Review of the 23″ Planar SA2311W 3D Vision-ready LCD Monitor

[cybereality]

Just found this over at the 3dvision-blog:
http://3dvision-blog.com/review-of-the- ... d-monitor/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems to have nearly no ghosting, not even at the top of screen like with other Nvidia monitors. I got to say, I think I am going to get it. It looks really good.

[Chiefwinston]

Yeah that does look real nice.

cheers everyone

[Fredz]

Don't be fooled by the review, it has less ghosting than other LCD monitors as Bloody said - which has been the case for any new monitor he's reviewed - but it's still a LCD screen and it does have a fair amount of ghosting when you display the DDD ghosting test image.

[cybereality]

Compared to what I have seen, that is practically no ghosting. Keep in mind, that is a worst case scenario (white on black). Just look at the center L/R square. It is almost imperceptible to notice the "R" on the "L" side or vice-versa (you can see it if you *really* look, but thats not the point). In a normal game scenario I would think the ghosting would be a non-issue. It may be there, but you are not likely to notice (just like there may be ghosting at the RealD theaters, but no one ever notices). I mean, it certainly looks good enough for me to drop the $500 on it (unless you can show me a monitor that does better...).

Anyway, here is what I am dealing with now using the Zalman:

Zalman_Ghosting.jpg

As you can see it doesn't look so hot compared to this planar model. Now, I don't want to knock the Zalman, it can look good. For example, in bright colored games (like Mirror's Edge, UT2004) there is usually not that much ghosting at all. But in very dark games (Metro2033) the ghosting can be very distracting and diminish the experience. I have been somewhat hesitant to buy into the whole 120Hz LCDs due to the bad ghosting on the top 15% of the screen (which nearly everyone on the Nvidia forums complains about). It appears that Planar has solved this problem, making it the ultimate 120Hz display available. Of course ghosting isn't 0%, that is probably impossible unless you have an HMD, or some totally new method of stereoscopy (holographics, etc.). Any current glasses-based tech is going to have some ghosting no matter what, so its just about getting it to an acceptable level. This Planar model looks like a very acceptable level.

[Fredz]

Yes, this monitor is the best without a question in regard to ghosting compared to other 120 Hz LCD monitors, but it's still very far from what you can get from a Plasma TV or a DLP system (TV or projector). And even with Plasma solutions you can easily find people talking about the annoying ghosting in some games or videos. I'm even not sure that it fares better than a good CRT monitor, but it's hard to tell from this ghosting test.

It seems the tweaking of the display parameters caused the ghosting to be inversed, which makes the picture look good with a ghosting test like the DDD one, but I'm really not sure that it would really look that good when viewing real animated content like games or videos.

If you compare the shots of this display with yours you can also see that the Planar ones are a lot darker, which may be the reason why we don't see ghosting in the middle of the screen, the blacks are possibly burned.

And if you look carefully at the corners you'll see that they are even darker, which could explain the low ghosting on the small R and L circles. In the only corner that is not darker (lower left of the right image) you can see that the ghosting is very apparent.

I guess the best way to know if it's really better than your polarized monitor ghosting-wise would be to have better pictures taken or test it live, but buying it by only basing your choice on this review would be a mistake IMO.

[cybereality]

Well I was not considering plasma or DLP for comparison since they do not produce plasma/DLP computer monitors. I am not interested in an HDTV or projector at this point in time. I am comparing to PC monitors, namely other 120Hz LCDs (with known, wide-spread ghosting issues), Zalman (which you see above), and iz3D (which is haunted by ghosts!). Its true that the image is dark, which may mask the ghosting somewhat. Even so, it looks pretty damn good for LCD. Not sure if this Planar is any better than CRT, hard to judge from just 3 images. But if I had to make a call, I would say it was competitive. Certainly CRT still suffered from some ghosting as well. And even if it didn't, I'm not interested in having a big honkin' CRT on my desk in the year 2011.

