free motion gun that could work with the driver?

Post by **Lilwolf** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:51 am

I'm considering trying to build a free roaming gun controller (probably starting with using a gyroscope mouse and some buttons, but in the end, I would love to find out the chip used by the rift, so they would hopefully stay in sync a bit better).

So the gun would control control the motion of a fps (mouse control) and the head tracker would, with driver, would control the view.

I think there will be some drift (gun and head tracker stop thinking north is north), and hopefully having the same chip would help... but...

isn't there a cheap digital compass that could be added to the rift (and the gun)? Just to use to sync up?

And is there anything on the market now?

And would the rift drivers consider adding add-ons for stuff like this? They are already stating they will control the view... but it would be great if the driver could be hooked up to control the direction also... then let other hardware hook into the rift drivers, then start working on all games that work with the rift.

thanks

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:26 am

Adding add-ons? Lol. So far nobody knows what tracker the dev-kit rift will be using. The prototypes have been using a Hillcrest tracker,
with the possibility of a faster firmware if I am not mistaken.
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=15282

How would having more of the chip tracking different motion help on drift? If it tracks an acceleration or motion, it is relative to its previous position only. Every time it tracks from the last position, if it adds even the smallest error, then when it adds something to that position again, it will be from a slightly wrong starting point+ adding slightly more error.
Next point it tracks from is double wrong etc. They would not drift the same way.

The Razer Hydra is one the best options for hand tracking so far, it has magnetic tracking. But it is tethered, even tho Razer
has stated a wireless version is coming. Pptical solutions, ir-cameras, kinect, leap motion, playstation move or similar also has the potential if you can use it in such a way that it sees your hands in all positions and angles.

There are countless threads on this issue, and all you need to is use the search function.

Post by **Lilwolf** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:58 am

the reason that having the same chip is if your head is pointing north, gun pointing north.... both look left 90 degrees... then back... you would hope they are both pointing the same direction. And if they work the same, and use the same driver, the chances of this happening is better.

Or if there is a digital compass, then you would hope this would happen.

As for the search, I did... first page didn't show anything. And really kinda annoying of a response.

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:34 am

Im telling you two hillcrest trackers on the same person can result in different drifts.
Somebody correct me if im wrong. Unless they are using magnetic trackers, or have
a auto-calibrate function for example everytime you hit a button while looking forward+gun facing forward,
they will always drift differently over time.

If you find it annoying, oh well.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 52&p=73566

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 36&p=82433

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15431

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:43 am

The Nintendo Wiimote w/ Motion Plus works decently for this purpose. You can get plastic gun shells for it (check on eBay for "Wiimote Pistol"), like this one I got:

GlovePIE should work with the Motion+, not sure if FreePIE supports the Wiimote yet.

Post by **MrGreen** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:57 am

Namielus wrote:Adding add-ons? Lol. So far nobody knows what tracker the dev-kit rift will be using. The prototypes have been using a Hillcrest tracker,
with the possibility of a faster firmware if I am not mistaken.
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=15282

How would having more of the chip tracking different motion help on drift? If it tracks an acceleration or motion, it is relative to its previous position only. Every time it tracks from the last position, if it adds even the smallest error, then when it adds something to that position again, it will be from a slightly wrong starting point+ adding slightly more error.
Next point it tracks from is double wrong etc. They would not drift the same way.

The Razer Hydra is one the best options for hand tracking so far, it has magnetic tracking. But it is tethered, even tho Razer
has stated a wireless version is coming. Pptical solutions, ir-cameras, kinect, leap motion, playstation move or similar also has the potential if you can use it in such a way that it sees your hands in all positions and angles.

There are countless threads on this issue, and all you need to is use the search function.

Did the guy run over your dog or something mate?

Anyway...

I, for one, am looking forward to the Novint XIO

Post by **Namielus** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:58 am

Seriously all jokes aside, except for the fact that I found the phrase adding add-ons funny, I was not being hostile.
I was just pointing out that most of his questions are already being discussed.
Cant see where I am out of line.
Btw, having tactile feedback in your arms sounds incredibly exciting.

