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Namielus
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Namielus »

Frenchie wrote:I think the virtual cinema is really cool! One question that has probably been answered somewhere but how likely is it that we'll see something along the line of a "virtual monitor screen" which could potentially replace regular desktop/laptop screens?

For example, if anyone has played League of Legends, this game is obviously not meant for the Oculus Rift but it would be cool if we could still use the rift with it where the rift's screen acts as a replacement for a regular monitor.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Valez »

druidsbane is working on this.
Only problem is the very low resolution of the virtual monitor.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by druidsbane »

You can check out this thread and my sig http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15088, but a few people are working on it and there are 3 being worked on I believe, 2 for Linux and 1 for Windows though performance on the latter might still be an issue. Not much is being done on my side at least as I'm just waiting for a Rift and a Leap Motion to play with. It pretty much works, though how useful it will be with current resolution is up to debate ATM.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by ften »

Awesome project. When I was long distance dating my girlfriend (now wife) we used to watch the same Netflix movies together, this bring it to a whole new level, lol.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Naru »

druidsbane wrote:You can check out this thread and my sig http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15088, but a few people are working on it and there are 3 being worked on I believe, 2 for Linux and 1 for Windows though performance on the latter might still be an issue. Not much is being done on my side at least as I'm just waiting for a Rift and a Leap Motion to play with. It pretty much works, though how useful it will be with current resolution is up to debate ATM.
I'm working on a Windows VR desktop, and performance is definitely a big issue. It's basically one giant hack the way I'm doing it. I'm also having to implement a lot of windowing things myself which is kind of a bummer. I'll be posting about the project eventually, maybe early January. You should all be extremely excited. 8-)
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by logicalChimp »

This all looks excellent (and yes, I'm waiting for the windows VR desktop, cos I got no choice about the OS at work :D)

ANyway - one (hopefully) minor request - can you add an option to disable the barrel distortion required for the Rift? That way, these 3D WMs should also be perfectly usable with other HMDs (such as Sony HMZ, ST1080, etc) with the higher resolutions...
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Namielus »

Easy peasy
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Naru »

logicalChimp wrote:This all looks excellent (and yes, I'm waiting for the windows VR desktop, cos I got no choice about the OS at work :D)

ANyway - one (hopefully) minor request - can you add an option to disable the barrel distortion required for the Rift? That way, these 3D WMs should also be perfectly usable with other HMDs (such as Sony HMZ, ST1080, etc) with the higher resolutions...
Don't other HMDs have a widescreen view? Meaning the change requires an aspect ratio change to 32x9, split between both eyes. This is not hard to do either, but since I have no experience with other HMDs I was wondering if they accept SBS 3D output. On a similar note, does anyone know if when you connect the rift (or any other HMD) to the pc if it is treated as a secondary display? Basically if we can keep the main display free, with the rift app or game fullscreen in the HMD display.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by logicalChimp »

can't speak for all the other HMDs, but the Sony HMZ-T2 supports side-by-side rendering (and from what i've read, I *think* the ST1080 does too)

Hopefully the 3D WMs support different resolutions, if only so they support early DIY, Dev, and Consumer rifts :)

As for the second question - yes, they connect as additional displays, and in windows the desktop can either be mirrored or extended (I use an extended setup. by removing the lower light blockers from the HMZ, I can look 'under' the HMZ, and see the main monitor :D)
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Naru »

logicalChimp wrote:can't speak for all the other HMDs, but the Sony HMZ-T2 supports side-by-side rendering (and from what i've read, I *think* the ST1080 does too)

Hopefully the 3D WMs support different resolutions, if only so they support early DIY, Dev, and Consumer rifts :)

As for the second question - yes, they connect as additional displays, and in windows the desktop can either be mirrored or extended (I use an extended setup. by removing the lower light blockers from the HMZ, I can look 'under' the HMZ, and see the main monitor :D)
Thanks for the info. The way things are going in Windows, I might have to use the main display for some things all while you're wearing the Rift. For some reason, the thought of multiple resolutions never crossed my mind, but I see now it's an obviously necessary feature. :D
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by brantlew »

Sorry to be the skeptic, but I guess I'm a little perplexed by this project. Now I like the larger concept of a VR hang-out with social activities, and I respect the technical work that has been done on it. But specifically the virtual cinema thing seems a bit off to me. Or at least it seems ill suited for Rift users. And I know you have started to invest a significant amount of time and money into it, so I want to make sure you think the idea is sound.