[tritosine5G]

this is a rip off compared to a high end crt

[DmitryKo]

Anyway, here is what I am dealing with now using the Zalman

Holy cow! I've been waiting for an AMD/ATI compatible, quality stereoscopic monitor since 2008, and now it seems I have to skip another generation or two...

[OFFTOPIC]
Looks like plasma displays are still the best in regard to ghosting; now these PRs from Panasonic touting improved A-IPS TV panels start to make sense:

Panasonic Corporation has developed 32 and 37 inch IPS Alpha LCD panels with LED backlight that boast the industry's fastest 2 ms super high-speed scanning to deliver high-quality full high definition (HD) 3D video. ... to produce high-quality 3D images up to Panasonic's standard in par with the quality of plasma panels, crosstalk (double imaging) has to be reduced ... Panasonic has produced LCD panels with crosstalk almost completely reduced and a solid black picture that maintains a broad gradation display, similar to its plasma panels.
...

<Key Features of the New Panel>
1. New super high-speed 3D LCD scanning (Advanced Pre-Charged Driving) technology
Crosstalk reduction in LCD panels was considered difficult in principle because they use a line-at-a-time driving method, whereas PDPs use a frame-at-a-time driving method. Using the newly-developed super high-speed 3D LCD scanning technology, however, Panasonic has achieved a super scanning speed of 2 ms, the fastest in the industry. Further, this technology minimizes the overlap of left and right images to produce natural 3D video.

2. New 3D high-speed response panel
Panasonic has accelerated the LCD panel's response speed twice as fast as the previous models by thinning the liquid crystal layer and using a newly developed high-fluidity liquid crystal material. Because IPS panels feature fast response time regardless of panel temperature or color gradation, the new 3D IPS panels can deliver high-definition 3D video stably immediately after switched on.

In addition to the above technologies, the new 3D IPS LCD panels also use Panasonic's newly-developed 3D signal processing algorithm to reduce crosstalk according to the video data scanned beforehand and reproduce smooth images from 24 Hz video source such as movies, thus achieving realistic 3D video with rich texture.

There's a little feeling of deja-vu, as we've been told about these "new luquid crystall materials" before and it doesn't seem it worked out the last tuime And even they have really brought the crostallk down to plasma levels, I can't imagine using a 32"-42" TV set as a computer monitor; to pity Panasonic has quit the computer monitor business (except for professional models), so the chances for a 24-27" 120 Hz computer monitor with the same panel technology are indeed slim.

Seems like our only hope is AU Optronics, who recently bought FED assets from Sony; hopefully someday they will be able to come with proper computer monitor panels based on FED...
[/OFFTOPIC]

[Fredz]

Looks like plasma displays are still the best in regard to ghosting

Not really compared to DLP TVs or projectors :

now these PRs from Panasonic touting improved A-IPS TV panels start to make sense: [...] There's a little feeling of deja-vu, as we've been told about these "new luquid crystall materials" before and it doesn't seem it worked out the last tuime

Sony is also working on new technologies to reduce ghosting on LCD displays, aka "Hybrid FPA" :
http://www.hdtvreview.com/news/2010/12/ ... echnology/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And even they have really brought the crostallk down to plasma levels, I can't imagine using a 32"-42" TV set as a computer monitor;

You should try, I've used a 32" 1080p LCD TV as a monitor for over a year and it was really nice compared to my previous 19" monitor, especially when playing FPS games.

Seems like our only hope is AU Optronics, who recently bought FED assets from Sony; hopefully someday they will be able to come with proper computer monitor panels based on FED...

Yes that would be really great, I've been waiting for SED/FED technology for so long that I lost all hope to see it come on the market one day. We'll see if they are able to produce something with this but they'd have to reduce the ghosting before, because there's no chance I'm gonna buy a new monitor with no better ghosting levels than CRT monitors. That's also why I won't buy a 3D LCD monitor in a forseable future either...

