#share

No going back now.. I finally caved in and put it on Indiegogo.

I sincerely hope you guys will back me as much as you can at least in terms of spreading the word.
If you want to show me that you believe in my project, this is definitely the way.

Okay, first backer here. Don't really need a dog picture. Got any cats?

Here is an image Supporters can add to their signature:

ViruaView.jpg

Use this code in your MTBS User Profile Signature:

Code: Select all

Namielus' Oculus Virtual Lounge:
[url=http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/virtuaview/x/3696649][img]http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/download/file.php?id=2924[/img][/url]

UPDATE: There is a new smaller image and signature code block (as requesting by a thread owner) here:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 14#p134314

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:42 pm

thanks! Might be a dumb thing I did, but I needed to get it over with.
Since you ask, I will make an exception for you.

Post by **geekmaster** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:01 pm

Hmm... I just realized that I left the 't' out of the indiegogo campaign image filename. Oh well, people may have already linked to it like I did, and the filename is not visible in the signature anyway. It will stand as-is. At least I spelled it correctly when I uploaded it to the OculusVR forum.

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:03 pm

geekmaster, thanks alot for the backer support and the signature. Looks really great.
did you get the cat picture? haha

Post by **geekmaster** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:16 pm

Namielus wrote:geekmaster, thanks alot for the backer support and the signature. Looks really great.
did you get the cat picture? haha

Got the cat picture. Thanks. You should add that to the $30 tier, with a comment to contact you with a selection of cat or dog. Needing to choose one adds to the interest. There are a lot of cat lovers out there (including me). Sadly, my wife is a dog person, so we have neither. We just have a HUGE vegetable garden (her hobby), and I have a huge collection of awesome techno-toys (my life).

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:25 pm

Haha right! I have three very different dogs and a cat. Maybe also show him with gps/gsm backpack hahaha

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:41 pm

I backed it. Good luck.

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:44 pm

thanks Cyber, to anyone who backs; I will be delivering the first rewards tomorrow. Its too late here and I need sleep.
Cheers!

Post by **everix92** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:05 pm

Sad to hear about this not making it onto Kickstarter. However, I will be backing this on Indiegogo first thing in the morning.

Also, do you still have editing privileges for your main post/description after the campaign has launched (as in right now)? I'm a nitpicker and noticed quite a few spelling errors that I'd be happy to point out if they can be fixed

Post by **geekmaster** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:14 pm

everix92 wrote:Sad to hear about this not making it onto Kickstarter. However, I will be backing this on Indiegogo first thing in the morning.

Also, do you still have editing privileges for your main post/description after the campaign has launched (as in right now)? I'm a nitpicker and noticed quite a few spelling errors that I'd be happy to point out if they can be fixed

Yeah, while you are at that, the terminology is inconsistent between tiers, making it unclear whether or not each tier includes everything in the tier below it. And the product name keeps changing too, with implications in some tiers of more than one product. You should model the "includes everything in the previous tier" statement, or similar, like what you can read at the Virtuix Omni or Oculus Rift kickstarters (when appropriate). It is rather confusing now. Consistent naming helps a LOT!

And the product name seems to be different at the OculusVR forum too. You should change the title of your first post to insert "Virtual Lounge" before those other keywords, I believe. That is its original name, and how we will remember and find it (at least for awhile).

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:24 pm

Need sleep right now but it can be edited. Keep the feedback flowing