Full res, half res, side by side, top/bottom, 2d plus depth, frame packing, checkerboard...
I'm still a little confused about all the different terms, advantages, disadvantages, compatibilities and similar. I'm aware that HDMI 1.4a has largely fixed most of the problems (by what I hear) but it's the stuff which was out BEFORE 1.4 that i'm curious about.. will 100% of Bluray 3D discs work with 100% of HDMI 1.4 tv's or was there any "side by side" and similar hardcoded content for the pre 1.4 generation? Is there any way to use new content/Blurays with those oddball 3d modes in samsung and mitsubishi projection TV's (apparently incompatible with each other) that were out in the 1.3 era with modern content? Can a computer play to those projection TV HDMI 1.3 modes? Etc etc.
There's probably some article out there on the web telling me everything I want to know but it's buried somewhere... many articles even two years old are no longer as relevant since things were still changing at that time and I don't fully understand what changed.
Case in point - i'm wondering if those HDMI 1.3 3D projection HDTV's are alot cheaper now used since they aren't as compatible... but will they work as computer displays, or for a PS3 or Xbox 360...
Understanding 3d formats/compatibility better?
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hifidelitygaming
- One Eyed Hopeful
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:56 am
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cybereality
- 3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
- Posts: 11407
- Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Re: Understanding 3d formats/compatibility better?
There is no one guide that covers everything. Really your best bet is to search this forum for any particular question you have, there is a lot of content buried here.
I will give a sort explanation though. HDMI 1.4a is the current standard. All 3D Blu-Ray players, PS3 games, 3D HDTVs (2010 or newer), and some projectors now support this standard. It basically a special full resolution over/under image at either 1080P 24Hz or 720P 60Hz. While this is great for Blu-Ray and console games, it also limited PC gaming to 720P when most gamers are used to 1080P and beyond. However it is *the*standard, so we have to live with what we have. Probably by next year devices will be able to support the full 1080P 60Hz in 3D.
Similarly there is a MVC codec used to encode 3D Blu-Ray movies. This has nothing to do with HDMI 1.4a, two different things. MVC is a type of compression (like H.264 or MPEG). HDMI 1.4a is a transmission protocol. However almost all 3D Blu-Ray players (PS3 etc.) support HDMI 1.4a exclusively, so they go hand in hand.
Before this there was 3D-Ready, which primarily refereed to DLP rear projection TVs that started showing up in the mid 2000's. The format they used was checkerboard. There was not a lot of device that support this standard, but you could use it with PCs and, more recently, a few Blu-Ray players. These are still well supported by 3D drivers on the PC, video players, etc. So if you primarily want to game, this is not a bad solution. Nvidia still supports the Mitsubishi TVs (not generic anymore I don't think) and IZ3D and DDD both have checkerboard modes. You can also output checkerboard from Blu-Ray programs like Power DVD. So, in some ways, support can be as good or better than HDMI 1.4a. In others ways, not as much, since PS3, for example, won't work. Personally, I would not invest money in a dead/dying standard, but currently support is not bad.
Even earlier than this (before HD) there were only really CRT TVs, and those actually all pretty much worked with 3D. Thats the funny part. Back in the late 90's, early 2000's basically every TV was 3D capable. All people needed to do was spend $100 on a pair of 3D glasses and they were good to go. Even some specific projectors could do 3D (though this wasn't even advertised). They had an older standard of 3D DVDs called field-sequential, often labeled HQFS (high quality field-sequential). There were specialized DVD players for this format, and also PCs could be used. For gaming it was basically restricted to using the Nvidia drivers with an Nvidia card. It wasn't until later that IZ3D and DDD came onto the scene. Some consider this the heyday of 3D PC gaming, since the barrier for entry was so low. Now you need usually need to spend $500 or more for a setup, without even seeing if its any good. Back then it only cost $100 or less, and the effect was just as amazing (some even say better, but lets not get into that). But overall we are much better off now, and the technology and software has certainly matured a lot.
I will give a sort explanation though. HDMI 1.4a is the current standard. All 3D Blu-Ray players, PS3 games, 3D HDTVs (2010 or newer), and some projectors now support this standard. It basically a special full resolution over/under image at either 1080P 24Hz or 720P 60Hz. While this is great for Blu-Ray and console games, it also limited PC gaming to 720P when most gamers are used to 1080P and beyond. However it is *the*standard, so we have to live with what we have. Probably by next year devices will be able to support the full 1080P 60Hz in 3D.
Similarly there is a MVC codec used to encode 3D Blu-Ray movies. This has nothing to do with HDMI 1.4a, two different things. MVC is a type of compression (like H.264 or MPEG). HDMI 1.4a is a transmission protocol. However almost all 3D Blu-Ray players (PS3 etc.) support HDMI 1.4a exclusively, so they go hand in hand.
