Need guidance deciding what hardware to buy - 3D movies

[Thulinma]

Hello all,

First of all, my apologies if this is not the correct board for this question - my question covers multiple areas and I thought this would be the most appropriate place for it.
I am, like many people, trying to watch 3D movies in the comfort of my own home.
Unfortunately, I have somewhat of a "rare" setup, and I am having trouble finding information.
Seeing as the most knowledgable of the 3D world seem to be hanging around this forum, I thought I'd ask for help here

First, let me list my setup as of right now:

- A Mandriva Linux desktop computer, with as of right now, no videocard (using the build-in GPU functionality of the Intel Pentium G6950 it runs on).
- An Acer H5360 DLP Projector (120Hz, compatible with "DLP-3D" and "NVidia 3D"), hooked up over VGA
- A pair of DLP-link glasses
- Several 3D movies, in left-right-half format

Also, let me list what I have found out so far:

- The projector's "3D mode" will activate whenever I select it in the projector menu, no matter what input it is getting
- The DLP link glasses also always activate and sync properly in this setting (yay!)
- The projector expects the input in a frame-sequential manner.

This last part is an issue - I have not found a way to play my movies in this format.
There is a linux-compatible stereo player available - Bino ( http://www.nongnu.org/bino/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) which I managed to compile and run just fine, and it can read my movies just fine. Output in anaglyph mode for example, works perfectly.
However, I obviously want frame sequential. There is a mode that will output to quad buffered OpenGL stereo. Of course my non-existant GPU does not support quad buffered stereo, but Nvidia Quadro cards do.

So, I have been considering getting a Quadro card. Specifically, I have my eye on the Quadro FX 380.

I checked, and the linux driver for quadro cards will indeed support quad buffered OpenGL stereo. However, the readme of the latest driver ( http://us.download.nvidia.com/XFree86/L ... tions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) worries me.
As far as I can tell, the Quardo X 380 is a "G8xGL or higher GPU". This means mode 1 (DDC glasses) and 2 (blueline glasses) will not work - which I hopefully will not need.
The mode I seem to need is "Onboard DIN", listed as for "Displays with high refresh rate". Yet, the FX 380, being a budget model, has no DIN connector... Unsure whether this will work at all, I don't really want to buy the card and end up not being able to use it.

This is where my current knowledge and research ends, and I turn here for help.
My questions are basically:

Am I on the right track here? Should/will any of this work at all?
Will the FX 380 work in "Onboard DIN" mode, even without the connector? In other words - should I buy it?
Any other suggestions? Maybe a different stereo player? I tried the "genlock" method listed elsewhere on this forum, without much (okay, any) luck.

Any suggestions and/or direction would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance

[Fredz]

The least expensive Quadro model with an onboard Vesa Stereo connector that is compatible with 3D on Linux is at $1000 (FX3700), so you can already forget this option I think. It should be possible to use older Quadro GPUs without onboard VESA Stereo connectors, but you would need very old drivers since VGA DDC support has been removed in recent versions of the NVIDIA driver on Linux.

Another solution would be to use an application that supports software page flipping like sView (available on Linux) but you'll have occasional missed vertical retraces and eye inversions with it depending on the speed of video decoding on your machine.

The last software solution - that you already tried - would be Genlock which in theory should'nt produce eye inversions, but you'll need a NVIDIA GeForce 6XXX or 7XXX graphics card to make it work. You can still try to adapt the code for other GPUs but it's not trivial.

On the hardware side, the easier solution would be to buy an eDimensional box that connects in a VGA port and which is able to do synch doubling. I think you can also find schematics on the web to build one yourself.

Using this box you can set up an approx. 1280x1440 resolution at 60Hz on your system and use the ED-activator or the equivalent application written by mickeyjaw and available somewere on this forum. This box will convert the approx. 1280x1440@60Hz graphics mode into a 1280x720 mode at 120Hz, so you would only need to display an above-and-below video to make it work in 3D.

