Meant to be Seen

Get 2 monitors side by side with dual output hmd driver (iz3d?) and view with something like this-

http://www.pokescope.com/pokescopeinfo.html



Found more veiwers-

http://www.stereoaids.com.au/inst/screenscope.html

http://tyrell-innovations.com/jpsVisor.htm

Now catch me if im wrong but wouldnt this be one of the easiest, possibly cheapest, most visually superior stereo solutions availabe?
Full resolution, no ghosting, no brightness loss. You could even add fresnel lenses for added depth that you cant do with polarized setups.

Making up a head mounted unit would be the trick and adjusting the width/angle of the scope and monitors should be reasonably easy.



The red parts are simple mirrors or a prism.

As a test i tried this in one eye holding 2 small mirrors by hand and was able to bring it into focus with my free eye easily. Something similar to this-



This shows that only a monocular prism need be used if desired, why go to all the trouble of having full sized mirrors and the need for perfect head positioning with the older method of planner.
Can someone with a dual display setup try this with some hand held mirrors and iz3d?

hi! well this solution has big downsides too.. first of all you have to wear that big thing while gaming and it might not be easy.. second you need to have 2 monitors which mosth people dont have.. and that might be expensive at the end.

by the way, could you please upload the picutre in the gallery and then use the IMG tag in the forum? else ina week when the article isn't sold anymore we might have a dead link

thnx.

igor

If Iz3D could provide the driver, wouldn't it be much more easy (and cheaper), to make the scope only for one screen and then make a HMD of it?
The HMD is fixes the problem with the fixed head position and gives a completly new feeling.
Maybe there would be needed especially small displays.

The easiest mechanical solution would be to make it like this one.

I tested it with 2 Monitors and the problems are
1) driver
2) the mirror might have some 'doubeling' because it reflects at the front AND at the backside of it.
3) Fixed head position.

1) Convince IZ3D to make a Planar mode for only 1 screen.
- Choose, which side gets mirrored,
- provide a version which doesn't get mirrored for 2 mirrors in the optics
- provide a version for x-eyed (crosseyed) viewing

2) Maybe have a good mirror and not the cheapest on possible
3) Make all this into a HMD and you can move your head, how you want

With only one screen you would half the resolution but i suppose you could buy a cheap single display hmd if you had a driver for side by side. If you want to make a head mounted unit im pretty sure it would end up cheaper and more effective to buy a ready made hmd.

The solution in the link seems less effective because of the ugly setup and alignement rquired. With my sugested method you will have 2 same monitors for use in dual view and then just put on the scope for 3d. No dodgy mirrors in the way. The good part is that you can just buy a second similar monitor to the one you have.

I have had word back from the guy selling the Pokescope and he says you would need to sit several feet back to view 2x19inch lcd's. If this is because of the veiwable area or the straight focal point im not sure. I had imagined modding the hinge so it could open past 180 degrees and both eyes look outward slightly, then just angle the monitors toward you to keep the view square.

Would be cool if someone with 2 monitors and the iz3d driver could test something like this.

Perhaps even some small cheap binoculars could be modded to work because all you need are some prisms or mirrors to aim the eyes with.

I am exploring options....

Hi,

I tried all of this! There is just no way that you can get this to work with a head mounted angling device like binoculars or that poketscope for two reason:

1.) Light always travles in a straight line (for all practical matters atleast ... Einstein would disagree I know). That means you cant bend light but have to use the fact that it travels faster, slower in different enviorments ... hence the use of a prism. Here you get in to the problem, that you would need to break the lights straight traveling path to a degree that would always distort colors! (To look at two display (19'') at one meter away you'd have to have an angle which you can only achieve with a prism that would split the light into its different colors. That happens no matter how hughe that angle is. It is just more visible with greater angles. The reason for that is what makes breaking the straight path of light possible in the first place: different speeds/engery levels of the colored light)

2.) The hole stereoscopic 3d effect is base on the overlapping of two different perspectives of the same scene in the same physical (IZ3D Monitor) or virtual (HMD) space. If you use an head mounted device any movment of the head ... and I mean ANY (even millimeters) will destroy the 3d effect or will get you sick very very quick. Trust me I tried

Thats why the only possible method is actually the one shown in that link with those two monitors and the mirror. If you use a front surface mirror you have zero ghosting and full colors (cost around 100 euro in this size). Since I am using as a second s3d setup with that method I can asure you that you can easily move your head around a few centimeters without any problems at all and still enjoy a cristal clear s3d picture.

