My Passive polarised Dual-projector setup

Post by **BlackShark** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:45 am

I didn't use an actual camera, it was done with my camcorder (which has a very crappy photo mode).
I set it on a tripod, set the exposure time to the longest allowed by the camcorder : 1/3 second, and then I set the exposure at the first notch that showed over-exposure (zebra tool appearing on the over-exposed areas). I then took the shot using the delay timer feature in order to make sure my pressure on the trigger would not make the picture blurry.

Then on the computer I modified the gamma curve a bit in order to make the grey scale look more even on the monitor and the ghosting appear more like my eyes were seeing it. (the blacks were so crushed on the original picture that you couldn't distinguish the ghosting areas from the black).

Post by **Fredz** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:12 am

Thanks for the informations, I didn't think about using the delay timer, I'll try that.

Post by **relaxman** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:59 pm

Hi

Today i "upgraded my ati 4350 to nvidia 210 card, and have a big problem!
I connect 2 infocus 720p projector to it: one to hdmi and other to dvi.
In this case the horizontal span mode is not selectable anymore

I need this mode becuase Stereoscopic player like it much more, than
dualview, which is selectable, but i get big sync problem and many black lines
on the picture when playing in dualscreen mode.
When i change one projector to a monitor (with dvi->vga converter), span
mode is selectable and works like a charm for 3D.

So my 2 question:
- why disappear this mode when i am in dvi+hdmi connection?
- in dualview why i get black lines? seems like the card isnt fast enough
or the ddr2 ram is too slow, but i dont think so, because the ati 4350 was
with exactly the same memory, and worked well.

Oh, i'm in xp sp3, latest nvidia driver and directx.

Help!
thx!!

Post by **Likay** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:08 pm

Only nvidia knows...
The horisontal span is removed from nvidiadrivers in vista/win7, perhaps because they've introduced the new feature surround... Surround wouldn't had been a new feature otherwise.

Just joking but they've already done it with 3d.
I don't really know the answer but it's a driver issue for sure. Below win7 the drivers for dual outputs and nvidiacards have been well synced in last revisions of their drivers (at least using a 8800gtx) but i'm not sure if it's only a coincidence. It doesn't seem to follow winxp according to your experience though.

Remember that the 210-card surely isn't the fastest around though.

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:39 pm

I don't know if that low-end card can really cut it. I bet you would have no problem if you had a better video card with dual DVI outputs. The GTS 450 is probably the cheapest card I would consider if I were you.

Post by **relaxman** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:27 am

Some weeks ago, i have a chance to test exactly the gts450, and with it
i also have playback problem! It was just not smooth.

So "I don't know if that low-end card can really cut it. "
Yes, it can. Ati 4350 was the same cheap, 64bit, ddr2 model, and it worked!
It's just not good for modern games i know, but i only want to play 2 hdv videos
without any problem to dvi and hdmi output. This can handle those cheap cards with
fast dualcore cpu.

"The horisontal span is removed from nvidiadrivers in vista/win7"
Yes, i read that, but i'm in xp sp3.
And how i read THIS IS THE PROBLEM!

Directx renderer has a bug in xp, that was fixed in vista/win7
So maybe i can use dualview without a problem in win7!
Too bad i buyed xp, and win7 is not cheap

But i cannot understand why span mode isnt available in xp with 2 digital connection,
only when the one is analog (vga)?

I try with older drivers

Post by **Fredz** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:57 am

I'm not sure, but since there are only two CRTCs in a graphics card I guess the two digital ports could be connected to the first CRTC and the analog port to the second CRTC.

Post by **relaxman** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:23 am

What is a CRTC?
And why work dvi and hdmi at the same time on ati, without any problem?

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:42 am

I have certainly used all manners of dual-display options with an Nvidia card (horizontal span, dual-view, etc.). This worked perfectly fine using 2 CRT monitors and a dual-DVI video card (with 2 DVi>VGA adapters and VGA cables). I was also able to run two LCD panels, in horizontal span mode in XP. This was using the same 2 DVI ports, one DVI cable and one VGA cable (with DVI>VGA adapter). No reason this shouldn't work with 2 DVI cables, or 2 VGA cables. Again, if you buy a real video card you probably wouldn't have this problem. When I said "a low-end card can't cut it" I wasn't referring to gaming performance. I was talking about that they don't usually have the hardware support that mid/high end cards do. In this case, the GeForce 210 can only support dual-monitor if one of the cables comes from the VGA port ( http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=429253&mpage=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). I have no idea why a GTS 450 had choppy playback, it certainly has the specs to support what you are doing. Not that I thought that was a particularly good card, but it seems like it was the cheapest card with dual DVI output (which is what you need). I cannot attest to the performance.

