Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by **German** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:15 am

zoost wrote: Question: Do you want to be able to have the possibility to have some kind of interaction with the world around you. Maybe be using a headset on only one ear? Or don't you mind being completely blocked from teh outside? Just wondering.

If you want to be able to hear the outside world while still experiencing Rift audio content, just wear a pair of open headphones. My headphones of choice are a pair of Sennheiser HD580s which are open. Rather than enclosing the ear with a cup, they go around the ear and you can still hear external noises. It is argued that open headphones have better sound performance than closed.

edit: I missed there was another page, oops.

Post by **Mystify** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:18 am

I've never had headphones that would actually prevent me from hearing things around me if I didn't have the sound turned up way too high.

Post by **Zoide** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:40 am

So, going back to my question, wouldn't we need a FOV of about 180 degrees vs the Oculus' ~100 for full immersion? And yet everyone who has tried it says it's fully immersive. Let me know if it's okay to ask that here or if I should create a separate thread.

Thanks

Post by **Mystify** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:52 am

Zoide wrote:So, going back to my question, wouldn't we need a FOV of about 180 degrees vs the Oculus' ~100 for full immersion? And yet everyone who has tried it says it's fully immersive. Let me know if it's okay to ask that here or if I should create a separate thread.

Thanks

Well, just going off the numbers, 100 degrees in the middle of 180 degrees would leave 40degrees on each side- 40 degrees that are in your peripheral vision. I wear glasses. I can take my hands and cup them around the side of my glasses so I can only see out through the area the glasses show. It doesn't make me feel detached, whereas looking through cardboard tubes feels limited. You do very little with the vision on the edges. You primarily detect motion there.
I could see wanting to do something to capture that, say have a system to light the sides in correspondence to the area there, so you could sense a shift if something moves. However, I see that as unnecessary, at least for early versions.

Post by **Zoide** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:41 am

Mystify wrote:
Zoide wrote:So, going back to my question, wouldn't we need a FOV of about 180 degrees vs the Oculus' ~100 for full immersion? And yet everyone who has tried it says it's fully immersive. Let me know if it's okay to ask that here or if I should create a separate thread.

Thanks
Well, just going off the numbers, 100 degrees in the middle of 180 degrees would leave 40degrees on each side- 40 degrees that are in your peripheral vision. I wear glasses. I can take my hands and cup them around the side of my glasses so I can only see out through the area the glasses show. It doesn't make me feel detached, whereas looking through cardboard tubes feels limited. You do very little with the vision on the edges. You primarily detect motion there.
I could see wanting to do something to capture that, say have a system to light the sides in correspondence to the area there, so you could sense a shift if something moves. However, I see that as unnecessary, at least for early versions.

That sounds reasonable, though I think we'd be missing a bit more. The Oculus Kickstarter page states that the FoV is 110° diagonally, but 90° horizontally (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/152 ... o-the-game). Meanwhile the Sensics white paper states that the human FoV is about 200° horizontally (http://sensics.com/files/documents/char ... alHMDs.pdf). That means we're missing 110°, or 55° per side.

It looks to me like the FoV image that Oculus advertises is a bit too optimistic, since it even seems to extend well beyond the sides of the head (>180°):

Am I missing something? Just FYI already pre-ordered last night, so I'm not trying to be a party-pooper. Just trying to understand the technology and the product

Post by **PasticheDonkey** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:49 am

it'd have to be 90 degrees horizontally per eye. and the new screen increases that. with over lap of each eyes fov you've not getting 180 degrees tho.

Post by **zalo** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:52 am

They've agknowledged that that render is off, but they didn't have time to change it before the kickstarter.

Post by **Zoide** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:22 am

zalo wrote:They've agknowledged that that render is off, but they didn't have time to change it before the kickstarter.

It would be nice if they could update it. I think it's also on the video, and it's one of the things that sold me on the Rift, so it's a bit of a bummer for it to be so inaccurate.

Post by **German** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:35 am

Zoide wrote:It would be nice if they could update it. I think it's also on the video, and it's one of the things that sold me on the Rift, so it's a bit of a bummer for it to be so inaccurate.

