Razer Hydra: Dual 6DOF Motion-Controller

[WiredEarp]

Hey Machine, I'm out the eastern suburbs of Auckland. Whereabouts are you based?
Good to hear you're buying a Hydra as well, it will be interesting to see what uptake the Hydra has besides VR enthusiasts! I really hope it does well. Mine was bought from Playtech, hoping to have it by Wednesday. Id really like it to try it as a head tracker, so I'll try to hook it up to a Freetrack interface and use it for my flight sims. I like my TrackIR4, but its just too annoying, often i just can't turn/move my head fully into the right position, or it 'sticks' on a certain point of the turn, etc...

[WiredEarp]

I received my Hydra yesterday and had a brief play with it. It seems to have a lot of potential. The design is nice, although the buttons and joystick are not really in a super comfortable position for me to press - the joystick I can push forward and sideways but my thumb doesn't naturally sit on top of it, so its a bit of a pain if I want to go backwards. The hardware seems to be high quality, and the accuracy is really great. I played a level of Portal 2, and was surprised at how easy it was to pick up playing with the Hydra. I wouldn't want to use it for deathmatch, but it was a fun and immersive addition to the game.

I do have a few questions I'd like to ask the other Hydra owners:

1) my 'base unit' feels like there is something loose inside. If i tilt it back and forwards, I feel the balance shifting inside (I dont hear anything rattling however). Is this normal?

2) The Hydra does not seem to be compatible with the program 'Everything' from http://www.voidtools.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I don't know if anyone else uses it, but this program is an awesome, tiny, instant file search program that lets you search your files (way better than the built in Windows one). The Hydra will not move the mouse when it is over the 'Everything' window at all. After closing 'everything', the Hydra works correctly again. I suspect its probably the keystroke trapping of Everything, and Hydra, that is causing the problem. Might be a windows hook conflict or similar...

3) This morning, when I tried to give it a quick test before work, it no longer was working as a mouse etc, until I unplugged the USB and replugged it. Has anyone else had this problem?

I downloaded the SDK for the Hydra that is available on Steam and noticed some interesting things when reading through it. One, they have designed the software interfaces to support up to 4 Hydras simultaneously. However, they also say that each Hydra must be on a separate 'magnetic frequency' - and all Hydras are currently just the one frequency, so it doesn't look like it will be possible to run two together YET. Also in the SDK, they talk about the wireless dev version, so hopefully one day soon there will be a wireless version (it REALLY would be be improved by wireless).
One thing that jumped out at me in the SDK is that there is a limitation on the tracking tech Razer are using, that means the Hydra actually returns TWO positions instead of one. It cannot actually tell which side of the base unit the controller is on (it returns values for both the front and back sides), so when you first calibrate it by pointing it at the Hydra and pulling the trigger, it chooses that as the correct position. In all subsequent position changes, it determines which of the two locations is correct by simply picking the one closest to the last known good position. This is fine for most sit down uses, but I can imagine this could cause problems with stand up VR usage. If you placed the base unit on the ground, and walked over it, I can imagine it could possibly pick the wrong location, since you have just effectively swapped sides of the base unit. However, I'm sure this is only the first version and I can imagine other ways to resolve the problem in future (multiple base stations, broadcasting IR from one side of the base unit for the controller to detect, etc).

All in all though, it seems to be a really great addition to my homebrew VR setup. I especially think it will have potential if I can lighten it and mount one on my P5 glove - then I could use my glove to move my mouse cursor and click buttons in FSX etc.

[cybereality]

Cool man, glad you're happy with it. I do not notice any shifting of weight in my base station. It seems pretty solid to me. But if its working I would not worry about it. I haven't had any compatibility issues but I only used it with Chrome and navigating Windows a little. The mouse emulation mode is triggered by pressing a button (I think the 3 button, it says in the manual I think). You may have pressed this by accident and turned off the mouse.

[WiredEarp]

Yeah, its fun! . Thanks for the info re the weight shift etc - I'll just leave it since its working fine now. I don't think it was the button thing that caused it to stop (I figured out that button pretty quick, although its different to the ratchet button which seems to do a similar thing just with the motion driver stuff) but it worked fine this morning, so it might have just been the Everything incompatibility causing it to break (I didn't restart it after closing Everything).