[Likay]

That dlp-image is too dark and hos too low contrast to be valuable. If there's ghosting it's too dark to see it.
Nonethless: I also think dlp is king regarding ghosting rejection to some degree. At equal or just tad lower is probably the dual pj's.

[Fredz]

You're not fair to me Likay...

Actually I still think it's comparable since the illumination of the images for both displays is quite equivalent, but it may not be comparable to other technologies with photos taken with more light.

Anyway here is a better ghosting test for DLP that'll be more convincing (with the Acer H5360 DLP projector) :



Is it bright enough for you ?

As a comparison the same guy took this photo of the Samsung 2233RZ LCD monitor in similar conditions :

[Likay]

Fine!
About the samsung i've seen it and it's quite the worst experience i had for 3d. But it doubled both on the higher as well as lower edge of screen. Maybe 1/3 showed somewhat usable 3d... Lcd's aren't really there yet but the planarlcd come some way closer though.

[Fredz]

As for dual polarized projection, from the ghosting tests I saw it seems to be somewhat equivalent to Plasmas or a little bit lower but I can't find the screenshots I saw on the Web.

I'd say DLP is still the king in this field without much discussion, if I had to make a list this would be it :
- DLP TVs and projectors ;
- Panasonic Plasma TVs ;
- other Plasma TVs (Samsung) ;
- dual-projectors with Infitech filters and glasses ;
- dual LCD projectors with polarization ;
- polarized interlaced TVs (LG) ;
- Planar LCD monitor - Polarized monitors - CRT monitors (can't see which one is really the best) ;
- LCD TVs (Sony's ones) ;
- LCD monitors and TVs (Samsung, LG, etc.).

For my next purchase there is no way I'll buy something with no better ghosting than CRT monitors.

[Likay]

Just a tiny note: A very common "mistake" for dual projectors is using circular polarization. It's not only more expensive, it ghost twice as much no matter how good the filters are claimed to be. Of course too bad linear polarizers or screen shouldn't be used either.

[DmitryKo]

Not really compared to DLP TVs or projectors

Fair, but I'm talking about computer monitors (or similarily sized TVs); projectors and RPTVs are too big for that.

Sony is also working on new technologies to reduce ghosting on LCD displays, aka "Hybrid FPA"

I've seen this PR before http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but I'm less interested in PVA panels; OTOH, 120 Hz IPS panel would make a killer computer monitor for both 2D and 3D, if crosstalk is really eliminated.

I've used a 32" 1080p LCD TV as a monitor for over a year and it was really nice compared to my previous 19" monitor, especially when playing FPS games.

I shall see the Viera 3D LCD in person to verify their claims of reduced crosstalk, but even then, the 720p60 limit of current HDMI 3D implementations still stays.

they'd have to reduce the ghosting before, because there's no chance I'm gonna buy a new monitor with no better ghosting levels than CRT monitors

FED/SED pixels are as fast as in CRTs, so they should be essentially crosstalk-free, that's the point.

[Fredz]

FED/SED pixels are as fast as in CRTs, so they should be essentially crosstalk-free, that's the point.

CRTs are not crosstalk-free, they are in the last third of the list in relation to ghosting. Maybe if FED (SED is dead) were using P43 phosphors the situation could be better, but CRTs were mostly using P22 phosphors and they exhibited quite a lot of ghosting with green and blue colors. I hope they are going to choose the right type of phosphors if they intend to produce 3D FED displays.

[DmitryKo]

AFAIK, P43 is a monochrome yellow-green phosphor, there are some drawbacks in using it with actual TV displays.

At least, if there are any such problems with FEDs (which we don't know), they seem to be minor and solvable - unlike 120 Hz LCDs as it seems.

[tritosine5G]

bros you want LED DLP + rear projection. 720p is enough with DLP. It's the best 720p there is. ^^

And theres cheap pol. preserving rp fabric too, noone stops you if you want time parallel.