Post by **fireslayer26** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:53 am

I think this gun would work pretty well with the rift. You just plug your wiimote into it. It has the nunchuck built in, so you could use it for forward,back,left,right motion. Program the c and z buttons for whatever you would need in the game. Pump action is your reload and trigger to fire. I haven't messed with Glovepie yet, but I imagine it would be easy to do?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiKddp8kexY[/youtube]

You can also check out this thread: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13771

Post by **alekki** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:19 am

fireslayer26 wrote:I think this gun would work pretty well with the rift. You just plug your wiimote into it. It has the nunchuck built in, so you could use it for forward,back,left,right motion. Program the c and z buttons for whatever you would need in the game. Pump action is your reload and trigger to fire. I haven't messed with Glovepie yet, but I imagine it would be easy to do?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiKddp8kexY[/youtube]

You can also check out this thread: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13771

The problem is that you don't have enough buttons for most games. Wiimote and nunchuck don't have many buttons to begin with, but that gun is even hiding some of them inside its casing, limiting you even further.

Post by **Namielus** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:22 am

where will the ir-emitters be mounted? if its mounted to a fixed point you have to be facing them.

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:53 am

The Playstation Move Navigator has more buttons than the Nunchuk, and works well in a wireless setup. Its also dirt cheap.

Post by **fireslayer26** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:33 pm

cybereality wrote:The Playstation Move Navigator has more buttons than the Nunchuk, and works well in a wireless setup. Its also dirt cheap.

Yes, I love Pierreye's setup as seen here, but I was wondering if you can set it up without the wiimote to simplify things. This way you don't need 2 different bluetooth adapters and run glovepie and motioninjoy.
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 285#p71695

This guy claims to have gotten it to work without the wiimote, but I don't believe he ever stated how. In his comments he says he has an executable to make it work, but hasn't posted it yet.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7ZFTO6H-GA[/youtube]

Post by **alekki** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:37 pm

cybereality wrote:The Playstation Move Navigator has more buttons than the Nunchuk, and works well in a wireless setup. Its also dirt cheap.

Can you use the navigator without PS3 Move? If I've understood correctly, Move needs some kind of sensor bar or camera or something to work, but Wiimote doesn't. At the moment I'd like to have just a simple gun controller where motion detection wouldn't be used for aiming, but for simple gestures like reloading, melee attacks and so on. However, I'd like this to work while allowing me to turn 360 degrees. So basically what I want is a gun shaped Xbox 360 pad (or similar) with simple motion detection for gestures, but not aiming, that works no matter where I'm facing.

Wiimote + nunchuck with something like Wii Zapper would probably be the easiest, maybe even the cheapest, way to achieve this. However, it has few buttons. PS3 Move would be another option, but if it indeed uses a camera or something for motion detection, it probably won't work if I'm facing away from it.

So another option would be Move Navigator + Wiimote but does Move work without the Move motion controller? A big downside would be that there's nothing where you can mount Navigator and Wiimote without some modification.

tl;dr How to make or buy a controller that is shaped like a gun, has a decent amount of buttons, basic motion detection for gestures and works regardless of the direction the player is facing. Preferably something cheap and easy.

Post by **fireslayer26** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:42 pm

@alekki- See the thread I posted about above. Pierreye has done this.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnbUsgJpKqs[/youtube]

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:54 pm

@alekki: The PS Navigator just needs Bluetooth, you don't need any other devices.

Post by **alekki** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:57 pm

cybereality wrote:@alekki: The PS Navigator just needs Bluetooth, you don't need any other devices.

That's cool. How about Move, do you need the camera that comes with the starter packs? Or does it work with accelerometers or something?

Edit. Should've just googled, apparently you need it.

fireslayer26 wrote:@alekki- See the thread I posted about above. Pierreye has done this.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnbUsgJpKqs[/youtube]

How could I forget that? I'll take a closer look at the thread.