You'd still need to be careful when setting graphics modes to not burn the eDimensional box (limited to max 110kHz horizontal freq IIRC) and to not produce a dangerous mode for your projector. You would also need to find the exact height of the initial graphics mode to obtain a 720p mode after the synchronization box and to add some black lines between the two images in the video to make them perfectly aligned.

[Thulinma]

Okay, so if I understand correctly, cards without the DIN connector will not output a synchronized signal at all? Damn, I expected a little more from Nvidia Oh well.

The machine gets pretty nice framerates, so a software solution might be workable. Thanks for mentioning sView - I had no idea this software existed. They have have an RPM especially for my distribution, awesome! A quick test on my laptop already looks promising - I will try this on my real setup as soon as I get the chance

Ah, so genlock requires a 6XXX or 7XXX! So it might be a viable option to get one of these cards instead?

The eDimensional box sounds extremely interesting... I'll look into my options regarding this.

Thank you very much for the information so far, it's been more helpful than I hoped!

[Fredz]

Okay, so if I understand correctly, cards without the DIN connector will not output a synchronized signal at all? Damn, I expected a little more from Nvidia Oh well.

Some older Quadro cards could work without the VESA Stereo connector, but support was removed from the NVIDIA driver when they released 3D Vision. It was probably to push professionals to buy their 3D Vision kit instead of old VGA DDC glasses. As I said you could try with an older Quadro (that should be quite cheap now) and with an old driver (if they're still supported by your kernel). The added benefit would be to have quad buffer stereo support which has been implemented in some 3D games and applications.

Ah, so genlock requires a 6XXX or 7XXX! So it might be a viable option to get one of these cards instead?

It worked for me and mickeyjaw with these GPU families (correction : with 7XXX and 8XXX only). I didn't try with 6XXX yet but I guess it should also be compatible since it's the same core as 7XXX (NV40).

Some people couldn't make it to work with their config, but it's probably related to the use of newer GPUs (2XX) and/or 64 bits processors. But you won't take much risk by buying a 7XXX, they can be found for quite cheap now.

This solution is not plug-and-play though, you've got a module to compile, install and activate and a virtual screen to set up, there is no user-friendly interface to do that. I've posted another topic in this forum to explain how to use MPlayer to play 3D videos with it too.

The eDimensional box sounds extremely interesting... I'll look into my options regarding this.

You can buy an eDimensional kit for $69.95 on berezin, but it can be found for less on ebay, around $30-$40 from what I see. The XForce3D kit should also support the same sync-doubling mode (you'd need to ask them to be sure) and is a little bit cheaper when bought new ($49.95).

You should still verify that the max horizontal frequency won't be higher than 100-110kHz, I don't know what the value is for a 1280x1440 mode, I've only tried with 800x1200 for now (my DLP projector is only 800x600). Maybe people here have already tried higher resolutions like 720p. For 1400x1050 at 60Hz it's 64kHz, so since it's a comparable num of pixels than with 1280x1440 I think you should be pretty safe from the 100-110kHz limit.

You may also try the VIP 3D Gamer which works basically the same way as sync doubling but is more standardized, future proof and supports HDMI connections. It costs $199 but it can accept an HDMI 1.4 720p signal, so you'd be able to play games and 720p videos on a PS3 for example. I think you can also use it with a PC if you can output a 1280x1470 resolution. I'd say it's the most plug-and-play solution for now since you don't have to find the exact size of the black band between the two images (fixed at 30 pixels in this case).

Thank you very much for the information so far, it's been more helpful than I hoped!

You're welcome, always nice to see Linux users here.

I see that you have a pair of DLP-Link glasses, I guess you known it somewhat degrades the image. Because of the white flashes there is a shift in colorimetry, less contrast and less deep blacks. If you want the best image quality in 3D you may want to choose IR glasses, but then you'd need to find a way to activate them on Linux.