I tried it with L4D2 last night and it was ok. It would definitely be improved however if there was a '1:1' mod for L4D2, so i'd have to point the gun behind me to aim backwards. I'd really like to get accurate 1:1 aiming going with some games at some point, rather than just mouse emulation. Hopefully some new games will support the Hydra directly.

[cybereality]

Yeah, the mouse emulation is alright but could be better. I've seen on the Sixense forums ( http://sixense.com/forum/phpBB3/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) some people have made custom configs for certain games, it might be worth a look. At least with Portal 2, though, the control is spot on.

[WiredEarp]

Yep, I had fun playing with it in Portal 2. Unfortunately, one of the buttons on one of the controllers has broken (stuck down) which sucks, as it means I need to return it for a replacement ;-(

My next focus will be on finding a half life 2 / L4D mod or modding instructions for directly changing the view direction - then I can use GlovePIE or my own code to make it aim absolutely (ie, when I aim it behind me, i want it to change my view direction to behind me). This will hopefully let me play L4D etc while looking around. To get past the loss of realism to do with having the gun sticking out the centre of your view, I intend to use a paintball gun stock I have lying around, and mount one of the Hydra controllers to it. This way, it will feel more real to have a gun pointing down your view - kind of like playing with the gun always stuck to your shoulder and looking down the sites, SWAT style

I'm currently wondering if any of the wiimote mods for HL2 etc support this type of aiming, or if its just relative type aiming, like the Hydra currently uses for L4D...

Oh, whats the 'rachet' thing on Portal 2 BTW? Sometimes it pops up saying 'rachet' and with a diagram showing to press one of the buttons and twist your controller left + right. I can't seem to get it to do anything. I assume its to allow you to reset your hand positions etc, but it never seems to work for me?

[cybereality]

Racheting is like picking up your mouse. It allows you to physically re-center the Hydra without any in-game motion. Not needed so much with Portal 2, but absolutely needed on other games like L4D or HL2.

[WiredEarp]

I've definitely gotten ratcheting working in L4D (I think it was using one of the 1234 buttons). However, i'm sure when it flashes 'ratcheting' in Portal 2, its flashing a bumper button? Thats the bit I can't understand - especially since none of any of the buttons seem to ratchet in Portal 2 (not that I could see why you would want it to in Portal 2 anyway?).

I'm taking mine back this week and getting it swapped, so hopefully all my buttons will work again. Will have another play after that. Despite the faulty button, the hardware seems very good quality, even the weight is just right, with a solid feel while still being lightweight. I'd definitely buy a wireless version...

[cybereality]

Now that you mention it, I have seen that icon in Portal 2 and I'm not sure what it means.

[mAchiNE]

FYI In the Razer Hydra configurator there is a page for each supported game with the button/gesture layout for the Hydra

I got My Hydra a few weeks ago but have not had a real chance to use it yet, I did try it on COD Black Ops for a bit at a LAN but learning curb was too steep to be good in MP within a hour or so so I went back to keyboard and mouse. I will try out Portal 2 soon and let you know my thoughts, but so far I like it just need to spend more time with it to get used to it, I think with 1:1 movement with a HMD it will feel a lot more intuitive.

Hey Machine, I'm out the eastern suburbs of Auckland. Whereabouts are you based?
Good to hear you're buying a Hydra as well, it will be interesting to see what uptake the Hydra has besides VR enthusiasts! I really hope it does well. Mine was bought from Playtech, hoping to have it by Wednesday. Id really like it to try it as a head tracker, so I'll try to hook it up to a Freetrack interface and use it for my flight sims. I like my TrackIR4, but its just too annoying, often i just can't turn/move my head fully into the right position, or it 'sticks' on a certain point of the turn, etc...

I am based in the west side of central auckland atm, based on what the guy at Computer Lounge said there is not much uptake of this product here, I also think using it for headtracking on the sony HMD will be nice especially if we can get one controller for aiming and one for head tracking. I really hopr Battlefield 3 has seperate head tracking support! but i won't hold my breath

[WiredEarp]

I wish most games had separate head tracking support! Only Arma seems to support it currently. I'm wondering if anyone has written a mod for HL2/Source etc that will allow it with any of those games, or allow absolute aiming (perhaps someone has already done something like what I want for the wiimote etc). Otherwise, I'll need to mod/hack some games soon ;-(. I'm happy enough without separate head tracking, but absolute aiming is a must for me...

