Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by brantlew »

Chriky wrote:I think it has that brantlew, its how the stereoscopic effect works. In one of the early videos it shows the camera moving sideways away from the gun which stays at the player location.
I think those were just his R&D tests to show that he could move the camera into the correct orientations to implement stereoscopic views. Now I want to know if he plans to put an interface that allows the entire stereo camera to be moved.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by divide »

android78 wrote:
divide wrote:Please add support for Crysis/Crysis 2 ! (Crysis 2 may be easier since they already have builtin stereo code).
I'm not sure about crysis 2 being easier because they have inbuilt stereo code. If the PC version is like the xbox or ps3 version, then they are using some tricks to generate the second view that would be more restrictive then helpful. If the PC version does use this, then I think you'd probably have to throw it all out and use the full custom driver for the entire thing. At least, they should be rendering effects at the correct depth though, I guess.
You can choose the stereo rendering display and algo (fast or dual) with console parameters.

Concerning the shifting of the camera rotation/position, except for roll and stereo I guess it's more complicated than that, since you have to hack the engine code itself for proper geometry drawing, not just the directx process.
...Anyway if you're able to do that it would be cool to have support for the most common protocols like VRPN, TrackIR, FreeTrack...
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

@brantlew: Yes, I can do translation (its essentially doing this for the stereo render). Not sure that will make it into the initial version, but I will see what I can do. Altering the camera will not take long, but providing an interface for using tracking devices could take time. Would like to do something generic that would support VRPN and stuff like that, but this will probably come later. Just trying to focus on what will be available on the Rift, which I believe is the Hillcrest Labs tracker.

@artox: I plan on being very open with licensing. So no extreme-DRM or anything (like locking it to a specific hardware configuration). If you buy the software, you can use it on any computers you own, no problem.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by artox »

cybereality wrote:@artox: I plan on being very open with licensing. So no extreme-DRM or anything (like locking it to a specific hardware configuration). If you buy the software, you can use it on any computers you ow
Great to hear, there's definitely a hunger for another driver. I have a few questions -
1.) how is the stereo (iz3d vs 3dvision), you've tried both drivers, so you probably know what I mean. People have been complaining that 3dvision offers less pop-out, but the weapon is rendered correctly and not split, which is the case with iz3d.
2.) performance-wise where does your driver stand :)
Thanks for the info in advance :)
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Likay »

artox wrote:People have been complaining that 3dvision offers less pop-out, but the weapon is rendered correctly and not split, which is the case with iz3d.
Isn't it the other way around? Simple stereo projection option in the iz3d-driver takes care of these issues with some games while nvidia does not. You should have uncomfortable doubling of the gun while using the nvidiadriver (source games especially) when altering the convergence for a better 3d-experience. It's an issue with the games what i know about. The gun isn't rendered properly 3d-wise but when gaming in 2d it isn't disturbing. It's obviously not enough to make gamedevelopers look deeper into it.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

@artox: To be honest, the stereo looks good, but its not as fully featured as the other drivers. But considering the Nvidia driver has been in development over a decade and I have just been working on this a few months. Whats working now decent is the camera separation, but I have some trouble with convergence with some games. So its decent enough to play, but could still use some work to be more flexible. I am also not doing anything special to help with rendering the gun, so if you crank the 3D up all the way then the gun will be totally doubled or off the screen.

The performance is also nothing special. So it takes around a 50% hit (maybe a little less). I can probably improve this at some point, but right now I figure people will have decent hardware, or can lower settings.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by android78 »

My main problem will basically all the previous drivers is that I believe they are not actually rendering correctly, and using kind of a cheat to make them work somewhat.
To explain further, they are using a symetrical view frustum, and to make the view appear 'more' correct, they angle the cameras inwards. To implement correctly, they should actually change the view frustum to make it asumetrical and have the cameras always pointing parallel.
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I haven't done any real research into how the stereo drivers work, but is it possible to do this level of adjustment?
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by android78 »

The following actually better explains what I'm talking about, and some implementation notes:
http://paulbourke.net/miscellaneous/ste ... reorender/
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

Yes, its possible to do this and is actually being done by existing drivers. Currently I don't have this setup yet, so I just keep the camera facing straight forward to avoid the toe-in distortion.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by artox »