Post by **Fredz** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:54 am

relaxman wrote:What is a CRTC?

A CRTC is a Cathode Ray Tube Controller, it is a part of a graphics card that connects a video ram segment to a display output. It was first used with CRT monitors/TVs but it's still used for other types of displays (LCD, PDP, DLP, etc.).

It's a legacy of the MC6845 chip introduced by Motorola in 1977/1978, it has been used for several generation of computers (Apple II, Amstrad CPC, BBC, MDA/CGA graphic cards for PC) and its logic is still used in the graphic cards we use today.

relaxman wrote:And why work dvi and hdmi at the same time on ati, without any problem?

I guess not all the graphic cards models allow a CRTC to be connected to any display port, but it may only be a limitation of the driver. On Linux you can specify which CRTC you want to connect to a display port with the xrandr command but I don't know if it's possible under MS Windows.

But even on Linux you can't always connect a CRTC to the port you want as explained here :
http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/HowToRandR12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Some outputs may also be restricted to some CRTC. xrandr --verbose gives information on which CRTC are available/used for each output. For instance, below, LVDS (ie. internal panel) uses CRTC #0 and may not use any other one. VGA-0 uses none currently and may use #0 or #1."

cybereality wrote:This was using the same 2 DVI ports, one DVI cable and one VGA cable (with DVI>VGA adapter). No reason this shouldn't work with 2 DVI cables, or 2 VGA cables.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in this case I suppose you still had the first CRTC connected to the analog port (VGA) and the second CRTC connected to a digital port (DVI). As I said I don't know if all the graphic cards/drivers allow two digital ports (DVI and HDMI) to be connected to two different CRTCs.

Post by **relaxman** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:09 pm

"if you buy a real video card you probably wouldn't have this problem."
No!
This mode also disappear as i read, even on high end cards: gtx285 for example here
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=91479

Not just he have this issue...
"I just ran into the problem yesterday...the problem is that you are not able to use horizontal span with an HDMI cable. I swapped out to dvi and vga and those both worked, so the problem resides in the dvi->hdmi."

So this is NOT because its a cheap card.

"the GeForce 210 can only support dual-monitor if one of the cables comes from the VGA port "
As i sayed i can run it in dualview mode, so technically horizontal span can't be harder. It's just a driver bug or ugly limit.

"it was the cheapest card with dual DVI output (which is what you need).
Yes, and ati 4350 was also the cheapest from ati, and this one works!

Nvidia+xp+dvi+hdmi at the same time = really bad idea for 3D!

And for why the performance decrease so much in dualview mode and i cannot use it for 3D,
i found this:

"Basically Windows XP doesn't render DirectX very well across two screens.
its fixed in Vista though, so you can Dual-view and still get a good Frame-rate.
The problem is with how DirectX renders over multiple displays.
The bug is fixed in Vista."

So it seems i need win7, but i buyed xp for 3D and dont want to replace to a
more expensive win7.

thanks

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:33 pm

Ok, maybe its an HDMI issue then. I don't know. But my advice of needing a dual-DVI card is still valid. Also, I am not sure going to Win 7 is going to solve all your problems. I think they redid a lot of how the display driver works in Windows, so there are not all the same multi-monitor options you get on XP. Performance might be better though. Also, if the ATI 4350 works so good, why did you get another card?

Post by **relaxman** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:54 am

Because we also have a 120Hz projector, and this card doesnt support dual link dvi.
Gef. 210 support it, and i thinked it also can do dual output without any problem.
But it's not the case.. Now i have 2 choices:
- try win7 with this card
- or go to ati 5450 which is duallink capable, and hope that doesn't have this span mode limitation.

"so there are not all the same multi-monitor options you get on XP"
I don't need so many option, just one, that works smoothly with our dual projectors..
It doesnt matter if its span, dualview, extend desktop, eyefinity or whatever.

cheers

Post by **relaxman** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:12 am

I found the official explanation for the slow rendering in dualview mode:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1106/xpshit.jpg

So this is solved.
The last open quesion is why nvidia disabled span modes when using dvi+hdmi,
when in dualview mode i can use this two output at the same time?

If i cannot solve it tomorrow, i go back to Ati 5450 (without cuda, but with working extend display mode, which was great for 3D in XP)

HNY 2011!

Post by **relaxman** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:07 am

So people, i buyed an Ati 5450 1GB ddr3 Card for the problemfree 3D playback
of my 2 HDV videos to 2 Infocus X9 projector polarized setup.

I read here these:
"Eyefinity does not require two cards, just one is enough
but you need an ATi HD5xxx series card"
OK, it's an Ati 5450.