Post by **fireslayer26** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:44 pm

I don't believe he uses the camera with his setup. Look at the Move controller, the led ball is not lit up.

Post by **2EyeGuy** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:00 pm

The navigation controller has no motion controls. The Kyle Butler video showing a man using navigation controller gestures to throw grenades must have been from an alternate time line. Or possibly false advertising.

Post by **alekki** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:14 pm

fireslayer26 wrote:I don't believe he uses the camera with his setup. Look at the Move controller, the led ball is not lit up.

I haven't looked into that thread yet, but I think he's using the Wii Remote for all his motion detection needs and Move only as a traditional controller with a joystick and buttons. Apparently Move has an accelerometer and a gyro for detecting orientation (camera is used for more accurate position tracking) but I don't know if it's possible to use them on their own for simple gestures. If it's possible, Move with a Navigator should be perfect for my needs. And if not, it would still make a good gun shaped controller, just without any motion detection.

Post by **Lilwolf** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:55 am

Agreed. (the only annoying part is the assumtion I didn't search... I didn't know the proper terms to search on really... )

Namielus wrote:Seriously all jokes aside, except for the fact that I found the phrase adding add-ons funny, I was not being hostile.
I was just pointing out that most of his questions are already being discussed.
Cant see where I am out of line.
Btw, having tactile feedback in your arms sounds incredibly exciting.

Post by **Lilwolf** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:59 am

I was thinking that a small compass chip (on every cell phone, can't be too expensive) could do it also. Maybe every 1-5 seconds it would check a reading on the compass and update automatically? Trouble is you would need to probably do something on the driver side. (IE, if the game only handles mouse type inputs... How do you say point north-east and a bit up? Might be different for each game)

Idea of having both the same, the drift would be at the same. Seemed like it would be better, but maybe not.

Namielus wrote:Im telling you two hillcrest trackers on the same person can result in different drifts.
Somebody correct me if im wrong. Unless they are using magnetic trackers, or have
a auto-calibrate function for example everytime you hit a button while looking forward+gun facing forward,
they will always drift differently over time.

If you find it annoying, oh well.

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 52&p=73566

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 36&p=82433

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=138&t=15431

Post by **Namielus** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:44 am

Im not entirely sure, but someone else would have to confirm that.

Post by **2EyeGuy** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:04 am

The move has a compass too. It has magnetometers, accelerometers, gyros, and I think one other sensor that I can't tell what it does. So it can do 3DOF tracking better than the Wiimote+ without any camera.

Post by **Namielus** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:59 am

Thats my experience too, the move tracks my hand well even off camera.
I have seen only one game on ps3 where an object was put into my hand with no perceivable latency,
and it was ironically in some calibration mode before an actual game.

Post by **Lilwolf** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:47 pm

It would look silly... but...

if you put the razer hydra... and put on of the controllers on your head (or the base)... then hung the base around our neck... Then the difference between the two hands would probably work well.

I wish they sold a one handed version when a smaller base. (anyone take a hydra apart?)

Post by **Namielus** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:57 pm

Lilwolf look at this

They have a hydra mounted on their body + move.
Search for project holodeck.

Razer is making a wireless version of hydra as well.

Post by **Lilwolf** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:33 pm

lol - wow! I was thinking of doing almost the exact same thing. (I was asking in the hydra teardown thread if anyone tore down the base, to see if we could seperate the dome thingy from the base... or what was in it).

I was thinking I could put one controller in a gun, then move the trigger board for the trigger (and maybe break the board to allow for the d-switch to an area for a thumb.

We could also put one of the controllers on the head, and the base somewhere on your body... this would be a bit lighter I think. Then calculate the difference between the two hands.