First the technical: On another thread we were talking about how movies are best projected at about 50 degree FOV to avoid having to move your eyes and head much. And in fact since you are rendering what looks like a traditional theater space, I assume that is about the size the users will experience. So given that - Rift users will only be using a little over half of their FOV and resolution for the movie itself. The Rift resolution is already small and precious enough but that will leave an even smaller number of pixels to display the movie with. So from a technical perspective, the Rift does not seem to be the ideal projection technology. Users would be better off wearing a ST1080 or a Sony HMZ-T2 and a head tracker just so they can see the movie clearly. Or even just watching it without virtual projection for the best clarity.

And then there's the experience: Theater movie watching is bit of a solitary activity. I mean there are moments where crowd reaction comes into play but those moments are seldom, and in this theater even less (if any) because of the limited amount of action that users have in the virtual world. So mostly the experience would be of sitting quietly in a chair at home, whilst sitting quietly in a virtual theater (whilst watching a poor projection of a movie). So what is the purpose? How is that qualitatively different than just sitting alone and watching the movie at home or with an HMD?

For me the allure of entering a virtual gathering spot would be to interact with other users and perform socially engaging activities. Exploring the various activity and chat rooms would be fun, but I think I would pass on the virtual theater, since I could recreate that experience much better in isolation. I've run across this in Second Life before - people standing around watching a DJ. If I like the music I often just minimize my window and listen. But I get bored just watching people watch the show so it might as well just be Pandora I'm listening to. But then again, there certainly does seem to a lot of enthusiasm for the project, so what do I know?

Again, not trying to hate. Just curious why so much effort is being put into this one aspect of the project. And curious how others thought about this.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by FingerFlinger »

I think it could be cool for livestream events. But just as with anything social, there need to be enough people...
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Namielus »

Brantlew, The reason is simple. First of all this is what I have been getting the most positive responses for. Both in terms of private messages, emails and to some extent the forum replies.
Secondly, this is more long term for the future consumer rift with a much higher resolution.

I am going to be using my own virtual cinema to show a presentation I have made myself with mocap equipment, a creative way to present my ideas to investors.
They will be sitting in the cinema seats, as my virtual character walks around , explains and shows illustrative videos on the screen.

Much of the idea here is the multiplayer part where you can watch streams in multiplayer with your friends
and use it for things like meetings, lectures, presentations etc.

An important aspect of the cinema is the seats themselves, even if you barely see them in the dark. They will be a visual reference when you move your head - thus reducing motion sickness.
In a hmz-t1 the image just hangs in front of you wherever you move, and that can quickly feel nauseating and claustrophobic because no matter where you move your head, the action is hanging in mid air right in front of you.

Adding head tracking for movie viewing on a HMZ-T1 wont be the same. If you view a movie in the hmz-t1 it already has the optimal FOV give or take. Apply head tracking to that, and the movie would be partially outside the screen if you moved your head. If you want to have head tracking with the movie screen at a fixed point in the virtual space on a hmz-t1, and still want to see all of the screen while moving your head, it would have to be a tiny screen.

Besides, I think many people would consider it great to have a personal huge cinema, that feels real. If you dont agree on that, its just a matter of taste and there are probably plenty of people who thinks a floating screen will be sufficient. I am one of those who want a big cinema , and thats despite the fact I have a real home cinema of my own.


That being said, once I have it all in place, its trivial to expand it to my larger multiplayer arena. Offices, stuff to interact with etc. Its a basic task of importing a bigger model.
Physics interaction with stuff, arcades, and even some traditional game content is the plan if this works out. My ultimate hope is to be able to make my zombie escape game.
If I can't make the virtual cinema work, I was destined to fail all along.
Simply because this is what has been getting most responses, and seems like my doorway to actually do this thing.
I just want to focus on the virtual cinema because its going to be a simple standalone app.

I am not putting more money into this than I can afford to lose. I would probably blow that money away on stupid stuff anyway hahaha.

Your skeptisism is noted, but it hasnt really changed my mind. ;)
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Bretspot »

I think its a great idea too, especially considering that this will be many peoples first (and only) HMD.

Also it could be useful for people without 3d Monitors. Want to play a 3D game that is not designed for the rift? it might be interesting to play the game inside a monitor (or cinema screen) inside your HMD, then just use your mouse/keyboard to control it while sitting at your desk.