For example the eDimensional glasses can be made to work thanks to the ED-activator in sync doubling mode, but as nothing is perfect, the field of view will be a little bit diminished compared to more recent glasses. I don't know if newer IR glasses with higher FOVs (like the Ultra-Clear) can be made to work with the eDimensional emitter, that would be a good idea to test that.

[Thulinma]

Yeah, I tried to find an older Quadro at first, but none of the stores around here carry it anymore. I perhaps should have mentioned I live in The Netherlands, so some things are not quite as easy (or hard, for that matter) to get as they are in the US.

As for a solution that would not be very plug-and-play, well, if I wanted plug-and-play I would not be using Linux
Working with kernel modules and virtual screens are things I'm pretty used to - this machine only had a keyboard connected the first few minutes it was booted to get an installer with SSH support going so I could continue it from elsewhere So, I'm pretty sure I can handle all that. Oh, and mplayer is pretty much all I use - streaming videos over the home network using sshfs, hooked up to lirc for pausing and fast-forwarding without the need to grab a keyboard. This machine does run a 64-bit kernel though, so that could be problematic... but I'm quite familliar with C/C++ so nothing unmanagable I guess.

Since the native resolution of my projector is 720p, that is indeed what I'll be trying to run this setup at - but lower resolutions don't matter that much to me. I like the elegance of the extra device for the 3D effect, and how it puts less strain on the machine (which is nice because it is also a web, chat and database server - also it runs on only a 350W PSU, so not all GPU's would work in this thing without requiring upgrades)

Alright - I'll try and find an older Quadro on the local equivalent of ebay, perhaps I'll be lucky, and that does seem like the "nicest" way to do this. I do still intend to try the sView solution in a few hours, I'll post here how it goes after I try.

[Thulinma]

Alright - sView does not seem to work on my setup, it for some reason wants to connect to a jack server (which is not installed, only alsa, and I don't really want to change that...) and then segfaults. Maybe I will persue this option again later - but it looks like a hardware solution is really what I want/need.

So, my options are:
- An old Quadro card
- Genlock + Geforce 7/8 series card
- eDimensional-style converter passthrough

I still like the Quadro solution most - but unfortunately nothing that will cut it shows up even second-hand for less than 900 euros. Insane!
It looks like what I really "want" is a Quadro FX 350. Being the older chipset, even the latest drivers still support DDC stereo mode, and it only consumes 21W - absolutely perfect. It seems to be nearly impossible to find for sale anywhere though

Would a GeForce 8400 GS work, in theory, for the genlocking solution? I can pick those up for a very nice price here, would theoretically even be worth trying if unsure it would work. What is your general experience with this method? Watchable?

As for a converter device - I have been unable to find any clear information on what is available where and what it supports. VGA support and 120Hz output are a must for me, but on the resolution aspect I am willing to make sacrifices. I honestly am completely lost in this area. I am not afraid of soldering something myself, but I do want to know exactly what I'm getting into before I attempt this

My guess is the genlocking/geforce way is probably the most cost-effective for me right now...

[Fredz]

Alright - sView does not seem to work on my setup, it for some reason wants to connect to a jack server (which is not installed, only alsa, and I don't really want to change that...) and then segfaults.

Did you try with an older version ? I don't think I had jack on my machine when I tried it, and it worked. There are also probably command-line parameters that you could use to specify the audio config, that would be weird to force users on the use of a specific audio server.

I still like the Quadro solution most - but unfortunately nothing that will cut it shows up even second-hand for less than 900 euros. Insane!
It looks like what I really "want" is a Quadro FX 350. Being the older chipset, even the latest drivers still support DDC stereo mode, and it only consumes 21W - absolutely perfect. It seems to be nearly impossible to find for sale anywhere though

Here you can find a Quadro FX350 for $135 :
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000G2 ... n=xpcdepot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Would a GeForce 8400 GS work, in theory, for the genlocking solution? I can pick those up for a very nice price here, would theoretically even be worth trying if unsure it would work.

I think it should work with a 8400 GS, the added benefit if it's a PCI card is that is should be able to help decode some video files in hardware on the GPU. So if your CPU is a little too short for some high-res videos it could help.