"Having a CPU usage close to the limit is not recommended,
overclocking little the CPU will definitely help "

I even upgrade my 2.5GHz (800fsb) CPU to a 3.2GHz (1066fsb) one.
And guess what happened on xp sp3?

THE PLAYBACK IS WORSE THAN BEFORE!!!

- I often see some tearing problems at the lower part of the video in extend mode.
I don't know why, because videos are 50i, projectors and ati drivers both set at 50Hz,
and never had this problem with 4350 card.

- i cannot see Eyefinity in the display mode list, only clone, extend and stretch.
Eyefinity need a special driver? i downloaded only the latest driver+ccc pack.

- the CPU upgrade seems it was useless, video playback still need about 75-80% cpu usage,
with gabest mpeg2 decoders but i thinked it will remain always below 70%,
because of 3.2 vs 2.5 ghz. I don't see any improvement.

Now what can i do? Go back to 4350 and live without 120Hz support?
Or forget XP, because win7 solve all my problem with ati and even with nvidia card?

thx!

Post by **cybereality** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:55 am

That card is supposed to support Eyefinity. You're doing something wrong.

Post by **relaxman** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:28 am

OK, today i try this driverpack:
Package Includes:
Display Driver
OpenCL Driver
ATI Integrated Driver
Catalyst Control Center
(English Language Only)

Post by **relaxman** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:55 am

I googled and found this on amd website:
"At least 3 simultaneous, active display outputs, including one DisplayPort™ connector are required to support AMD Eyefinity technology"

So, are you sure it will work with 2 display?
A card with displayport is required?

I continue to read: There is no support for Windows® XP.

Post by **BlackShark** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:57 pm

The AMD website does not talk about such a Windows XP incompatibility with Eyefinity. (edit : I just found where it says no Windows XP support)
The site says this card does have Eyefinity support though.
The DisplayPort output is only required to plug the 3rd display. On my System the dual projectors are plugged on the DVI outputs, the DP output is plugged on the Zalman monitor via a VGA adapter.

Eyefinity is not labelled as "Eyefinity" in the driver, that's just a brand name for 3-displays gaming.
The feature you are looking for is called Display group, you access it in the Catalyst control centre, on the desktop configuration page where you get the squares representing the desktop with the display icons at the bottom.
Display grouping is enabled by right-clicking on the square representing the desktop (not the display icons like when you extend or clone the display).

At least that's how it works for me on windows 7.

Post by **cybereality** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:15 pm

Ah, yes. Eyefinity is not supported on XP. Seems that AMD is not exactly up-front about this, they could be more forthcoming. So dude, XP is like a decade old, gotta get with the times.

Post by **relaxman** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:03 am

cybereality wrote:XP is like a decade old, gotta get with the times.

Yes, thanks.
I don't want to spend $150 again for an operating system, when i have the legal XP (in EU we cannot buy upgrade versions). Instead i go back to 4350

But now it seems 5450 also worked for 10 minutes without tearing. I changed some settings in CCC at video section (disable edge enhancement, denoise, dynamic contrast, etc.) Maybe this occured the problem? Because for 2 stream in extended desktop mode, the card is too slow?
I don't know, will test it for longer time, to be sure.

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:15 pm

XPDead.jpg

Post by **Likay** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:20 pm

Lol^^
However i still miss some features in displaydrivers of xp that's still missing in win7.... I wouldn't say win7 is overall an enhancement..

But it's true. If an old op-system looses support we're forced to eat next one whether or not it tastes good...

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:51 pm

Well newer isn't always better. I mean, in a lot of ways CRT was (and still is) better quality than LCD. But you can't live in the past forever. Its also not especially hard or expensive to add an extra hard-drive to your computer and dual-boot.

Post by **relaxman** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:05 am

The hard drive is of course the cheap one.
Win7 is the expensive. We use this machine only once or twice per month, and only for 1 hour
3D playback, and as i sayed i buyed XP. This is the reason why i don't like to buy a full w7.

"hard-drive to your computer and dual-boot"
Why should i make a dual boot, if i only want one problem free system?

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:30 am

Well if you only use it for an hour each month then I can understand. I just looked at the prices and the full Win7 Ultimate is $269. Yeah, that is a bit pricey actually. Though you can get Home Premium for $99, which is a bit more reasonable.

Post by **Likay** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:14 am

cybereality wrote:Well newer isn't always better. I mean, in a lot of ways CRT was (and still is) better quality than LCD. But you can't live in the past forever. Its also not especially hard or expensive to add an extra hard-drive to your computer and dual-boot.

This is exactly what i did. However it's a mystery why some great functions were left out in a newer op-system.

Post by **BlackShark** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:25 am

But isn't Charlton Heston dead ?