[Fredz]

AFAIK, P43 is a monochrome yellow-green phosphor, there are some drawbacks in using it with actual TV displays.

The P22 phosphors are apparently good enough for blue and very good for red, hence the "Red eye" shutterglasses method. The P43 phosphors would be used for green since they have a fast decay time, a lot better than the P22 green. Even if P43 is a bit yellowish and the P22 offer deeper green, the P43 is what is used for green in the Electrohome 8500 projectors for CAVE systems.

At least, if there are any such problems with FEDs (which we don't know), they seem to be minor and solvable - unlike 120 Hz LCDs as it seems.

I don't know which type of phosphors they are currently using for FED displays or if they've even settled on one particular type, but they've already tried P22 in the past for at least one prototype :
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/2 ... 410958.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, before they find a solution to the ghosting problem I'd like them to show us that it's not vaporware like the SED.

[cybereality]

Hey, you guys are forgetting about HMDs. They have literally *NO* ghosting. 0%. Nothing else can touch that.

But seriously, you guys can't live in the past. I don't know about you, but I certainly am not interested in gaming for the rest of my life on some antique vintage computer monitor. I mean, that setup might even give slightly better image quality than some modern solutions, but not by much. Certainly not by enough to completely write-off current gen tech. Just get something now that is of acceptable quality, and upgrade whenever that next thing comes out (in 2-3 years, or whatever). If any major advancements were coming this year I assume they would have been shown at CES. So you want to wait another year to maybe hope something new comes out? Can't live like that, you'll never buy anything. Gotta stick with the times. For me, this Planar looks of acceptable quality. Not perfect, but better than the other options on the market. And thats good enough for me.

[Chiefwinston]

cybereality, will you be going the 3 screen route? The 3 screen arrangements are really quite killer if you ask me.

cheers everyone

[Fredz]

But seriously, you guys can't live in the past. I don't know about you, but I certainly am not interested in gaming for the rest of my life on some antique vintage computer monitor.

Vintage is quite a relative thing, you could also say that shutter glasses are vintage since their core technology hasn't changed much since the eighties.

The only advantage LCD has over other technologies is that it allows small display surfaces and quite thin displays, but considering image quality it's the worse technology available, be it in 2D or in 3D.

I mean, that setup might even give slightly better image quality than some modern solutions, but not by much. Certainly not by enough to completely write-off current gen tech.

FED requires a lot less power than a LCD system, the 36" prototype from Sony consumed only 14W on bright scenes where LCD screens of similar size consume more than 100W. Other advantages of SED displays (which are inherited from CRTs) are high contrast ratios (20,000:1 vs 950:1 for the Planar), deep blacks (<0.01cd/m2 vs 0.28 cd/m2 for the Planar), wide viewing angles and very fast response times (<1ms vs 2ms for the Planar). I wouldn't call it a technology of the past.

Just get something now that is of acceptable quality, and upgrade whenever that next thing comes out (in 2-3 years, or whatever). If any major advancements were coming this year I assume they would have been shown at CES.

Sure, it'll take time (if it goes out at all) and LCD monitors are still the only solution if you don't have enough space on your desk. But it has been announced last november that AU Optronics will begin volume production in Q4 2011 for 20", 26" and 32" FED panels for broadcast and medical purposes mainly, so we'll see : http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTPU00177420091022" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tritosine5G]

panasonic priced their 42" ish rebadged plasma TV ~ 2800 dollars, unnlikely 30+ LCD will be much cheaper, plus they talk about improved motion resolution that means hold time is less than 4 mS.