It sounds to me like you're not a developer. If you're not, you really shouldn't be buying this version of the Rift.

Post by **MrGreen** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:40 am

All I know is that I haven't seen/read a single preview where the user mentioned it would be nice to have a larger FOV. All they say is "I'm in the game".

And the new 7" screen is supposed to have a slightly larger FOV so that bodes well.

German wrote:It sounds to me like you're not a developer. If you're not, you really shouldn't be buying this version of the Rift.

I disagree. Being an enthusiast with enough disposable income is enough in my opinion. He should fully understand what he's buying though.

Post by **Qoheleth** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:53 am

Zoide wrote:
zalo wrote:They've agknowledged that that render is off, but they didn't have time to change it before the kickstarter.
It would be nice if they could update it. I think it's also on the video, and it's one of the things that sold me on the Rift, so it's a bit of a bummer for it to be so inaccurate.

http://www.leepvr.com/spie1990.php

90 degs or greater is what you need to feel immersed.

Post by **MSat** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:56 am

When I order a BigMac from McDonald's, it never looks as good as it does on TV, or in some glossy ads. The FOV has been specified. I don't know what to tell you if you based your purchase on a CGI graphic - one which seemed to be more oriented towards making a relative comparison to common low FOV HMDs. I'm sure you jumped on it because of all the positive previews you've been reading around the net, and I'm willing to bet you'll be blown away as much as everyone else once you get your hands on it

Post by **Mel** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:58 am

MrGreen wrote:All I know is that I haven't seen/read a single preview where the user mentioned it would be nice to have a larger FOV. All they say is "I'm in the game".

And the new 7" screen is supposed to have a slightly larger FOV so that bodes well.

German wrote:It sounds to me like you're not a developer. If you're not, you really shouldn't be buying this version of the Rift.
I disagree. Being an enthusiast with enough disposable income is enough in my opinion. He should fully understand what he's buying though.

Actually, I think what he's saying is that he was misinformed about what he's buying, not that he doesn't understand what he's buying.

Post by **Zoide** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:07 pm

German wrote:
Zoide wrote:It would be nice if they could update it. I think it's also on the video, and it's one of the things that sold me on the Rift, so it's a bit of a bummer for it to be so inaccurate.
It sounds to me like you're not a developer. If you're not, you really shouldn't be buying this version of the Rift.

No need to be so quick to judge people. I do program at work, though not for game development. I was thinking of learning Unity though. As for my previous comments, I think I've based them on evidence and I've conceded on several occasions that pretty much every reviewer has said that the FoV is fully immersive. In addition to that, it was already said by someone else that the FoV graphic was incorrect, as I'd suspected.

Post by **PasticheDonkey** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:07 pm

it'll be good as long as you keep your eyes forwards.

Post by **German** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:20 pm

Zoide wrote:No need to be so quick to judge people. I do program at work, though not for game development. I was thinking of learning Unity though. As for my previous comments, I think I've based them on evidence and I've conceded on several occasions that pretty much every reviewer has said that the FoV is fully immersive. In addition to that, it was already said by someone else that the FoV graphic was incorrect, as I'd suspected.

Well you did state that part of the reason you were "sold" on the Rift was the video. This has all been explained and corrected many times before. The Rift came out on Kickstarter before Kickstarter implemented their "must be real" rules so at the time that video was produced, it is possible a larger field of view was imagined. The Rift Kickstarter, as-is, wouldn't even be accepted for publication today. Also, it's a concept video. It's such a giant leap from what consumer HMDs currently provide that the graphic isn't that misleading to the average person. I think all these review reactions confirm that.

Post by **alekki** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:45 pm

MrGreen wrote:All I know is that I haven't seen/read a single preview where the user mentioned it would be nice to have a larger FOV. All they say is "I'm in the game".

In one of the videos from CES someone said something like "the final version will get rid of the black on the borders, right?" I think that's the only mention of low FOV I've heard.

I don't expect the FOV to be so high that I won't notice it's lower than in real life. I just expect it to be so high it's really cool.