What is your general experience with this method? Watchable?

Yes, it's very watchable, but I found it quite annoying to always have to remove parport modules, insert the genlock module, change to a virtual screen and activate the page flipping. If you have another monitor you also have to disconnect it to not have the IRQ triggered for each monitor, which is also pretty annoying.

As for a converter device - I have been unable to find any clear information on what is available where and what it supports. VGA support and 120Hz output are a must for me, but on the resolution aspect I am willing to make sacrifices. I honestly am completely lost in this area. I am not afraid of soldering something myself, but I do want to know exactly what I'm getting into before I attempt this

If you buy an edimensional or XForce3D dongle you won't have to do any soldering yourself and the price is not very high. I think you can view 720p videos without a risk, which is the max resolution of your projector anyway.

My guess is the genlocking/geforce way is probably the most cost-effective for me right now...

Yep, the cost won't be very high with this solution, but I think the sync doubling dongle would cost approx. the same price and is less stressing for the machine and offers the guarantie of never loosing any frame.

[cybereality]

What about using an old GeForce card and soft-modding it into a Quadro? I remember you used to be able to do that, at least on 6000 series cards or stuff around that era. Not sure if you get all the features you need but it might be worth looking into. You can google "SoftQuadro" or "NVSoftQuadroX".

[Thulinma]

If you buy an edimensional or XForce3D dongle you won't have to do any soldering yourself and the price is not very high. I think you can view 720p videos without a risk, which is the max resolution of your projector anyway.

That does sound very good. Could you point out to me what product exactly I would need? I am mostly confused by how everything seems to be called something else on pretty much every website, and nothing seems to be described the way you describe it . If I knew what I needed to look for, I could probably find a store myself (though if you can recommend a store in europe, that would be awesome as well!).

Thanks again for all your help so far, it's greatly appreciated

What about using an old GeForce card and soft-modding it into a Quadro? I remember you used to be able to do that, at least on 6000 series cards or stuff around that era. Not sure if you get all the features you need but it might be worth looking into. You can google "SoftQuadro" or "NVSoftQuadroX".

Yes, I read about that too, but I can't find any way to do it in Linux - only Windows...

[Fredz]

Could you point out to me what product exactly I would need? I am mostly confused by how everything seems to be called something else on pretty much every website, and nothing seems to be described the way you describe it . If I knew what I needed to look for, I could probably find a store myself (though if you can recommend a store in europe, that would be awesome as well!).

You can try those if you want to buy them new :
- http://www.xforce3d.com/xfpc3dgl.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (sync doubling advertized as supported)
- http://www.edimensional.com/index.php?cPath=21" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (supports sync doubling, that's the one I own)
- http://www.berezin.com/3d/shutterglasses.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (you'd need to ask)
The shipping costs should be quite high for international delivery, it's $39 for xforce3d but probably a little bit lower for the others.

Your best bet would be to find something used on ebay or equivalent websites in the Netherlands. For example you can find this one for $39.99 + $14.99 intl. shipping (38,87€ in total) :
http://cgi.ebay.nl/3D-Stereo-Shutter-Gl ... 289wt_1002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You should still ask the seller if it supports sync doubling, because although it looks identical to an edimensional kit I think older models didn't support this mode.

Yes, I read about that too, but I can't find any way to do it in Linux - only Windows...

Yep, softquadro has never been made available on Linux to my knowledge. If they had publicized how they did it it would have been the best solution, but unfortunately Windows developers rarely share knowledge.

[Fredz]

Also there was a new version of sView published today :
http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option= ... 3&catid=35" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can e-mail the developer if you can't get it to work without an Alsa audio setup, I've already been in contact with him and he's pretty much helpful.

[cybereality]

Those XForce3D glasses do indeed support sync-double (at least the wired ones do), but they don't use the standard VESA 3-pin DIN. They have some proprietary connector that only works with the included dongle. That might still work OK for VGA DDC sync, but you won't be able to connect to a professional video card.