Likay wrote:Isn't it the other way around? Simple stereo projection option in the iz3d-driver takes care of these issues with some games while nvidia does not. You should have uncomfortable doubling of the gun while using the nvidiadriver (source games especially) when altering the convergence for a better 3d-experience. It's an issue with the games what i know about. The gun isn't rendered properly 3d-wise but when gaming in 2d it isn't disturbing. It's obviously not enough to make gamedevelopers look deeper into it.
I don't agree with that, I hate simple stereo projection, it looks unrealistic and generally destroys the immersion for me. When playing with iz3d I prefer do hide the gun if possible and play with crosshair or without anything. With Nvidia this is not the situation, the gun looks to be on another plain and you can get much more separation if not convergence without splitting it. If I want to get the same amount of depth with iz3d I have to reduce the convergence severely or the gun is irreparably split.
The best solution would be automatic profile switching when aiming and showing less of the gun when not ( what was achieved via console editing of the fov in doom3 with the old drivers, the camera was pulled back). Another solution would be to only show the weapon when using iron sights and hide it at all other times, which should be combined with automatic profile changing. For me, this is the most realistic method, as it gives you better depth and convergence during normal play and it is pretty hard to run and aim precisely (weapon on shoulder) in real life.
Another thing I have noticed with Nvidia, opposed to iz3d is that after a certain point in the scene there is no convergence, only separation (as is in real life, after a certain distance you can't distinguish which object is closer), this leads to more ghosting and less pop-out of distant objects, but makes for greater depth. I guess this is achieved by calculating the distance between the closest and farthest object.
@android78
It would be interesting to see a comparison of both rendering methods. I think I'll give this paper a detailed read :)

p.s:
iz3d supports assymetric rendering, does this translate to better (correct) viewing, as is suggested in this paper, or is this someting else completely?
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

So I was having a lot of problems with Bioshock actually, more than just the fog. Gonna put it on hold for now and try some other titles. Anyway, I added a mono mode that has better compatibility. In theory, it should work with any DX9 game. What it does is handle the aspect ratio conversion and does the pre-warping. I could also do 2DOF tracking (mouse emulation) but its not in there yet. Can also alter the FOV, but its better to do this in game. So while its not stereo, it at least broadens compatibility to a lot more games.

Here is Bioshock in 2D mode with Rift output, in game option to 100 degree FOV.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by brantlew »

I think 2D is an important mode as long as you are retaining the original frame-rate. The 2D mode doesn't require two-pass rendering does it?
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

The 2D mode is pretty cheap. It just needs 2 simple texture copies and a run through the pixel shader. I haven't benchmarked but I can't imagine this costing much.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by brantlew »

Sounds good. Even though the Rift is low-res, a backtop system can still bog down with high quality settings and stereoscopic rendering so it will be great to have the option to go to 2D higher frame-rates.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Dom »

Hey Cybereality, you sure are a hard worker man. I think your doing a wonderful thing and are very smart.

So since your working on a driver, I wanted to ask you and wondering if in therory that you can project your DIY autostereo project into your driver. Technically you don't need a sheet to block those lines. You could interfere the pattern to hold static black subsets on a 2d panel for left right view eh? I think so. Like to test could'nt you just load a pattern you have in desktop then transparent slide, block it over the source image?

Could definitaly make your driver more popular to those people with 2d panels also that you don't need to print them. And for compatabily just have a few differnt sub sets. Maybe I could help with some of the math. Let me know, thanks man.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

Well the driver already supports vertical interleave. So it could be used with a parallax barrier. However, the barrier itself still needs to be physically printed and attached to the monitor. Its not possible to emulate this in software if that's what your asking about. That doesn't really make much sense.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

Got DiRT2 almost working. Looks really good in first-person mode (no car) but the car is a little strange. Looks OK in third-person mode with low depth. Also, there are problems with the shadows (must set on very low). But its playable if you tweak it.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

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cybereality wrote:Well the driver already supports vertical interleave. So it could be used with a parallax barrier. However, the barrier itself still needs to be physically printed and attached to the monitor. Its not possible to emulate this in software if that's what your asking about. That doesn't really make much sense.
Yeah I thought the same thing and I am not for certain but with physically having a barrier sheet all your doing is blocking lines of pixels, one side the left eye and one side for the right eye. Those lines are pure black that totally block out whole lines like interleave except interleave does not show total black lines that are blocked out and are working together to switch between those left and right lines, I think. For some reason I though that with a parallax barrier it would just do static black hold without any interleave switching. Or is interleave just a static left right hold pattern too.