The big disadvantage is ofcourse that you have to have one monitor mirrored. But for that there are two easy solutions:

1.) Get two crts. Open one and rewire it so it will show its picture mirrored! Costs: 0 Euro. Be very careful here, thats highly dangerous if you dont take propper precautions. If you are interessted in that there is a very good youtube video showing this (I'll send you the link)

2.) Ask IZ3D to include this option via their driver for the 1.09 Version!
They are actually allready considering this because all planar mirror setups (which are very sophisticated s3d rigs and are quiet expensive) would then be supported by IZ3D.

Like you can see I did experiment with those possibilities quiet a bit. That does not mean you should stop know. If you by any chance come up with a different working solution I would glady be hearing about it

Cheers Antony

Okta wrote:With only one screen you would half the resolution but i suppose you could buy a cheap single display hmd if you had a driver for side by side. If you want to make a head mounted unit im pretty sure it would end up cheaper and more effective to buy a ready made hmd.

I have never tried or seen a common single display HMD. How is it designed? Is there one screen and both optics see the whole screen? Then your Idea would not work
If you see only the left halve with the left eye, it would work great, but I doubt it

For the self made HMD old parts could be used, so it might turn out not too expencive. Maybe even some LCD's with not working backligt, which could be replaced with LED's

The solution in the link seems less effective because of the ugly setup and alignement rquired. With my sugested method you will have 2 same monitors for use in dual view and then just put on the scope for 3d. No dodgy mirrors in the way. The good part is that you can just buy a second similar monitor to the one you have.

I didn't mean exactly this setup, but if you use LCD's instead (one own and a borrowed one?) it could be done very cheap and maybe also a little nicer

MrHugoHugo, im liking the look of the JPSviewer in my new link up top. It has adjustable view so it would suit the angled lcd's in my drawing perfectly. I hear what you saying about movement but with the correct angled viewer and the eyes ability to correct it seems that the 2 monitors would be in perfect square focus even with some head movement, at worst a fixed mount for the viewer could be made to look into like this one -http://www.stereoaids.com.au/inst/screenscope.html

I like this idea. The jpsVisor can be had for just $30. I do believe they will need to be immobilized similar to the ScreenScope. The ScreenScope is $100 for the handheld and $200 for the viewer & mounting system. Asking a little too much money for what you get if you ask me.

http://www.berezin.com/3D/screenscope.htm
http://tyrell-innovations-usa.com/shack ... ucts_id=21

I do have a pair of 21" CRTs I bought used for super cheap. The Used Computers store even tried to give me a small 15" CRT. LCDs have taken over and I hate them! Sure their light weight and take up less space but they also have HUGE drawbacks! Some Major ones being Inconsistent brightness across the screen, Locked at Native Resolution for proper viewing, and Low Refresh Rates. I got the two Compaq P1220 CRTs for only $100 each. I plan on buying the jpsVisor and experimenting with iZ3D HMD driver. I would still prefer my shutter glasses for simplicity Nvidia doesn't like to keep customers or at least keep them informed.

I emailed that guy who said you will need to be about 3 feet away to use the jpsvisor. Although it is a decent size once you reflct that image to the second mirror you lose heaps of height and width. If you set up your monitors and the driver you hand hold 2 compact mirrors to test it out on one eye.

I just received the jpsVisor and tested it in conjunction with the iZ3D drivers in HMD/Dual Screen Mode. It works well but only at 4' away from my 21" CRTs. It simply doesn't have enough adjustment to view any closer. It is intended to be used with a single monitor and is designed only for that adjustment range. A small tab on the top is connected to arms that rotate the two outer mirror's angles. I decided the device is useless for my needs. I then decided to break the tab thus freeing the outer mirrors for greater rotation. This worked only slightly. Unfortunately the two inner mirrors also need to be adjusted and they are locked into place. the device is well glued together. Some serious Breaking/Modification is needed to use it to game with two monitors. On the upside you don't need to remain perfectly still to view. Similar to shutter glasses you just need to stay centered with whatever you are viewing. You could easily use them as a pair of glasses. They are not very heavy. I plan on doing some more Modding to see if I can get them working at gaming distance.