I got my Hydra fixed (got another copy of Portal 2 for free as well) and played a level or two more of Portal 2. Its quite fun and very intuitive (got a friend to play for the first time and she picked it up pretty quick).

[cybereality]

I actually have aspirations of making a driver that will allow full VR style control for FPS games. I don't want to get your hopes up too high, because there is so much I'd love to do and I never seem to find the time. But it is on my radar. Currently I am working on a demo, sort of like a proof of concept, for next generation VR interactivity. This is going to use the Hydra and the Wrap 1200VR. If that goes well (or if I finish it) maybe I can look into hacking that sort of control into retail games like HL2.

[WiredEarp]

Sounds interesting! I sometimes think about creating a homebrew environment, choosing an engine is the tricky part (dont want to go down the 'do it all using OpenGL or DirectX' path, as i've been there before. Ended up with collision detection, missiles, aircraft, and sound effects, before I realised that there was just so much more I wanted to do that it would have taken me a long long time.

My focus currently is on leveraging existing apps and games. I've spent a bit of time attempting to figure out the memory values for Comanche 4 (really awesome in 3D), as I was thinking I could just use some memory poking code to push the variables for the hydra/head tracker to replace the current mouse movement (this is the only stumbling block to a really good 3D arcade flight sim experience). Unfortunately, I didn't have much luck - and am a bit hamstrung by the fact I have no idea what format these variables will be in (floating point? integers? longs?).

Haven't looked into using a mod to do the same thing, yet. Just like you, I have way too many ideas and projects, finding the time to finish them is the issue ;-/

[Fredz]

My focus currently is on leveraging existing apps and games. I've spent a bit of time attempting to figure out the memory values for Comanche 4 (really awesome in 3D), as I was thinking I could just use some memory poking code to push the variables for the hydra/head tracker to replace the current mouse movement (this is the only stumbling block to a really good 3D arcade flight sim experience). Unfortunately, I didn't have much luck - and am a bit hamstrung by the fact I have no idea what format these variables will be in (floating point? integers? longs?).

Should be easier to first try with with open source flight sims like the ones presented on this page if it's not already the case : http://freegamer.blogspot.com/2007/04/o ... ombat.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It may not be the kind of games you're after,but it may help you understand how the commands are implemented in these types of games. And perhaps help you to do that with closed source games in the future.

[WiredEarp]

Cheers, some of those look interesting. Will check them out when i get a moment, as I imagine it will be pretty easy for me to modify open source stuff compared to hacking out the variables. I might also use one as a testbed for hacking out the variables on an version where I may not be fighting copy protection etc. Some of them sounded like combat games and im still looking for a fun multiplayer combat flying game.

Really however, I need to hack some modern and not so modern games to get the full effect from my VR system, my idea of which always involves having fun first and foremost (anyone see lawnmower man in the movies back in the day?).

Basically, I'm going to assume that Comanche 4 is either using Euler angles(could be a variety of possible types and formats such as radians, degrees, max byte size, etc) and xyz coordinates (which can actually even be in different units to the angles), or storing the view angles and translation coords in a matrix format (in which case the view and translation information will be all the same unit types). So any hints towards how its engine works would help.

If I can find the locations the view variables in C4, then everything else falls into place. I've already sorted out my interfaces etc with PPJoy + PPJoyJoy so I can use my foot pedals, a joystick and a cyclic (still gotta build the cyclic) together, so it works great for keyboard-less, great 3D gameplay (with semi realistic controls) using the mouse emulation. It just loses track , and I end up looking at the floor after a while ;(

[cybereality]

Have you tried using Cheat Engine? http://www.cheatengine.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[lllJameslll]

I have been considering this as an option for my planned sony/zeiss Battlefield 3 vr setup.

I am thinking of placing the hub in the center of a raised circular platform which I could then stand on and rotate over the top of.