[cybereality]

Please show me a 24" FED (or SED or whatever) 3D PC monitor I can buy today for $500... Otherwise this is just vaporware. We might as well be talking about holographic projection. I mean, if FED was so great quality why would Sony abandon it and sell their patents to AUO? Clearly there is some reason it is not market viable. Maybe its too expensive, I don't know. Seems AUO is saying they might have professional level units for sale in 2012. How much longer would we have to wait for a consumer-level mass-produced product that could be sold for $500? This stuff is years away, if it ever even materializes. I don't see how this is relevant to a product that is available today. Imagine if this were a review of the Nvidia GTX 580. Then someone comes in and says: "No, the GTX 580 sucks. I hear rumors that Nvidia will bring out a GTX 880 in 2013 that will blow this away. You can get 325fps in Crysis while running Nvidia 3D Vision Surround." That might even happen, but it has no relevance whatsoever on the market today.

[PalmerTech]

I tend to agree with the sentiment. I am looking for a good 3D monitor too (I love my IZ3D for what it is, and with them going for under $130 on eBay, it might be worth it to people new to 3D!), but this Planar is looking pretty great.

I know that I could use some old CRT, but then I have a giant box on my desk with iffy driver support. Why do that when I can have a large screened, bright, quiet (CRTs do put out some high pitched noise) and well supported monitor that actually fits on my desk? If I were to have a big giant box, I would make a DIY Planar setup with a half mirror and 2 monitors, since that is better quality than either of the above solutions.

I like HMDs, but I need a monitor, too. I want a projector or a large DLP TV, as well, but nowhere to put it.

[tritosine5G]

I found a new high tech, dark finish rear projection material. Supposed to be retroreflective, high tech lens stuff.

A 55" inch RP screen should be 6 times as bright than 100" white...


Im convinced about the short term future, the best you can do is RP screen plus DLP. Slim displays suck. HMD is no comfy , obsolete tech, sucks. But this thing is so flexible, its hard to put into words. You can project INTO the room from outside for example.

DLP light engine should be, and can be rebuilt with better light blocking inside.

[cybereality]

Yeah, DLP is great quality. No one is debating that. The problem is that they do not make 24" DLP computer monitors that you can put on your desk.

[tritosine5G]

I think you can manage the desk thing with RP screen and mirror. It rejects ambient light. Quality with good screen will be very very good and very bright .

google for 3M vikuiti projection screen. Smokin screen rejects ambient light better than an LCD TV. It's time for this tech for the masses along with good DLP picoprojection 3d. This is the future. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EOw5sEF ... re=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw0fM5L- ... re=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXs1KQKi ... re=related[/youtube]

[cybereality]

In the last video, how does that work? Is that some special type of glass? How is it that the image is opaque? I don't get it.

[tritosine5G]

The third Is just a foil over that acrylic sheet. Might be some noname RP foil.

In particular the 3m vikuiti material is interesting, that's high tech: its microlens suspended in black filling material and uber expensive.

Recently in autostereo displays I saw they used it again and its said to be the best consumer autostereo attempt yet .

[Likay]

In the last video, how does that work? Is that some special type of glass? How is it that the image is opaque? I don't get it.

It's not entirely opaque. The Da-Lite virtual black material is black as well (besides polarization preserving). It's like a black rubbercloth and when shining light on one side the image is also visible/emitted off the other. It's actually easier to understand that dark surfaces works as rp-screens than transparent ones. You need to add some kind of structure (fresnels etc) that absorbs the light and emitts it from the surface. Imagine projection on a pure glassplate to understand the principle. Nonethless interesting!

[Chiefwinston]

That rear projection set-up is interesting. It appears to suffer from the same projector solution problems: hot spot, low contrast, very low black levels. Don't get me wrong its nice looking technology. But far from current high end plasma imaging. I know its hard to show diplay tech without actually being their. I just don't see it as a step forward. Maybe I'm missing something?

cheers everyone

[tritosine5G]

none of that applies to 3M vikuiti, just some of those videos were noname screens . Yes polarization preserving RP screens are getting very very cheap also, if you want time parallel...
If you have projectors , why not have many screens, well , yeah.
http://tinyurl.com/6g5br7o" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tritosine5G]

the da lite high power is very high quality glass beaded FP screen with 10 uM spheres. This must be better.

...and rejects ambient light better than an lcd tv!!!