Inside the VR world you could look around and whatnot just like sitting at your desk.

yes, the resolution is a problem now, but not in the future (hopefully).
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by JanVR »

I understand Brantlew's reservations regarding the theatre concept, but I agree that the virtual theatre is a doorway to many other applications. The theatre screen could be replaced by an actual band (with avatars), or the whole room could be a virtual conference room, or class room (education), or laboratory or whatever - plenty of options. If you can pull off the theatre, you probably gained a lot of knowledge to create many other applications (and be lightyears ahead of the competition). I think this will prove to be worthwhile.

Regarding professional applications, you might have already checked out some other companies who develop 3D environments for virtual events and conferencens, virtual training and simulation, etc.: Altadyn, Designing Digitally, WorldViz, Raytheon (VIRTSIM), ...

Those companies seem commercially viable with their applications; you might be able to take these a step further with the Rift.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Fredz »

brantlew wrote:Sorry to be the skeptic, but I guess I'm a little perplexed by this project. Now I like the larger concept of a VR hang-out with social activities, and I respect the technical work that has been done on it. But specifically the virtual cinema thing seems a bit off to me. Or at least it seems ill suited for Rift users.
I agree with you on this, viewing standard 2D or 3D movies on the Rift is not something that does appeal much to me, mainly because of the loss of resolution. There are benefits though, such as the projection at infinity which should replicate the feeling of space inside a real theater, but I'm afraid watching a movie with a 285x160 resolution won't be a memorable experience (using THX viewing recommendations).
Troy - Rift.png
The problem will be less evident with higher screen resolutions, but even with a 2560x1600 6.1" panel the image will only be at 569x320, still significantly less than even a DivX or a DVD (720x405), let alone a 720p rip or a Blu-Ray.

The other applications could be really great though, especially the professional ones for distant meetings, or the possibility to watch live events such as a conference you couldn't attend, a sport event from a live camera or even a theatre piece in glorious 3D.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by JanVR »

I like the sports events idea. You could build a virtual stadium.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Scog »

Fredz wrote:
Troy - Rift.png
The problem will be less evident with higher screen resolutions, but even with a 2560x1600 6.1" panel the image will only be at 569x320, still significantly less than even a DivX or a DVD (720x405), let alone a 720p rip or a Blu-Ray.
Thanks for the example and the adjusted specs for a likely future model. The resolution is obviously not ideal, but in motion I think I could still enjoy a movie even at the dev kit resolution. Persistence of vision counts for a lot, and stereo 3d should increase visual detail too. A good source at low resolution should still surpass the visual quality of the bootleg camrips that are popular despite their often abysmal picture quality.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Namielus »

And remember, we are not going to be looking into a high resolution world with a low resolution virtual screen.
The whole world is going to be low res, and therefore the low resolution video is not going to stand out as badly as in real life.
Its more like having a filter over your eyes looking at your tv.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Leahy »

The thought of using the RIFT for business presentations makes me want to buy a dozen of them. Imagine the effect this could have on investors.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Dreamliss »

Hey Namielus, just wondering... when you eventually finish this, will there be avatars of some sort for the various people in the theater / arcade at the same time? Will that avatar reflect the direction the person is looking in IRL? Also, how will the movie in the theater be determined? Unless that portion is only offline, I imagine you could run into piracy problems, even if two people just wanted to see a movie together (even if they both owned that movie!). Anyway, just wondering what this will be like once it's finished.

Keep up the good work!
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Namielus »

Yes there will be avatars. I am going to offer some way or another to scan yourself, so the avatar actually looks like you.
Hopefully they will match your motion, so you can have eye contact while talking etc.

You cannot stream video from your screen to someone elses using the game. You either have to stream from a website like youtube, to each computer(thats their copyright issue not mine),
or both of you must have the same file on each respective computer.
Its equivalent to both of you watching tv, while skyping.
Alternatively, you can set up your own stream third party, and stream to your mates. But that's a third party app, I am just providing a player.

Remember, I can actually offer streaming webcams to eachother, but with your face covered its limited what a webcam can give you.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by logicalChimp »

Namielus wrote:Remember, I can actually offer streaming webcams to eachother, but with your face covered its limited what a webcam can give you.
Hmm - if you can offer streaming webcams, could you also handle streaming desktops?