My question is, what is the range that the controllers can opperate from the hub? will they work if the hub is below your feet?

@ mAchiNE Just to let you know I noticed in a BF3 in game trailer a player looks around when flying one of the jet fighters so head tracking could be presumably used for this atleast, there is hope

[cybereality]

The tracking starts to get pretty jittery after 3 feet (though it still does work somewhat). So I don't think placing it on the floor would work. It is designed to be on a desk in front of you or slightly to the side.

[lllJameslll]

Thanks for the info cybereality I had litrely just bought it from amazon when I checked back and found your comment so I cancelled my order as they wont work how I would want them to. I really want somthing to work as a 360 deg method of aiming and I just cant see how I can achive this if their range is so limited. Its a real shame as Im unaware of anything else that could do what they do for the price they are.

Does any of the tech guys know if a stronger magnetic field with the same frequency is something that could be generated with out a huge outlay and a phd in electronics?

[WiredEarp]

I've posted earlier in this thread about a limitation of the Hydra (to do with not being able to tell which side of the base it is on) which would probably prevent putting it in the center anyway. I think it will only work correctly (without some sort of additional calibration system) with it mounted on one side of you.

I have wondered about whether it would be possible to mount the Hydra base on a person, and then use the 2 controllers (stationary) as points to measure your rotation and orientation changes etc. But I believe the limitation will prevent that as well.

How about this? Mount the tracker on the ceiling, facing the ground, directly above the operators head. The VR wielder stands below in the 1.2m field emitted by the front of the tracker. This could allow the handset to stay within range more easily (assuming you dont need to track picking up stuff from the ground, etc).

Alternatively, we could mount the hydra tracker in a backpack. Use a Hydra controller then to track hand etc, and something else (optical, hybrid gyroscopic, ultrasonic, whatever) to track the x/y/z and rotation of the backpack. Basically for a sensor chain.

The Hydra does look like it has easily enough range to track a head, hands, or glove, without problems for sit down VR, but I always had a suspicion the range was going to be a problem for stand up, due to it needing coverage when the person was facing the other way (which can easily add a meter or more to the range) ;-(

[lllJameslll]

Hi WiredEarp I had read the whole thraed and had considered what you had said about the alignment but I was hoping that I could find a work around (ie offsetting from the center etc...) for it but finding out it has a 3ft limit before juddering started was very dissapointing to here for all my plans.

I was wondering is there a way to set the frequency of the feild emmitted\recived? They talk about being able to use up to 4 on the same computer so I figure you must be able to change the frequency.

If you can I heard the magnetic feild used is about the same as the one given off by the earth. This could mean if you can set the frequency to that of the earths magnetic field you may be able to use true north as your datum. This would not be practical when using a monitor hence the need for the orb but in a vr hmd setup this would work great. I dont know if the orb and earths field are similar as I suppose the way it gauges distance is the strength of the field to the controlers. With the earths magnetic field the change in distance moved would not be registered. I am not sure either how the up and down would work. I need to find out how exactly the orb works.

[cybereality]

Well even if you could make it wireless and solve the 3 foot range issue, it wouldn't matter since the tracking doesn't work 360 degrees. It can only track around 270 degrees. Once you turn all the way around (facing your back) then it gets wonky. This is perfectly fine for sit-down gaming (desktop VR, etc.). Not really any use for full 360 degrees VR. Right now I think the best option (for full freedom) may be using a Nintendo Wiimote with Motion+. I haven't tried it myself, but the demos I've seen look promising. At least there is good software support, for example with GlovePIE.

[WiredEarp]

Cyber, isn't that just a range limitation? Pretty sure I can turn my handset through 360 and it detects it fine. Isn't it only when you move it behind your body (out of range) it gets a bit stroby? I'll have to test mine out tonight once im home, because if it doesn't support 360 @ any range, then only going to be of average use for me (still going to be great as a wireless mouse/hand tracker for sit down stuff).

I've got a wiimote + motionPlus, but Hydra is much more accurate etc. However, if you want large range of motion, its probably the best solution for now.

@James, they do not currently support other frequencies, thats a planned expansion.