http://tyrell-innovations-usa.com/shack ... ucts_id=21

Just a little update. I found I was able to dismantle the jpsVisor fairly easily with a razor knife. With some small modification I was able to adjust the inner mirrors. It only helped slightly. The biggest help I found was to angle the monitors towards each other. That made them lineup straighter in the viewer. Before I did that each each monitor appeared to be facing away from the other when looking through the jpsVisor. Even with all the tweaks I was only able to view about 1' closer than before. Also the mirrors in the viewer are not perfect. They are slightly blurry making it difficult to read text especially near the edges of the screen. The 3D effect is quite good. There is no ghosting or darkening. Overall I can't see myself playing games with the jpsVisor. Its difficult to adjust it optimally because all the mirrors move independently after modding it. Additionally I need to move my monitors each time I want to play. I took a chance but the jpsVisor didn't workout for me. It does however work well for JPS images which it was originally intended for.

Hope this helps anyone who was wondering about the jpsVisor.

So, something designed with that purpose could work in your opinion?
If it can be used in the same way that shutterglasses it could be a stereo 3D solution to take into account for its lack of ghosting, flickering, dimming and type of display independence.

Maybe the manufacturer could be told about this.

Cool that you tried the jpsvisor but its a shame it wasnt quite perfect. I have ordered some prisms from ebay that will be interesting to try. I dont think they will work very well for the reasons already posted (color bending, keystoning) but its worth a shot because they should be large enough for a decent size screens.

Here is the link - http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... :IT&ih=001

I think this is an interesting topic, but I don't realy know, how you intended to use the prism's...

Only one (or one per eye) can't be the solution, if I remember right. They should work similar to the mirrors used before, if I'm right...

Do you want to build something similar as shown in picture 2 (again)?
Why don't you build the mirrores used there in a head mounted device (HMD?)

If this works well, it might become the new low-budget-gaming Rig - depending on the price of the driver

The prisms will bend the light much the same as 2 mirrors per eye will but have some spreading of the spectrum. The ones i ordered are recommended in the add as stereo viewers. The Pokescope pictured above uses prisms this way but is too small for a large field of view.

The down side of this whole method is the cost for 2 monitors, space to place them, and not being as good as a single large monitor for normal 2d apps like movies although it will be in dual view for the desktop. And of course that the stereo image is only the size of one monitor. Doing this with 2 big monitors would be great if you could afford it.

I was thinking about this too! what about FIBER OPTICS?

wuhlei wrote:I was thinking about this too! what about FIBER OPTICS?

2-3 years ago I was obsessed with that, initially a monoscopic hmd using a normal monitor, fiber optics and lenses. I was told that there are products already using that solution. I don't remember well how are they called, something like guided light hmd or something.
You need a bundle of fibers to transmit an image through them. That's how endoscopes work. I found out to be a very expensive solutioin in my preliminary research... I usen't to pass from that phase

LCountach wrote:I just received the jpsVisor and tested it in conjunction with the iZ3D drivers in HMD/Dual Screen Mode. It works well but only at 4' away from my 21" CRTs. It simply doesn't have enough adjustment to view any closer. It is intended to be used with a single monitor and is designed only for that adjustment range. A small tab on the top is connected to arms that rotate the two outer mirror's angles. I decided the device is useless for my needs. I then decided to break the tab thus freeing the outer mirrors for greater rotation. This worked only slightly. Unfortunately the two inner mirrors also need to be adjusted and they are locked into place. the device is well glued together. Some serious Breaking/Modification is needed to use it to game with two monitors. On the upside you don't need to remain perfectly still to view. Similar to shutter glasses you just need to stay centered with whatever you are viewing. You could easily use them as a pair of glasses. They are not very heavy. I plan on doing some more Modding to see if I can get them working at gaming distance.

I am designing a new jpsVisor model with wider view angle, wider convergence angle and adjustable interocular distance.

Your input gratly apriesiated.

Sincerely,

Mathew Orman

LCountach wrote:I like this idea. The jpsVisor can be had for just $30. I do believe they will need to be immobilized similar to the ScreenScope. The ScreenScope is $100 for the handheld and $200 for the viewer & mounting system. Asking a little too much money for what you get if you ask me.

I do have a pair of 21" CRTs I bought used for super cheap. The Used Computers store even tried to give me a small 15" CRT. LCDs have taken over and I hate them! Sure their light weight and take up less space but they also have HUGE drawbacks! Some Major ones being Inconsistent brightness across the screen, Locked at Native Resolution for proper viewing, and Low Refresh Rates. I got the two Compaq P1220 CRTs for only $100 each. I plan on buying the jpsVisor and experimenting with iZ3D HMD driver. I would still prefer my shutter glasses for simplicity Nvidia doesn't like to keep customers or at least keep them informed.