Post by **German** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:48 pm

alekki wrote: In one of the videos from CES someone said something like "the final version will get rid of the black on the borders, right?" I think that's the only mention of low FOV I've heard.

Which Nate addressed right after he asked. If the guy's IPD is larger than the average that the prototype is built for(6.5cm if I remember correctly) then he's always going to see black bars. The newer 7" version has adjustment to get the proper IPD.

Post by **Libertine** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:50 pm

German wrote: Which Nate addressed right after he asked. If the guy's IPD is larger than the average that the prototype is built for(6.5cm if I remember correctly) then he's always going to see black bars. The newer 7" version has adjustment to get the proper IPD.

6.5, are you sure?

Post by **Zoide** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:54 pm

German wrote:
alekki wrote: In one of the videos from CES someone said something like "the final version will get rid of the black on the borders, right?" I think that's the only mention of low FOV I've heard.
Which Nate addressed right after he asked. If the guy's IPD is larger than the average that the prototype is built for(6.5cm if I remember correctly) then he's always going to see black bars. The newer 7" version has adjustment to get the proper IPD.

Yes, here's the video. The comment is around the 9:20 mark: http://www.stfuandplay.com/video/episod ... PWXmCfC38e

Post by **German** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:03 pm

Libertine wrote: 6.5, are you sure?

I'm going from what I remember of the DIY Rift thread. It might be 7cm since that's the 95th percentile according to Wikipedia.

Post by **Randomoneh** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:50 pm

Zoide wrote:I have a question regarding the Oculus FOV and immersion. The reviewers so far say that the Oculus covers their whole field of view, yet it's about 100 degrees horizontally versus the human visual system's limit of 200 degrees for both eyes (according to a Sensics whitepaper). Am I misinterpreting something?

You'd need ~270 degrees for full field of view (eyeball rotation included). Palmer said he has a 270-degree prototype:

PalmerTech wrote:Here is a picture of one of my 270 degree prototypes:
Image
Sorry for not showing a picture of the lenses, I want to avoid showing exactly how it works until I get a chance to perfect it myself, hope people understand. At least it shows you what a crazy setup it is!

From an article:

The display adds on an additional 90 degrees outside of the user’s field of view which is visible if the user decides to look around the display. Luckey says that [with 270-degree version] even if you turn your eyes all the way to one side you still can’t see the edges of the screen. Talk about immersion!

Peripheral vision is as almost as important as foveal vision. Palmer knows this. He's not building 270-degree version for a joke.

German wrote:If the guy's IPD is larger than the average that the prototype is built for(6.5cm if I remember correctly) then he's always going to see black bars. The newer 7" version has adjustment to get the proper IPD.

FOV partially depends on IPD. IPD adjustment (lens movement + software) won't change the area of FOV that display is occupying.

Qoheleth wrote:90 degs or greater is what you need to feel immersed.

No. As with many other senses - change is gradual. It's not like "80 is not immersive, 90 iis immersive and 270 is no different than 90." That's ridiculous.

HMD's should strive towards larger and larger FOV figures. For now, 80-90 horizontally is probably great. 200 would allow you to notice if someone is standing or sitting beside you in a game.

Post by **Zoide** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:15 pm

Thanks Randomoneh! That was a very helpful reply.

Post by **android78** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:28 pm

Ok, not sure if this has been posted yet, but can someone please send the guys at irrational games a rift:
http://au.ign.com/articles/2013/01/15/b ... difference
I've always thought the original bioshock with the incredibly immersive environments would be fantastic with the rift... just imagine playing infinite on it and looking at all the wonderful art.

Post by **PasticheDonkey** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:38 pm

it has it's own thread

Post by **Zoide** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:12 am

I found an interesting article about immersion in the context of movie screens: http://www.lfexaminer.com/20090522a.htm. So is using the Oculus Rift similar to sitting in the front row of one of the bigger IMAX theaters? (plus head tracking of course!