Before this there was 3D-Ready, which primarily refereed to DLP rear projection TVs that started showing up in the mid 2000's. The format they used was checkerboard. There was not a lot of device that support this standard, but you could use it with PCs and, more recently, a few Blu-Ray players. These are still well supported by 3D drivers on the PC, video players, etc. So if you primarily want to game, this is not a bad solution. Nvidia still supports the Mitsubishi TVs (not generic anymore I don't think) and IZ3D and DDD both have checkerboard modes. You can also output checkerboard from Blu-Ray programs like Power DVD. So, in some ways, support can be as good or better than HDMI 1.4a. In others ways, not as much, since PS3, for example, won't work. Personally, I would not invest money in a dead/dying standard, but currently support is not bad.
Even earlier than this (before HD) there were only really CRT TVs, and those actually all pretty much worked with 3D. Thats the funny part. Back in the late 90's, early 2000's basically every TV was 3D capable. All people needed to do was spend $100 on a pair of 3D glasses and they were good to go. Even some specific projectors could do 3D (though this wasn't even advertised). They had an older standard of 3D DVDs called field-sequential, often labeled HQFS (high quality field-sequential). There were specialized DVD players for this format, and also PCs could be used. For gaming it was basically restricted to using the Nvidia drivers with an Nvidia card. It wasn't until later that IZ3D and DDD came onto the scene. Some consider this the heyday of 3D PC gaming, since the barrier for entry was so low. Now you need usually need to spend $500 or more for a setup, without even seeing if its any good. Back then it only cost $100 or less, and the effect was just as amazing (some even say better, but lets not get into that). But overall we are much better off now, and the technology and software has certainly matured a lot.
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hcforde
- One Eyed Hopeful
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 9:44 am
Re: Understanding 3d formats/compatibility better?
Old post but anyway.....
Yeah, finding all you need to know about S3D in one place is hard to find. Not even Wikipedia makes it easy. The good thing about this is that that means the segment is vibrant and constantly moving towards something better. In the mean time it does seem that we have taken a temporary step back with HDMI 1.4. AMD, however, has the ability to do 120Hz 1080P over HDMI 1.4 so I guess it just needs to have a device that will accept a 120HZ 1080P signal under the HDMI 1.4 protocol. Because of the HDMI issues listed above, I STOPPED looking at 120HZ monitors(they tie you into Nvidia or AMD) to purchase, and bought a 120HZ 3d ready projector with a separate Video processor. If you are not aware of what the video processor (VP3D1 or 3D-XL)does, 'hifidelitygaming' they accept a HDMI 1.4 signal and convert it to a 1.3 signal. This way I can game on a bigger screen via HDMI 1.3 and when I want to see a 3D bluray just run it through the converter to the projector. My thinking basically was to have a pure HDMI 1.3 and a pure HDMI 1.4 device rather than have them integrated in the same unit and possibly run into problems.
I just decided on and purchased the projector & video processor a couple of days ago so I have not fired it up yet. I also have a Denon receiver that will pass through HDMI 1.3 & 1.4 signals along with a panasonic 3D player. I am currently using 2GB eyefinity6 5870 video cards so a little tweeking may be needed.
Yeah, finding all you need to know about S3D in one place is hard to find. Not even Wikipedia makes it easy. The good thing about this is that that means the segment is vibrant and constantly moving towards something better. In the mean time it does seem that we have taken a temporary step back with HDMI 1.4. AMD, however, has the ability to do 120Hz 1080P over HDMI 1.4 so I guess it just needs to have a device that will accept a 120HZ 1080P signal under the HDMI 1.4 protocol. Because of the HDMI issues listed above, I STOPPED looking at 120HZ monitors(they tie you into Nvidia or AMD) to purchase, and bought a 120HZ 3d ready projector with a separate Video processor. If you are not aware of what the video processor (VP3D1 or 3D-XL)does, 'hifidelitygaming' they accept a HDMI 1.4 signal and convert it to a 1.3 signal. This way I can game on a bigger screen via HDMI 1.3 and when I want to see a 3D bluray just run it through the converter to the projector. My thinking basically was to have a pure HDMI 1.3 and a pure HDMI 1.4 device rather than have them integrated in the same unit and possibly run into problems.
I just decided on and purchased the projector & video processor a couple of days ago so I have not fired it up yet. I also have a Denon receiver that will pass through HDMI 1.3 & 1.4 signals along with a panasonic 3D player. I am currently using 2GB eyefinity6 5870 video cards so a little tweeking may be needed.