The major problem with LCD technology is the lack of full color capabilities.
Also the color changes with the view angle.

The Sony's laser display technology will be the ultimate choice for professional users.

For new CRT is the only full color display for stereoscopic applications.

DLP has full color but due to RGB sequential mode it is not useful for LCD shatter viewing method.
I just bout one with 16:9 native mode and using it with jpsVisor is almost as good as the CRT setup.
The differences are in contrast ration and resolution. DLP has higher the first one and lower the second.

Can't wait for Laser Monitors...

Sincerely,

Mathew Orman

ps. I am working on a new invention of mine and that is the ultimate 3d display for mufti viewer audience and auto stereo and true volumetric capabilities including non transparent pixels. My first prototype is based on DMD (Digital Mirror Device) from TI

I think that the simplest device for two monitor setups would be two achromatic prisms which both gives undistorted image and wide view angle. Liquid filed prisms would add some convergence adjustment.

See if I could make one with off the shelf materials...

Sincerely,

Mathew Orman

The problem for a headmounted device would be the head-movement, right?
How much of a problem would it be?

Your link does not work, but thanks for working on the project and welcome to the forum

LukePC1 wrote:The problem for a headmounted device would be the head-movement, right?
How much of a problem would it be?

Your link does not work, but thanks for working on the project and welcome to the forum

With prisms like with LCD glasses there is a comfortable volume for head movement.

Sincerely,

Mathew Orman

LukePC1 wrote:The problem for a headmounted device would be the head-movement, right?
How much of a problem would it be?

Your link does not work, but thanks for working on the project and welcome to the forum

Head movement will not affect this at all. It will be exactly the same as moving your head while looking at a single screen normaly. If on the other hand you only use a single mirror mounted on one eye and have one screen at a right angel using a reversed image in the driver it would go nuts if you moved your head.

Octa or anyone, anymore update on this? I have 2 LCD monitors. Octa you say head movement would be bad if you used 1 mirror, what if you used 2 mirrors but put the monitors behind you like in the picture? Would head movement be as bad?

I dont think the position of the monitors will be the problem. I think you will need 2 reflector mirrors per eye too correct the view. Its not just that with one mirror the image will be reversed, that can be corrected with drivers. The issue will be when you move your head around. With one mirror it will be counter intuitive and the view will go the wrong way with head movement. With 2 mirrors head movement should seem more natural as you move your head to look around the screen.

I guess I am still not understanding. If you have 1 mirror per eye, but put the monitors behind you, why would you need 2 reflector mirrors? Can't you just put the left eye monitor behind your right shoulder, and the right eye monitor behind your left shoulder, so when they reflect off the mirror, you get the correct image to each eye? Using 1 mirror per eye is better than 2 per eye no? More FOV and less weight on your head?

I have 2 small mirrors, I will test this in the next few days.

Where could I find 2 small dome mirrors a little bigger than the eye, all the mirrors I have are flat, but 2 small dome mirrors and maybe we could have wide FOV with "fisheye" quake.

Now im getting really confused You still need to give the right image to the right eye and left to the left regardless of mirror or monitor configuration. If you are going the route of head mounted mirrors you pretty much HAVE to use 2 per eye. It will only work with one mirror per eye as long as you keep your head dead still.

Try this- Sit or stand holding a mirror in front of an eye with the inner edge touching your nose. Have it angled so you can seen an objet (monitor, painting etc) in the centre. With the mirror anchored in position against your head like it is head mounted, look at the object you are focusing on. Now imagine your want to look to the left of the object, turn your head slightly to the left.... your view goes the opposite direction to what you expected.

If you do this using 2 mirrors to reflect the image of a monitor in front of you it will be natural, just like looking around through a binocular. They have the same double reflected image. The reason they do this (i think) is to increase the separation of your eye to help give more depth to distant objects.

In our method we use the double mirrors to change the line of sight so your eye can look forward in a natural position at an offset object.

I think it is important also to have the monitors in front and not at the sides or behind so when you move your head up and down you dont get an odd result.