This would (probably) not be good enough for sharing a movie, but (going back to Leahy's comment) would make remote presentations etc very powerful. Currently, in the office we use desktop video-conferencing software, which can stream your desktop. However, it can be hard to describe what your talking about to people on the other end - especially when it comes to drawing their attention to a specific part of the screen (e.g. when explaining technical diagrams etc).

The thought of being able to display the desktop on a virtual cinema screen, and have an aviatar stand in front of it as if it were a proper presentation could make a big difference in getting ideas across. Get the avatars to reflect body position / body language would also make it easier to spot the monkeys either not paying attention, or who don't understand but don't have the confidence to say so...
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by brantlew »

Namielus wrote:Remember, I can actually offer streaming webcams to eachother, but with your face covered its limited what a webcam can give you.
A long time ago I was playing around with the idea of attaching a webcam to the bill of a baseball cap (or to a rod extending from the bill of a baseball cap) so you could still have head tracking and a stable forward view of the person's face. Sure the Rift is going to cover some important parts of your face, but there is still a lot of expression that can be conveyed with the mouth. If you had mine-craft-like block head avatars you could just paste the webcam video right onto the front of their head or an icon if no video was present. Sort of weird - but maybe more effective than the stone faces of traditional avatars (ie Second Life).

An extended but more complex idea would be to do software facial tracking with the webcam and then just transmit the mouth and cheek movements. Those could be rendered on any avatar. Like I said, MUCH more complex but it would save a hell of a lot of bandwidth.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Namielus »

you can actualy project a video from a webcam to the texture of an avatars face.

Its worth looking into.

logicalchimp; You can do what you describe, but you can also project a stream/presentation onto a notepad that you hold in your hands in the virtual world, that you can look down at with your clients and point around with your actual finger gestures (assuming I get leap support)


At this moment I already have yaw, pitch, roll and x, y, z support, meaning the users camera can be moved around in space 1:1 with absolute positional tracking.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by DeeKej »

This looks so cool! :D

I've already planned to spend my summer working on something like this as a personal project, maybe I can help out on this project instead of reinventing the wheel as previously mentioned. :)

I'm not good at programming, simply a beginner who's trying to learn more, but I have worked in Unity a bit, and as I'm studying computer game design at an IT university I can check if others might be interested in helping out as well (I know some awesome C#- and C++-programmers who probably could help out). I'd work for free since I'd do anything to help VR progress (and again, I'm not that good of a programmer :P ), but I can't say for sure about other students.

Other than programming, I could potentially help with other areas as well (3d, 2d, animation, sound... we're being taught basically everything game design here, so yeah..), even though I haven't exactly mastered any yet. :P

Though right now I'm swamped with classes and other projects, so I wouldn't have time to be of much help until early February. :/


(oh, and I'd be more than willing to stick by this project for a while, helping out whenever I have time)
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by PasticheDonkey »

Fredz wrote:
brantlew wrote:Sorry to be the skeptic, but I guess I'm a little perplexed by this project. Now I like the larger concept of a VR hang-out with social activities, and I respect the technical work that has been done on it. But specifically the virtual cinema thing seems a bit off to me. Or at least it seems ill suited for Rift users.
I agree with you on this, viewing standard 2D or 3D movies on the Rift is not something that does appeal much to me, mainly because of the loss of resolution. There are benefits though, such as the projection at infinity which should replicate the feeling of space inside a real theater, but I'm afraid watching a movie with a 285x160 resolution won't be a memorable experience (using THX viewing recommendations).
Troy - Rift.png
The problem will be less evident with higher screen resolutions, but even with a 2560x1600 6.1" panel the image will only be at 569x320, still significantly less than even a DivX or a DVD (720x405), let alone a 720p rip or a Blu-Ray.

The other applications could be really great though, especially the professional ones for distant meetings, or the possibility to watch live events such as a conference you couldn't attend, a sport event from a live camera or even a theatre piece in glorious 3D.
are you taking into account the rifts varying resolution across view arc. temporal resolution can also be a factor if there is any head movement even if it's subtle. and stereo vision can allow more to be gleaned from lower resolutions. while it's certainly not going to be as good as using a HD screen, it may not be as bad as you're making out.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Benjimoron »

You may hate me for saying this, or you may love me for saving you alot of time! But, I think this already exists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ645nJdNSY

I've not tried it myself yet, but I think it does pretty much all you've said. I would say that it's probably relatively easy to add stuff too (although you'd have to work with the creators of this).
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by mahler »