I'm pretty sure its a pulsed magnetic field, which is why it is able to track things. It won't work without the magnetic emitter, which is what it bases all its tracking off.

What you are talking about could be accomplished with a digital compass and a inclinometer, however, it will be laggy (compasses are), and not provide XYZ, just rotation around xyz.

My idea for putting the emitter in a backpack, then tracking the backpack optically could work if you wanted a setup where you could walk around a decent sized area. Or even if you were limited

[lllJameslll]

Im glad I didnt get the Hydra then, thanks for the info guys.

I contacted a company called Trivisio about their Colibri - Inertial Motion Tracker as it looked interesting but it turned out to be £750 for the wired version and £1200 for the wireless which is way out my price range especially when its only a 9 axis Inertial Measurement Unit.

I think we could do with building a controller/head tracker from a IMU with 9 degrees of freedom ourselfs. I am going to start a new thread and see if people are up for trying. I have limited experience especially in programming but if people are keen anyone that wants one and has some skills could all pitch in and work together on it.

I think I have found an IMU from sparkfun that is accessable for pretty much anyone as they have distributors all over the globe. It costs around $120 in the US and about £80 in the UK and can have bluetooth and a battery easily added to it. Ill post a link to the thread once Iv wrote it.

Here is the link to the new thread if your interested

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13771" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[WiredEarp]

@ CyberReality - I played with my Hydra and it tracks through 360 degrees of rotation of the controller. Mine actually tracks if i move it behind me and point behind me, but it can get a bit juddery if i stretch my arm out fully. This was testing with that SDK sample app.

[cybereality]

Yeah, now that I think about it, it does track 360 degrees. Its just when I tried it standing up, I probably went out of range when I turned around.

[WiredEarp]

Some Hydra info re 360 control that i've figured out:

1) The Hydra does a great job of tracking 360, but you need to go into the Hydra driver, and change it from the default of 'Gamepad' to 'Motion Controller' to do this, even if the game has a Hydra driver already.

2) The 'gestures' that you can use in the drivers seem to be related to the base position. Which means, that many of the 'tilt' gestures (such as the left and right roll ones) are useless in a 360 environment. I assume the same problem will occur with most of the 'velocity' gestures - I assume that they are thinking a 'forward' velocity will be one towards the base.

This means that the wiimote guns might be better in terms of general use than the Hydra ones, if gestures are important to you. I'm thinking it should be possible to write new drivers that will support better gestures for the Hydra, by figuring out that the movement was 'forward' from the USER, not the base - whether Razer does this at some point, or we have to do it ourselves, is the question however. It would require calibration of the users position (could be done by having him turn in a circle).

[cybereality]

I also discovered the jitter I was seeing was actually interference from the Asus 23" 3D monitor I got recently. Seems other people have the same issue, it goes away if you turn the monitor off. Weird.

[WiredEarp]

Good to know!

I found this link today about someone who is attempting to build an open source (not windows only) driver for the Razer Hydra, with VRPN support.

https://github.com/rpavlik/razer-hydra-hid-protocol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

also this one about someone building a directinput joystick wrapper for the Hydra, in case this is of use to anyone.

https://github.com/rpavlik/razer-hydra-hid-protocol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mAchiNE]

thats good to hear there might be opensource support, it would be awesome if glovepie had support for the Hydra

[WiredEarp]

I've been a bit disappointed with the Hydra/Sixense support, there doesn't seem to be much life anywhere in terms of development that I have noticed, and the forums are pretty basic, dead and not really informative. Add the fact they still haven't released a better customization tool, and they are starting to look pretty bad. Shame, because the hardware seems pretty damn good.

I've decided I'm going to do it. I'm going to open my Hydras up, and (probably irreversibly) take them apart in an attempt to miniaturize them. One is destined to be made into a removable module, that I intend to velcro or otherwise mount onto either my HMD or my P5 Glove, and the other will be permanently mounted in my new VRGun (which doesn't exist yet, but looks like it will incorporate a toy or airsoft 2 grip rifle (I prefer to hold a rifle type gun than a pistol type one personally, just for feel - and game realism, since most of the time in games you will be holding rifles).

I'll probably just open up one of them for the P5 glove/HMD first, so I'll post up some pics and my experience once I actually do it.