But there was a possible other direction I was thinking of. Using Aimtrack + a fisheye lense

http://www.ultimarc.com/aimtrak.html

I would put the camera (pretty small) on the glasses probably pointing diagonally down with a fisheye lense on it. Then I would just put the lcd strip on top of any gun (and deal with the button presses through another keyboard encoder). The output is a mouse emulation and should be able to grab in most 3d engines.

Only trouble would be is the gun (both ends) would need to be in 180 degrees from the head. but I think that would be ok for 99% of game play. Just no running in one direction shooting behind your back as you go... But for 44 bucks + 10 bucks for a fish eye... I think it would work well.

I also preordered the leep ages ago. And that could be mounted on the bottom of the glasses which I think would be pretty awesume... but until I see it in my hands... hard to say how well it will do. Especially with a gun as the interface.

Or the edge3 under the glasses (but that seems like it might take more CPU time then you would want)...

Not sure where to send my money... and sucks that either solution, I would still need to modify the driver of each game I would want to see it in.

Post by **Dycus** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:20 pm

I took apart the base just for you.

Unfortunately, I did not take apart the "bulb* on top. I didn't feel like desoldering the wires, and this is really Palmer's unit... if it were mine, I'd have gone for it.

For reference, here are the controllers torn down: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=14036

Considering the capacitors for the coils, I'm not sure if it would be possible to extend the wires for the bulb. It may change the impedance or capacitance too much. It may be worth a shot, though.

Large 4000x3000 images available upon request.

Post by **Lilwolf** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:27 am

COOL! Thanks for the pictures!

Those wires are really small. If we replaced a chunk with thicker wires, there is a chance the extra resistence from the distance will be removed by the bigger gauge wire. Only 6 wires also, and they don't look amazingly insulated.

How heavy is the ball by itself? With two power adapters, I'm guessing its a bit hefty.

Post by **FlyinWhee** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:37 pm

Longtime lurker, first time poster here.

I've been giving a lot of thought to a FPS-esque controller for use with the Oculus Rift. In the next few days/weeks I'll be testing with the Activision Top Shot Elite gun (Xbox 360 version) coupled with a Wiimote with Motion Plus. The gun because of the shape and the fact it has two analog sticks, and wiimote for movement tracking. But the more I think of how to implement this - be it in a a whole new control scheme, or in existing games - the more it seems the movement tracking on the gun controller itself might be useless.

Anyone who's played a FPS with the PS3 Sharpshooter, or 'Cabela's Dangerous Hunts 2011' with the Top Shot Elite knows how tiring and anything but immersive it is to have to do all the movement with the motion tracking (especially with the IR tracking), gun pointing forward. It doesn't make sense either, you don't walk aiming down your sights. That's why I think having a standard, two analog sticks setup is a good thing to have; for movement. When it gets to actually aiming, motion tracking is very nice to have - via a Toggle button. The announced Avenger Delta Six FPS controller offers an interesting solution, capacitance switch in the gun stock, so that when you cheek the gun, it presses the aiming button. That implementation is brilliant for VR, since at that moment, your head and your gun would be next to each other, thus only requiring one of the two motion tracking methods to be used. Since the Oculus Rift's tracking is probably more reliable, we'd go for that one.

All of this seems to imply having head tracking separate from standard aim, except when shooting. No game uses such a setup at the moment, as far as I know. Even Arma has free head movement EVEN when tracking, although we could "disable" it when shooting.

So having a gun that tracks motion would really only be useful when shooting "from the hip", or in games like Counter Strike, where aiming down the sights is not the preferred method.

[edit] Also, unless both tracking methods are perfectly in sync, in a game where head tracking and aim are separate, it will be insanely difficult to aim. Might be okay for a hardcore simulation but way harder than typically expected in games.

If I were to design a FPS for the rift, I would do away with the "always pointing" gun, switching it to a more relaxed stance, and require the player to press (or hold) a button to use the gun's tracking, and then use the Avenger Delta Six's method, to "fuse" the head and gun tracking for aiming down the sights. Also when aiming, I would disable the display in one eye, removing depth perception.