[gkv311]

Alright - sView does not seem to work on my setup, it for some reason wants to connect to a jack server (which is not installed, only alsa, and I don't really want to change that...) and then segfaults. Maybe I will persue this option again later - but it looks like a hardware solution is really what I want/need.

sView uses OpenAL soft library. You probably need to configure it on your system if have problems.
sView doesn't 'prefer' jack server, I have only ALSA on my system. But maybe here some another problem.

[Fredz]

Those XForce3D glasses do indeed support sync-double (at least the wired ones do), but they don't use the standard VESA 3-pin DIN.

Thanks for the confirmation for sync doubling support

They have some proprietary connector that only works with the included dongle. That might still work OK for VGA DDC sync, but you won't be able to connect to a professional video card.

Too bad they didn't use the standard. Anyway with DLP-Link glasses you just need to connect the box to the VGA port, there is no need of a VESA Stereo connector.

[Thulinma]

Looks like the Xforce3D kit can be shipped here for a reasonable price. Just to confirm: the website mentions that an nvidia card is required, I assume this requirement is only for windows users? I should be able to use this no matter what videocard is used as long as I set up X to use the proper settings, right? I do very much like the prospect of not needing to worry about the power requirements of adding a GPU.

sView uses OpenAL soft library. You probably need to configure it on your system if have problems.
sView doesn't 'prefer' jack server, I have only ALSA on my system. But maybe here some another problem.

Ah, indeed - adding an .openalrc file telling it to default to alsa makes it "work" - meaning no more segfaults. However, now I'm getting the error "GDK, init failed" instead, after which the program exits.
EDIT: Nevermind. X had crashed on the machine. It opens just fine now Going to test playing a movie through it!
EDIT2: Nice, it works! Unfortunately it inverts the eyes every few seconds so it's not watchable, but really nice to see any 3D at all work on my setup Looks like I will definately need some hardware to make it more stable.

[cybereality]

Looks like the Xforce3D kit can be shipped here for a reasonable price. Just to confirm: the website mentions that an nvidia card is required, I assume this requirement is only for windows users? I should be able to use this no matter what videocard is used as long as I set up X to use the proper settings, right? I do very much like the prospect of not needing to worry about the power requirements of adding a GPU.

The Nvidia requirement was to play games in 3D (ie with the legacy XP driver). However you can use different modes of the dongle (sync-double, line-blanking) without any special card or driver. You just have to have some method of outputting the correct signal.

[Thulinma]

Ok, perfect. I will order an Xforce3D then

Thanks again for all the information and help everyone!
I think I'll be able to get it all working just fine when the kit arrives, but if not I know where to go

[Thulinma]

Hello again everyone! (and thanks again for all the great help so far!)

My kit arrived a couple of days ago, and I finally got around to playing with it.
It seems the guys at xforce3d.com did not quite deliver what they promised - according to the manual of the adapter (which is labeled "Another I", not "XForce3D') it supports "Page Flip Mode" and "Line Blank Mode" depending on the state of the button on the adapter... so no sync doubling?

If I understand correctly, this means that with the button not pushed in (Page Flip Mode), the adapter does nothing at all except steer the glasses (which I don't need / use because the projector steers the glasses already...) and with the button pushed in (Link Blank Mode) it converts from interlaced to page flip.

To test this theory, I fired up sView with a 3D movie and set the mode to interlaced, then activated the adaptor.
And indeed - the DLP-Link glasses, once turned on, showed a perfect 3D visual! Very nice.

However, in this mode for some reason a whole bunch of black horizontal lines are added to the image. I should note I only tested "bad" settings so far (1024x786@60Hz - I can go up to 720p@120Hz and didn't try that yet...), but I wanted to ask around here if anyone has seen this before and/or knows what causes it.

Basically, if I can get these annoying black lines out of the screen, I'd have the "perfect" setup I wanted! (yay!)