[Johnny-Mnemonic]

I'll probably just open up one of them for the P5 glove/HMD first, so I'll post up some pics and my experience once I actually do it.

Looking forward to it. Should be awesome uprade to P5.

[mAchiNE]

Hmmm, this idea of putting one into an airsoft rifle is interesting, I am currently in the process of building a game controller from an airsoft gun and a Wiimote, the accuracy of the hydra is very tempting but the wireless if the wiimote has won out for me on this build, will be interested to see what you come up with.

Edit: although I might build a wired version from the Hydra as well if open source allows for customization of buttons, will allow for a much more powerful recoil device if it is wired too which is a plus although will need to be based on compressed air (solenoids will probably mess with the hydra because they are basically electromagnets)

[cybereality]

I have thought about trying to revive the P5 glove somehow. I mean, the bend sensors in the glove work great, it was just the position and rotation values that sucked big ones. But if you combine that with a decent tracker, maybe it would work. I do really long for a good data glove...

[WiredEarp]

Just a quick note that I took my Hydra apart successfully and have proven that it will work as a bare circuit board.

The 'board' inside is quite long and thin, which might make finding a good mounting point a bit tricky, but generally I think its looking quite promising, and also there could be the potential to shrink things down by cutting the board in the centre and wiring wires to the traces, so you could potentially fold it and halve the size.

Inside, there is a round, steel disc that adds significant weight and I believe exists only for the purpose of being magnetically sensed by the base, to recalibrate the Hydra to the correct 'side'.

I can't find my camera sync cable atm so can't post pics, but will post a full teardown as soon as I find it. My next task will be to write something that will monitor the P5 finger positions, and emulate a Hydra button press, to activate/deactivate the cursor movement by bending a finger as in the original P5 implementation.

[cadcoke5]

Be careful about cutting apart a circuit board that is used for radio frequency stuff. Minor things affect inductance, capacitance, and coupling. Also, that metal thing may just add weight, but metal stuff has an influence on things in a RF circuit.

Joe Dunfee

[mAchiNE]

Just a thought if the Hydra circuit is to big to fit into the P5 Glove, rather than hacking the Hydra Circuit board onto the P5 Glove you could build a custom glove for the Hydra using a large glove, kinda like the Nintendo power glove, and the long Circuit board could mount onto the glove on your forearm. Just add 4 bend sensors to replace the 2 axis of the analogue stick and the 5th finger can just get a non analogue bend sensor that triggers one of the buttons on the hydra.

[WiredEarp]

@ cadcoke5: thats actually what i'm worried about, if this is some sort of 'tuned circuit' or something like that.
Due to that, I think i'll just use it as one unit for now and figure out a way to mount it.

One slightly annoying thing about taking the Hydra apart, is that you need to desolder a wire to be able to remove the board from the handle.

[WiredEarp]

@ Machine: Ok idea using a bigger glove. I might just mount it for the moment to the back of the P5, and have it poking back towards/over my wrist. That hopefully will work ok. If not, I might look into making more of a 'gauntlet'.

I don't really want to play with the P5 wiring, so I think I'll keep the bend sensing etc separate for now, and will see if I can use some custom software to transform it to Hydra button presses.

[WiredEarp]

Ok, i've figured out that the hydra unit is small and light enough to mount on a HMD or glove without needing to cut traces etc. Its actually extremely lightweight once you take it out of the handset.

I currently am stuck on another point. The unit connects to the button unit using a fragile, 8 connector clamp ribbon cable. If this cable is disconnected, the unit will not work. This is a pain as the button unit weighs more than the sensor part, and is bulky. To really use it, I need to figure out how to build my own button unit to connect to this cable. The tricky part is that the button unit has 6 buttons, a 2 axis stick, a stick button, and a pressure sensitive button. There are only 8 connectors in the cable.

I'm guessing this means that either all the buttons and sticks are ganged together somehow, or that the buttons are sent via wires, and the sticks/pressure sensitive button via serial somehow. Until I know this wiring (having trouble finding my multimeter atm ;'( ) I can't do much, unless I want to mount the entire button unit to the glove as well (might be a plan just for now, actually).