Sorry for the wall of text, just my two cents worth. If anyone is interested I will update with pictures and such from my controller tests.

Post by **Dycus** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:02 pm

Lilwolf wrote:COOL! Thanks for the pictures!

Those wires are really small. If we replaced a chunk with thicker wires, there is a chance the extra resistence from the distance will be removed by the bigger gauge wire. Only 6 wires also, and they don't look amazingly insulated.

How heavy is the ball by itself? With two power adapters, I'm guessing its a bit hefty.

No problem!

The ball is pretty heavy; it seems to make up at least 1/3 of the weight of the whole thing.

Post by **Fredz** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:30 pm

FlyinWhee wrote:No game uses such a setup at the moment, as far as I know. Even Arma has free head movement EVEN when tracking, although we could "disable" it when shooting. [...] If I were to design a FPS for the rift, I would do away with the "always pointing" gun, switching it to a more relaxed stance, and require the player to press (or hold) a button to use the gun's tracking

I only know one game that does something like this (True Combat: CQB), I also think that's the correct way to do it. It's not an AAA game though, only a mod for Enemy Territory. I played a lot with its predecessor (TC: Elite) because I wanted something more realistic than the crop of FPS military games that were available then. Unfortunately it doesn't seem it will be any longer supported by the guy who developed it.

I mentionned it there previously : http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 772#p76772

From http://www.truecombatelite.com/index.ph ... qboverview :

"Freelook is probably the biggest and most unique feature in CQB. It's when your player model can look from side to side while keeping your weapon in the original forward position. Keep in mind that you can still shoot while in freelook and that the more you move to the side, the more your weapon will shift/sway."

Example of freelook in action :

"Freelook is an optional bind in the game, so you can choose whether or not to use this feature."

FlyinWhee wrote:Also when aiming, I would disable the display in one eye, removing depth perception.

I'm not sure it's needed, you could still show the correct views for each eye, and let the user choose to close one. An option to select the dominant eye would be needed though.

Post by **FlyinWhee** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:55 pm

Fredz wrote: "Freelook is probably the biggest and most unique feature in CQB. It's when your player model can look from side to side while keeping your weapon in the original forward position. Keep in mind that you can still shoot while in freelook and that the more you move to the side, the more your weapon will shift/sway."

It does look kind of like what ArmA does, it'll try it out for sure, might give some new insight for how to tweak the controller. I do like the implementation, in that the gun doesn't stay perfectly still while you look around.

FlyinWhee wrote:Also when aiming, I would disable the display in one eye, removing depth perception.

I'm not sure it's needed, you could still show the correct views for each eye, and let the user choose to close one. An option to select the dominant eye would be needed though.[/quote]

That's another way of doing it, but from the moment you select a dominant eye (or handedness, actually) it's pretty much the same thing.

Post by **Lilwolf** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:16 am

'from the hip' I would expect to be similar to normal game play where the cursor moves with the gun direction, but the head tracking could move from that. The cursor wouldn't be that accurate when your looking left or right (but that would be expected)... The big thing, your aiming looking forward, you quickly look left, you look right, you look back forward (and the gun hasn't moved) you would expect it to still be aiming in the same direction... and if you need, you could hold down the trigger and move left/right.

Then for true integration, I would expect that if you lift the gun up near your head it would go into looking down the barrel. (one eye might be perfect). If you keep the gun and head tracker pretty much in sync, it would just be looking down the barrel, and probably working off the head tracker. If you look left/right, it would switch back to 'from the hip' where gun points direction and your head tracker is just the view.

But the game itself would be based on the gun. and the head tracker would be the view.

And sure it might not give you a real advantage, but it will probably be a lot more realistic and fun.

Post by **Lilwolf** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:18 am

Now I think the best way may be to mount the ball on the gun itself. keep the light part on your head. Triggers now an issue

maybe the other controller also stays on the gun.

Dycus wrote:
Lilwolf wrote:COOL! Thanks for the pictures!