Hi Guys, I just registered, but I have been here from time to time for years.
My Setup
2 CRT: 19" und 21" (reduced to 19" area), Geforce6800, WinXP, ForceWare 91.31!!!
My Experience
Elsa Shutter Since 2002 (still running )
extensive crosseyed viewing with selfmade pictures/sidebyside IZ3D
Seen Nvidia Vision in stores

So far
I had the same idea as Okta(first post second picture) 1 year ago, but kind off lost track of it. I used DualVGA(old Nvidia driver) output.I held a good Prism infront of my right eye pressed against my nose.I held a cheap bathroom-mirroir against my right temple.
It worked! Bright, ghost free image.More comfortable in eye-muscles than crosseyed. Only the Vibration threw my view off from time to time.
Maybe I should add that I'm pretty trainined in fusing images through extensive crosseyed viweing which is helping here to compensate non-perfect alignment.

Plan
I have some prisms laying around, but their color separation is worse than in mirrors. So in will just cut an old big mirror with a diamond and hopefully I can snap it apart at the line I scratched.
For the Protype I will use my meccano set, so I can adjust and optimise the angles.
Later I want to build a lightweight modell (wood?) Similar to this hyperscope:
http://www.grand-illusions.com/acatalog/Hyperscope.html

I have high expectations. My only concern might be the weight. Comfortable cushining should be no problem.
I would love to hear your imput.

Heya Think, check this item out, it may be what your after http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... :MEWAX:VRI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Prototype1 is ready
See Pictures below.
The construction got a bit bigger than expected, but it will do as a proof of concept. I added a handle for testing, I only tried shortly and unsuccesfully to attach it to a head light. One screw is not tight, so I can adjust the angles.
I first tested it out in reality and the hyperscopic effect is quite nice. Increased depth perception in real life is something you guys should try.

Dual CRT Setup
I adjusted the mirrors so when looking straight at my left 19" CRT, my right eye was seeing the right 21" CRT in the mirrors.
I first had to overcome the additional difficulty of matching the screen sizes - unnecessary with 2 identical displays. I used a monitor test picture.
Findings
-allowed movements: any translation or the rotation around horizontal axis(looking sideways) will change nothing.
-movements changing alignment:
pitch(look up/down)-rotate screen
roll (lean left/right)-move screen up/down
The last to movements can easily be avoided, you can freely change the sitting position as long as you keep your head level. They can also be used to compensate for nonperfect mirror alignment - I think this was only neccesary with my loose screwed prototype1.

3D game test
I chose Flatout - a racing game I could control with one hand, the other one was holding the construction.
The effect is really nice: bright clear pictures as expected, only this time steady, as the mirrors were fixed to eachother.
I played for like 30min with no ill effect. I can safely that I prefer the picture over my shutter glasses.And there is no eyestrain as with extreme crosseyed viewing (only handstrain with my prototpe ).
When you pitch your head the images seperate, so you just pitch back, which happens quite naturally.

issues
Ghosting. As you can see in the last picture (upper half), there is some ghosting. Less than with shutter glasses and closer to the origin. There are 4 ghosts: 2 bright ones seen in the picture. Horizontally displaced by maybe 3mm. 2 dim lines another 3mm away.
This ghosting can be avoided. It is caused by two reflections: one intended at the metallic layer, one unintended at the glass surface.
There are 2 Solutions:
-using prisms. All my prisms are ghost free, but for a good field of view (not necessary for this setup), one has to use bigger prisms which will become heavy.
-using first surface mirrors (aka front surface mirror). It seems there is a cheap DIY way:http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.ph ... opic=21137

Anyway it is quite promising. So promising that I am going to buy a ATI graphics card. Before I wanted to buy a inferior nvidia, just to keep all possibilities (more zalman support, 3D Vision) open.
The next steps will be either buying a ready made device (such as in Okta's link above) or building an improved version with front surface mirrors, either DIY or I will ask at my nanooptic department if they have mirrors to spare.

That looks like a really cool project you got there. I wish you the best of luck on finishing it.

Also, where did you get those metal parts (or what are they called)? I might need something similar for an HMD I want to build.

Nice work Think thats for pics. I was going to ask the same thing as Cyber, is that meccano?

Cool link about making the FS mirror i didnt know that, brilliant.

Hi.Thx for your appreciation.
Yes I did use an old meccano building set. I did to play with it as a kid for hundreds of hours. It kind of like lego technics - but more sturdy and stable, but like 5 times slower to build.
I am going snowboarding next week, so an updated is at least 2 weeks away.

Hi, you have not posted any update for a very long time! Have you had any further progress with this cool project? We're excited to know!