If you had the black lines barrier in software that mimicked the physical sheet using interleave and barrier cover it might work. Would there he a herz issue? I don't want to keep pusing this idea but it does seem to me like it would work.

Like would'nt turning off or making the lines on the actual pixels work as a barrier. Or have them switching along with interleave on black or off. By a slide feature if this does work is that it would make the situation a whole lot easier by being able to slide the software barrier to fit your screen pixel pitch right.

I don't really know but I just had to tell you.

Also I seen that you could put text into directx, so I was wondering if you could put a software parallax barrier like the text except black lines. Then run interleave but I guess they would have to be both switching at 60hz, unless they are static always on.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

I think you are mis-understanding how parallax barriers work. What they do is block certain pixels from each eye. So your left eye will see (for example) only the odd columns and your right eye will see the even columns of pixels. Its a passive technology, so the sheet can be as simple as transparency paper with black vertical lines printed on it. In the case of professional parallax barriers (like the 3DS) they use a second LCD screen to show the barrier, but its still a static image. Not flicker, it has nothing to do with page-flipping. Even so, its a physical property of the monitor. Please do a google search of parallax barriers, or even watch my video on YouTube and I think it will make more sense.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Dom »

Thanks for listing Cybereality, I'll check out some of those more specific topics on parallax barriers.

BTW did you get a copy of Diablo3? If not I can pick you up a copy or give you a cd key.

Sorry if I messed up your thinking patterns :P
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Namielus »

Cybereality,

Is this list correct so far?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... BZnc#gid=0
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

I was having problems with Bioshock so you can take that off the list. Also need to work more on the tracking support for a bunch of games. Mouse emulation should work across the board, but the roll stuff was only working in Source engine games so far (testing in L4D and HL2).
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Namielus »

Cant I add your mail to the allow list? So you can edit it yourself?
Otherwise, all non-source engines should be changed from tracking to mouse-emulation?

BTW;
3D/FOV/Warp/Tracking has been confirmed for outerra, by one of their staff
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

@Namielus: My email is "cybereality@gmail.com"

Also, got AaaaaAAAAAAA!!!!! working:
AaaaaAAAA.jpg
Was working on ArmaII for a bit but it was problematic. Will keep trying.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Namielus »

AaaaaAAAAAAA!!!!! looks crazy, what an impossibly hard name tho.. hahah!
I added your email to those allowed to edit, if you can test it out.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

The full name is actually "AaaaaAAaaaAAAaaAAAAaAAAAA!!! -- A Reckless Disregard for Gravity", kind of a ridiculous name but the game is great. Its about as close to what we have that's similar to the VR games that were shown in the LawnmowerMan movie. If you guys haven't tried this game you're gonna love it when you get your Rift. Its cheap too.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Namielus »

Rift? Im not getting that, way too expensive and the resolution is too low.
Waiting until its below 7 dollars and supports 8K on each eye.
Im going to overclock my virtual boy meanwhile ok?
And my powerglove will suffice for hand tracking. 8-)

Anyways, I would appreciate it if you could just try and see if you got the permission to edit the spreadsheet.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

Ok, I updated the doc a bit.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Namielus »

Thanks,
Looks good.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Dycus »

Been looking at all these screenshot through a Rift prototype I just finished. In all of them, I'm unable to focus on anything close. (I think that's an eye distance issue? I haven't been in the VR scene for very long.) On MirrorsEgde2, for example, the background buildings are fine, but the two boxes in front and the satellite dish are doubled. I can't move my eyes far enough apart to focus on them.

On Bioshock2, the warping seems just about perfect, though!
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Fredz »

Man I'm sold ! Thanks very much Cyber !