)

Post by **Randomoneh** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:42 am

Zoide wrote:I found an interesting article about immersion in the context of movie screens: http://www.lfexaminer.com/20090522a.htm. So is using the Oculus Rift similar to sitting in the front row of one of the bigger IMAX theaters? (plus head tracking of course! )

Page 200, yay!
Cinerama was filmed with a camera that had a FOV of 146 degrees. Today, movies are filmed with much lower FOV so in order to match camera FOV with your FOV, you have to sit farther. Games have no such problem since most of them have FOV sliders.

Post by **STRZ** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:44 am

Zoide wrote:So is using the Oculus Rift similar to sitting in the front row of one of the bigger IMAX theaters? (plus head tracking of course! )

Assuming the FOV is beyond 100° (you'd miss parts of the movie because 50% of what happens on the screen would happen in periphal vision). The difference is that your looking at the middle of the screen when using the Rift, in an imax cinema you would be looking up, the middle of the screen wouldn't be at eyelevel sitting that close to the screen. Very annoying in my opinion.

Post by **Hicks100** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:31 am

"(you'd miss parts of the movie because 50% of what happens on the screen would happen in periphal vision)"

thats one of the things i dont like about I-MAX. So the camera FOV is no bigger than normal but the screen is so darn large that you miss alot of whats going on.

Went to see Prometheus in Imax 3D then had to watch it again on my projector at home to see it "properly"

I found that the 3D on that size screen just added to the problem as it draws your focus to certain points which again makes you miss alot of whats going on.

Post by **EdZ** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:14 pm

Hicks100 wrote:thats one of the things i dont like about I-MAX. So the camera FOV is no bigger than normal but the screen is so darn large that you miss alot of whats going on.

That's why there's a difference between showing a regular film blown up onto an IMAX screen, and a film shot specifically for IMAX.

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:15 pm

Happy 200th page! A first for MTBS3D!

Post by **Randomoneh** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:32 pm

EdZ wrote:
Hicks100 wrote:thats one of the things i dont like about I-MAX. So the camera FOV is no bigger than normal but the screen is so darn large that you miss alot of whats going on.
That's why there's a difference between showing a regular film blown up onto an IMAX screen, and a film shot specifically for IMAX.

Huh? Movies shot with high FOV lens with action happening closer to the center and edges filled with not-so-important scenery?

Post by **PasticheDonkey** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:37 pm

EdZ wrote:
Hicks100 wrote:thats one of the things i dont like about I-MAX. So the camera FOV is no bigger than normal but the screen is so darn large that you miss alot of whats going on.
That's why there's a difference between showing a regular film blown up onto an IMAX screen, and a film shot specifically for IMAX.

yet most critics love imax even for films designed to be shown in normal cinemas as well, but poo poo 3D. such a simple perspective when it comes to such technicalities. bigger brighter screen better glasses bad. it annoys me having to wait for people to retire so that those who have grown up with stuff can be the majority opinion.

Post by **rmcclelland** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:40 pm

Kickstarter update #16 was just posted:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/152 ... sts/387139

Nothing new, just a CES recap.

Post by **cybereality** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:30 pm

Some amazing praise in that latest CES update. Its incredible the Rift has gotten almost unanimously positive press. Good show.

Post by **Tbone** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:36 pm

This thread should be preserved for history! Ground Zero for the VR Age! This is going to be exciting to follow!

Post by **MrGreen** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:13 pm

Tbone wrote:This thread should be preserved for history! Ground Zero for the VR Age! This is going to be exciting to follow!

Damn right! This definitely is an historical thread.

Post by **STRZ** » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:00 pm

cybereality wrote:Some amazing praise in that latest CES update. Its incredible the Rift has gotten almost unanimously positive press. Good show.

I'm getting very hyped and euphoric chills watching those CES videos, the reactions, positive comments. Lurking on reddit, this forum..i'm feeling like a 10yr old before xmas

Here's another good one, don't know if it was posted already: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJo12Hz_BVI&feature

Post by **Endothermic** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:06 am

If there simply wasn't such an abundance of video's of different people at different events then I'm sure there would be people saying the video's are fake and just paid actor's to try and hype up the impending release of the product

Post by **Randomoneh** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:15 am