Benjimoron wrote:You may hate me for saying this, or you may love me for saving you alot of time! But, I think this already exists:
It does seem to do almost exactly the same. Two ways I think this can be improved upon:
  • designed for VR from the start.
  • a newer engine
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Benjimoron »

I agree with you, but I don't think that for any reasonable amount of money spent you're going to end up with something better. I think this would be ok with an HMD, and the engine doesn't seem too bad.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by rhinosix »

I was just thinking about some demos I saw for face mapping and substitution a couple of months ago:

http://vimeo.com/29348533
http://vimeo.com/26193010 (This one is impressive. The masks are really stable and convey emotion well.)
http://vimeo.com/45826030
http://vimeo.com/54324560
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Benjimoron »

rhinosix wrote: http://vimeo.com/26193010 (This one is impressive. The masks are really stable and convey emotion well.)
I like this, but I guess there's no download?
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by cybereality »

That video is amazing. I wonder how they got it to work so good.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by Fredz »

PasticheDonkey wrote:are you taking into account the rifts varying resolution across view arc.
Nope I didn't take that into account, but it's not really possible without knowing the parameters of the lens used in the Rift. I may have a try with guesstimated parameters for the 5x aspheric lens used in DIY HMDs (using the known focal length), but that would still be an estimation. It could give an overall idea and perhaps some basis for comparison with my initial estimation, but I'm not sure the result would be that different.

As for temporal resolution and stereo, that may enhance the perception but it would be quite hard to convert that into a measurable resolution gain, if any.
PasticheDonkey wrote:while it's certainly not going to be as good as using a HD screen, it may not be as bad as you're making out.
Yeah my comment was a bit harsh, my point was essentially to say that HD movies filmed with a narrow field of view were probably not the best material to use in a wide FOV HMD with a limited resolution.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by MaterialDefender »

There are quite a few markerless facial mocap solutions out there for a long time. I remember the first one from around 2000. That wasn't completely real time though, IIRC we used captured video as input. But very usable real time solutions are available for years now (Maskarad RT, or a newer system called Faceshift for example and there are more).

About watching movies on the Rift: out of curiosity I just tried that for a few minutes on my DIY-Rift with a 3D-video stretched over the whole screen. In general that's a quite nice experience, but for my taste the resolution is to low once you are accustomed to HD material. It's comparable to sitting directly in front of an old NTSC SD TV with a highly visible shadow mask.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by mahler »

Benjimoron wrote:
rhinosix wrote: http://vimeo.com/26193010 (This one is impressive. The masks are really stable and convey emotion well.)
I like this, but I guess there's no download?
The work from Kyle McDonald is based upon that of Jason Saragih. See the description of his video. It has links to all the libraries. Although still the link to the Jason Saragih library seems to be broken.
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by jayoh »

cybereality wrote:That video is amazing. I wonder how they got it to work so good.
i agree. it really is incredible. we've seen stuff like this before, but the convergence of all these into one thing... now that's really freakin' exciting.
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PasticheDonkey
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by PasticheDonkey »

MaterialDefender wrote: About watching movies on the Rift: out of curiosity I just tried that for a few minutes on my DIY-Rift with a 3D-video stretched over the whole screen. In general that's a quite nice experience, but for my taste the resolution is to low once you are accustomed to HD material. It's comparable to sitting directly in front of an old NTSC SD TV with a highly visible shadow mask.
that's sort of how half side by side 3D content looks on a passive display. you get 540x960. so 800x600 is some what comparable if you're looking at the material on a (perceptually) cinema sized screen. hopefully the screen on the official rift is as good for lack of screen door effect as they say.

on that facial recognition reapplication to avatar vid. good stuff. would be better if eyes were treated as a separate object behind the skewing mask. the problem is most apparent in the obama version, which otherwise is the most realistic of them.
MaterialDefender
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by MaterialDefender »

hopefully the screen on the official rift is as good for lack of screen door effect as they say.
That would help a lot.
geekmaster
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Re: Oculus Virtual Lounge

Post by geekmaster »

Benjimoron wrote:
rhinosix wrote: http://vimeo.com/26193010 (This one is impressive. The masks are really stable and convey emotion well.)
I like this, but I guess there's no download?
Stream Transport downloaded it just fine for me:
http://www.streamtransport.com/

This video is 5.49MB after downloading...
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