[cybereality]

Thats what "line-blanking" does. It adds black horizontal lines into the image (this is what is meant by "blanking" the line). Thats how its supposed to look. Basically you feed it an interlaced source image (meaning two views are horizontally interleaved together). Then the line-blanker blacks out each alternating horizontal row of pixels and the same time as it swaps the eyes of the shutter glasses. So you end up with something similar to page-flipping, but at half resolution.

[Thulinma]

So - at higher resolution, it should look "good"?
Weirdly enough the lines didn't seem to be evenly distributed... but that could just be my eyes, I guess.

And sync doubling is indeed not supported? Did they send me the wrong product, or did they lie in the product description?

[Fredz]

Then you've got three solutions now :
1) send back the glasses saying that they don't work as advertised (ie. no sync doubling mode) ;
2) live with eye inversions with the software page flipping mode in sView. Re-encoding videos in a lower bitrate or resolution (720p since it's the native resolution of your projector) may help reduce the inversions ;
3) buy an older NVIDIA graphics card (< GeForce 7950) and either install a Windows XP partition with the old NVIDIA stereo driver or compile Genlock under Linux to be able to use an hardware page flipping mode.

[bgnome]

is this similar to the problem you are having?
http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37616" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i have to admit that i am not exactly sure what the difference is between sync doubling, line blanking, etc. But I believe that the extra black lines are a result of the processing of an "interlaced" signal rather than a "progressive" signal. since each field in a traditional interlaced signal represents 50% vertical resolution, line blanking that field results in an image with 25% vertical resolution and a blank line. repeat with the sequential field and you have black lines all over the place. This is NOT the same as the horizontal "interleaved" (left eye line then right eye line) format. Then again, I still get confused as the terminology is used interchangeably.

The interleaved signal needs to be sent as progressive, ie 720p @ 60hz. This should result in a single field with all the lines representing both left and right image, allowing the line blanker to work correctly. not really sure where it went wrong with your set up, but this seems to me to be a reasonable explanation of the visual effect you are witnessing.

[cybereality]

If the lines aren't even, that probably means there is something wrong with the resolution. This happens if you scale anything. You have to make sure you only run it at the native resolution of your display.

[Thulinma]

So 720p it is. Alright. Thanks, I'll try that.

is this similar to the problem you are having?
http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37616" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No, I see the proper 3D image, there's just a whole bunch of random black lines - not in a regular pattern. I hope running at native resolution (720p) and 120Hz will fix that.
After I try (will have to be tomorrow, it's late here) I'll post back here with results

Oh, btw, sending back the glasses is not really an option - a visiting friend brought them from america, I had them ordered to their house. Time to get them exchanged would be like a year this way

[Fredz]

You will always have horizontal black lines with the line blanking mode, whatever resolution or frequency you choose. They should be less visible when using the native resolution of the projector - up to the point of being almost unnoticeable - but you'll still get an halved horizontal resolution for each eye and a dimmer image.

The only solution to have 3D in full resolution and lighting is to use sync doubling with twice the horizontal resolution or page flipping (preferably in hardware to prevent eye inversions). It's really too bad that they lied about the capabilities of their shutter glasses system.

You could also create a sync doubler yourself by following the instructions on this page, but it'll cost you another $30 and some sweat :
http://www.nord-com.net/cnb00957/Shutte ... oller.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i have to admit that i am not exactly sure what the difference is between sync doubling, line blanking, etc.

Everything is explained here :
http://www.stereo3d.com/formats.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[egavi]

Another solution would be to use an application that supports software page flipping like sView (available on Linux) but you'll have occasional missed vertical retraces and eye inversions with it depending on the speed of video decoding on your machine.

Hello,
will sView work with a DLP projector or HDMI 1.4 formats? (apart from sync issues)

I tried installing it but I havn't managed.
http://www.sview.ru/en/download" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I get to the point in which the key is added and the /etc/apt/sources.list is appended.

The installation, however, gives this message:
"
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
E: Unable to locate package sView
"

any advice, please?