Anyways, I agree XP had features that Windows 7 still lacks, I miss the one in particular that allows restarting your network card with a single right-click item.

Post by **relaxman** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:31 pm

People, i cannot believe what happened with me.
As i wrote, we have a dual projector polarized setup connected
to an Ati 4350 DDR2 card dvi+hdmi. This setup worked well
with xp sp3 and Stereoscopic player, but unfortunatly this
lowprofile Ati doesn't support 120Hz, what i want to use
for 120Hz projector. So i thinked i upgrade the card to an 5450
model, hope that everything will work as before or even better, and
have the 120Hz. But it's not the case!
With the same setup, the same settings, cables, etc. i often have
tearing effect on the bottom of the video frame! Some lines appear
in one video. I tried everything, but cannot set a so stable system,
that was before! Is it possible that ati 5450 is slower in some
aspect than the 4350?
It's gpu frequency is higher and the ram is also better DDR3.
So i cannot believe, this can happened with me!
I want to wake up!!

(i try win7 with grouped display option, but cannot set 2560x720, and
with extended desktop setting, i only get black when switch to fullscreen.
don't know why, but again, i dont want to go to w7, if xp was also good
with 4350)

Should i get my old card back? To bad i sell it!

Post by **Likay** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:04 pm

I'm not following. You use two projectors right? And you also talk about 120Hz + polarization which cunfuses me. Are you trying to run the monitors spanned with 120Hz shutter?

Post by **relaxman** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:17 pm

"I'm not following."
Sorry

I wanted to use this machine also on our dual projector setup and also with my single acer 5360.

Post by **Likay** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:26 pm

Dunno what to do in shuttermode but turning vsync on sometime helps in games for tearing.

Post by **relaxman** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:53 pm

Thanks, i will check it, but dont remember, if i have this setting there...

When i google some vsync ati problem i found this:
"All nVidia and ATi users have encountered this problem. DX10 relies on a different refresh rate management system than the prior DX's used. Which is why if anyone has tried any refresh rate programs to lock/force refresh rates (and hoping that they work on DX10) they usually don't work."

Maybe the whole problem exist because the card is a DX11 one?
And 4350 was only DX10. Maybe. Maybe because XP doesnt support dx10 or 11 anyway only 9 as far as i know..

So is it possible that 5450 is worse/slower than 4350?

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:44 am

It won't have anything to do with dx11 because that is not supported on XP.

Also, could you list out the exact specs of the machine you are using? Not sure if that was ever asked.

Post by **relaxman** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:57 am

yes:
Asrock g41 mh-ge MB
Intel E6700 3,2 Ghz 1066FSB
2x512 DDR2-800 dual channel
320GB 2,5" Sata2 HDD
LCpower 380W power
xp sp3, latest catalyst, and dx-webupdate
2 infocus X9 on dvi and hdmi

+ati 4350 (worked fine with E3300 processor)
now 5450 won't with better CPU!
I also tried geforce210, but this also wasn't a good choice because of sync problems.

I think i need to go to my doctor

Post by **relaxman** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:10 am

No, it wasn't the settings in CCC that produce the tearing problems as i thinked.
I also tried creating a custom profile and set gpu and memory frequency to
a constant value, because i read, it will solve the problem. But not at me

I also tested d3doverride vsync ON and OFF option, but without any luck.
The only thing what helped me is simply DO NOT USE DIRECTX exclusive mode
settings in player. Without it i can watch now 10+ minute without problem!
But the author of the player sayed only directx mode can guarantee the syncronization.
It doesn't matter now for me, if also produce tearing effect.
No i play without directx and max 65% cpu usage, and hope that i never get
any sync issue (files are on two separate drive, swap file disabled, etc)..

thanks everyone!

Post by **Likay** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:40 am

It is a weird issue. Hopefully a future driverrelease from ati will fix it.

Post by **relaxman** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:48 am

Yes, but again a question:
if it's a driver issue, why not present with 4350?

Post by **Likay** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:45 am

I'm guessing a bit but i assume the graphic chipsets are a bit different and therefore demands different sets of coredrivers. A coredriver for 4350 does not support the 5450 and vice versa. However a driverdownload supports a lot of different chipsets because it has all the coredrivers for the supported chipsets. Only the corresponding coredriver for your chipset will be installed. Someone might be able to give a more clear answer though.

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:00 pm

Have you thought maybe it is the codec you are using for those videos you have? I would recommend re-encoding a video with h.264 (or x264) and seeing if that helps. The modern video cards all support hardware decoding of h.264 and it should be lightning fast, even for dual 1080P streams. You can also get the FFDShow VFW Interface and try messing with the settings (specifically the decoder options).