I just received my UltraOptix 7X lenses and I've tried them with several warped screenshots I found on this forum but I was like, meh, is it supposed to be immersive ? The best effect I experienced was with the image made by John Carmack (not a big surprise there) with which I had somewhat a sense of immersion, with that pillar on the right side of the screen.

But then I launched your DIY Stereo 3D Driver (Test 5) video and it was the thing, I was there, it was even kind of frightening seeing all these zombies coming to me and being shot. I also felt the other guys being with me and the gun having some kind of reality too. And that was without head tracking, I can't imagine how better it's going to be with it. Now I just need to buy a Hillcrest or a Sparkfun just for testing...

The warping wasn't yet implemented and there were some 3D rendering glitches, but it didn't distract much from the experience, my mates just seemed a bit thiner than they should be.

I've tested that on the 5.6" display of my old Fujitsu UMPC with a ridiculous 1024x600 resolution, holding it and the magnifiers in my hands while watching the video. The very low resolution was very apparent when I was looking at the screenshots, but the time I launched the video I didn't even think about the resolution.

So great job Cyber, keep up the good work !

@Namielus : you could also add Doom 4 to your list since John Carmack said he would support the Rift. See : http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/8/3 ... culus-rift
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Fredz »

Dycus wrote:Been looking at all these screenshot through a Rift prototype I just finished. In all of them, I'm unable to focus on anything close.
You should try that video I'm talking about in my previous post. My configuration should be quite different from the Rift but that's the content that produced the best result for me.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Namielus »

thanks fredz, done.
Does anybody know if Doom 4 is in alpha, beta or what?
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Dycus »

Fredz wrote:
Dycus wrote:Been looking at all these screenshot through a Rift prototype I just finished. In all of them, I'm unable to focus on anything close.
You should try that video I'm talking about in my previous post. My configuration should be quite different from the Rift but that's the content that produced the best result for me.
Ooh, that looks pretty good! The right camera flashes a lot whenever the gun is being fired, but that's probably just some kind of rendering bug.

It just needs to be tweaked a little, but everybody will have to do that, of course. That video looks great.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

@Dycus: There are probably a few reasons the Mirror's Edge shot didn't look correct. One, there is no convergence control (yet) so its likely the images do not match up optimally for the specific overlap of the Rift. Secondly the high depth could just be better suited for a monitor. Hopefully I can get convergence working good relatively soon (I had some limited success in L4D but I will keep trying).

@Fredz: I'm glad you're hyped about this project, I know I am.

Also, in the next day or two I will take a better video that has all the recent additions (like the warping) so Dycus or Palmer can test on the Rift. Thanks.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by jhouff »

Greeting Cyber!

I've been following your work and I'm so very excited about the progress! I was curious if you think the driver will be availible when the Rift launches in December. Also I know it is early but do you have any idea how much it may cost?

Again thanks so much for working on this for the Rift community! :D
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by OmniAtlas »

Hi Cyber,

I was wondering if you could build in support with your driver for MS Flight Sim X, or FSX (not the latest one by MS, that one is rubbish and now forgotten). There is a whole bunch of flight simmers over at avsim.com and we will be looking forward to using FSX with the rift.

Thanks.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by cybereality »

@jhouff: Yes, I will have something ready for when the Rift launches. Probably in November. Not sure the price yet, but probably under $50.

@OmniAtlas: I can look into FSX support, I haven't tested that yet.
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by jhouff »

Thanks for the response Cyber! That's very exviting information, can't wait!

Also is there anything someone like myself can do to help? Donations, Testing ect? I have two Sont HMZ-T1s at my disposal and would love to help anyway I can!

I also have a background in Videography and Graphic Arts if you need anything done like Logos, Trailers ect. I understand this is all early but again, I would love to help!

Thanks again Cyber! :P
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Re: Cyber's DIY Stereo Driver [Work Log]

Post by Costen »

Hi Cyber,

Your work is going to make the rift so much more enjoyable for the non developers like me. Earlier you were asking about game suggestions so I though t I would mention some. A horror game would be great like Amnesia or Slenderman. I also like the idea of being able to look around the cock pit, for this I believe Flight sim and Shift would be great games to use with the rift.

I dont have any game engine knowledge so I apologise if these suggestions are out of line.

Thanks again
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