Those wires are really small. If we replaced a chunk with thicker wires, there is a chance the extra resistence from the distance will be removed by the bigger gauge wire. Only 6 wires also, and they don't look amazingly insulated.

How heavy is the ball by itself? With two power adapters, I'm guessing its a bit hefty.
No problem!

The ball is pretty heavy; it seems to make up at least 1/3 of the weight of the whole thing.

Post by **alekki** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:08 am

I now have a controller to use with the Rift. It's not perfect but it does most of the things I want it to. It's simply a Playstation Move and Navigation controller with a gun attachment I bought from Ebay. I chose this one because it was really cheap (less than 10 euros) and it allows me to use all of the buttons without moving my hands.

The only problem I have is that I have found no way to use the motion control capabilities of the Move. GlovePie doesn't support Move so it's out of the question. JoyEmu software from this site: http://code.google.com/p/moveframework/ requires a software called ppjoy to be used, but I can't get ppjoy to work on my computer. It's probably because of 64bit Windows 7. I have tried everything I can think of and find on the internet, but I can't get it to work. I also don't have the know-how to make a software myself using the framework.

It's not critical, because I mostly just wanted a wireless gun shaped controller as Rift can be used for aiming, but it would've been nice to be able to use the controller for mouse emulation or gestures as well. If I really want it at some point, I might go with the route Pierreye went and attach a Wiimote to the controller as well.

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:33 pm

Hey, not bad alekki. Is that gun thing easy to hold, looks like it might be front-heavy or something.

Also, have you tried the MotionInJoy software? I know it works for the Move Navigator, and I used it on Win7 64-bit.

Post by **2EyeGuy** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:54 pm

alekki wrote:The only problem I have is that I have found no way to use the motion control capabilities of the Move. GlovePie doesn't support Move so it's out of the question. JoyEmu software from this site: http://code.google.com/p/moveframework/ requires a software called ppjoy to be used, but I can't get ppjoy to work on my computer. It's probably because of 64bit Windows 7. I have tried everything I can think of and find on the internet, but I can't get it to work. I also don't have the know-how to make a software myself using the framework.

Really? Well, I'm sure GlovePIE will be fixed to support the Move, and Headsoft VJoy, when the Rift comes out.

Post by **WiredEarp** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:20 pm

@ alekki: You are in luck... I have recently gone through the pain of getting PPJoy going on 64bit. Not just that, but I have found a hacked PPJoy that sets the virtual joystick as the first joystick in Windows, so no more workarounds to make the joystick the 'top' joystick (those who have used PPJoy will know what I mean).

I'll try and make up a post later tonight about how to get it working.

Post by **alekki** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:02 am

cybereality wrote:Hey, not bad alekki. Is that gun thing easy to hold, looks like it might be front-heavy or something.

It's a bit front-heavy indeed, but not too much. It's comfortable to hold with two hands. I haven't played with it yet (just to see the controllers work) so how it feels after a long gaming session remains to be seen, but I think it will be perfectly fine.

Also, have you tried the MotionInJoy software? I know it works for the Move Navigator, and I used it on Win7 64-bit.

Yeah, I'm using MotionInJoy, but it doesn't support the sensors in the Move. It works perfectly fine as a controller with eight buttons and vibration, but you need another software to track the orientation. I know the gyros and accelerometers work as there is a calibration tool in the link I posted earlier that can be used to see the orientation and to calibrate the device. It works fine.

WiredEarp wrote:@ alekki: You are in luck... I have recently gone through the pain of getting PPJoy going on 64bit. Not just that, but I have found a hacked PPJoy that sets the virtual joystick as the first joystick in Windows, so no more workarounds to make the joystick the 'top' joystick (those who have used PPJoy will know what I mean).

I'll try and make up a post later tonight about how to get it working.

Thanks! That would be great! I have found some forum posts about getting it to work on 64bit Windows 7 by allowing unsigned drivers, but it didn't work for me. Perhaps you can help me out.