3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Straight press releases and article referrals for review and discussion.
Post Reply
User avatar
metalqueen
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
Posts: 1981
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:31 pm

3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by metalqueen »

HDMI LICENSING, LLC Makes 3D Portion Of HDMI Specification Version 1.4 Available For Public Download

SUNNYVALE, Calif., February 3, 2010 – HDMI Licensing, LLC, the agent responsible for licensing the High-Definition Multimedia Interface® (HDMI®) specification, today announced, on behalf of the HDMI Founders, that it has made the 3D portion of the HDMI Specification Version 1.4 available for public download on the HDMI Web site at http://www.hdmi.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. The purpose of this document is to provide public access to the 3D portion of version 1.4 of the HDMI Specification for those companies and organizations that require access to this portion of the Specification but have not executed an HDMI Adopter Agreement.
The document available for download is extracted from version 1.4 of the HDMI Specification. The HDMI Consortium intends to release a 1.4a version of the HDMI Specification shortly which will include updates to the 3D portion of the Specification. As soon as the 1.4a version of the Specification is published to Adopters, an update to the 3D portion of the document, available for public download, will also be published.

”The HDMI Consortium recognizes the importance of standardized 3D formats for movies, gaming and broadcast content and the need for non-adopter companies and organizations to have access to that portion of the HDMI Specification,” says Steve Venuti, president of HDMI Licensing, LLC. “As the mainstream adoption of 3D is gaining momentum and content providers define and expand their 3D roadmaps, HDMI is ready to support this major market development.”

For more information about the HDMI specification please visit http://www.hdmi.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Image
- Non-profit, non-partisan.
- Features user contributed education sessions, blogs, and content.
- Safe to interact, registration requires formal non-disclosure agreement. Membership list is equally confidential.
- Open to all except press. People can join as individuals or companies.
- People say the industry needs to get together and learn from one another. This is our chance.
User avatar
DmitryKo
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:25 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by DmitryKo »

A brief resume. HDMI 3D revision 1.4 supports the following stereo structures:


* Frame packing - a special top-bottom format that includes a blank space in between sub-frames, in addition to standard Vblank and Hblank
-- supports progressive and interlaced video
-- progressive (full-resolution) frame packing - best for 120 Hz frame sequential displays from Sony, Panasonic etc.
-- interlaced (half-resolution) frame packing -can be used with line-interleaved passive-polarized displays; less than optimal though
* Field alternative - a half-resolution format, supports interlaced video only; can be used with line-inteleaved passive polarized displays, too
-- very similar to interlaced frame packing, except for very minor implementation details; not sure what factors warrant this separate format
* Line alternative - a full-resolution line-interleaved format, best for dual-head passive setups
* Side-by-side (Full) - a full resolution side-by-side format, best for dual-head passive setups, too
* 2D + depth - Philips WOWvx format
* 2D + depth + graphics + graphics depth - Philips WOWvx Declipse format
* Side-by-side (Half) - half-resolution, side-by-side with horizontal sub-sampling
-- 8 possible subsampling combinations - starting sample Even/Odd , starting frame Left/Right , Quincunx samping On/Off
-- includes Real-D format (side-by-side checkerboard)


3D-capable devices should at least support the following mandatory stereo modes:
* frame packing at 1080p @ 23.98/24 Hz (Blu-ray 3D)
* frame packing at 720p @ 50 Hz or 59.94/60 Hz (stereo gaming); may also support both 50 Hz and 59.94/60 Hz
* HDMI Sinks must support both modes; HDMI Sources must support at least one

All other stereo formats and resolutions are optional, may include progressive video resolutions such as SDTV 480p @ 59.94/60 Hz or 576p @50 Hz, and HDTV 1080p @ 50/59.94/60 Hz; interlaced video 480i/576i and 1080i only supports frame packing and field alternative.


Stereo formats NOT included in HDMI 1.4:
* frame alternative (full) - frame packing formats suit frame sequential devices quite well
* checkerboard half-resolution format (TI)
* line alternative (half) (line interleaved) format (VREX, Xpol etc.)
* top-bottom half, half resolution vertical subsampling - will be added in revision 1.4a
* row alternative (half) (column interleaved)


FYI here is how each frame is sampled with in side-by-side half format ( * - sample, O - no sample):

Code: Select all

horizontal samling 

*O*O*O*     O*O*O*O
*O*O*O*     O*O*O*O
*O*O*O*     O*O*O*O
*O*O*O*     O*O*O*O
odd         even

quincunx sampling 

*O*O*O*     O*O*O*O
O*O*O*O     *O*O*O*
*O*O*O*     O*O*O*O
O*O*O*O     *O*O*O*
odd         even
Within each sampling method there can be 4 combinations for two possible starting positions and two stereo L/R frames: even/even, even/odd, odd/even, odd/odd sampling; this gives the total of 8 combinations.


See also:
Re: HDMI 1.4 does support checkerboard and 120 Hz
Common stereoscopic video resolutions and bandwidth

Update: HDMI 3D v1.4a
Last edited by DmitryKo on Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
ssiu
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 8:11 am

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by ssiu »

DmitryKo wrote: Stereo formats NOT included in HDMI 1.4:
* frame alternative (full) - frame packing formats suit frame sequential devices quite well
* checkerboard half-resolution format (TI)
* line alternative (half) (line interleaved) format (VREX, Xpol etc.)
* top-bottom half, half resolution vertical subsampling - will be added in revision 1.4a
* row alternative (half) (column interleaved)
What is the practical implication for someone who wants to connect a computer (not console) to a new HDMI 1.4 3D HDTV and play S3D games? Does that mean current S3D drivers from NVIDIA / iZ3D / TriDef etc. would not work as-is? Does that mean NVIDIA / iZ3D / TriDef etc. must update their drivers to support "frame packing" formats for it to work?
User avatar
DmitryKo
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:25 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by DmitryKo »

ssiu wrote:Does that mean current S3D drivers from NVIDIA / iZ3D / TriDef etc. would not work as-is? Does that mean NVIDIA / iZ3D / TriDef etc. must update their drivers to support "frame packing" formats for it to work?
Sure nothing will work "as is" anymore, since it won't be as simple as sending some specifically arranged data in the active pixel area (checkerboard), or sending some specifically arranged sequence of images (frame sequential).

In order for HDMI 3D displays to work in PC games,
1. graphics card drivers must be updated to support the new control messages and stereo image formats
2. graphics card drivers must provide native support for stereo formats
* 3rd-party stereo drivers and applications will need to implement support for a generic stereo format, graphics card driver will encode the output to the format supported by display device
* the API should probably extend to general support for PC-based stereoscopic solutions like 120 Hz monitors and shutter glasses, DisplayPort frame-sequential stereo, line-interleaved monitors etc.
3. 3rd-party stereo drivers and applications must be updated to use any of these APIs

I guess the this would be best handled with some kind of user-mode driver model or driver plug-in model, however industry-wide solution seems unlikely at this point, as Microsoft is clearly not interested in stereo and Nvidia has clearly shown no desire to support any 3rd party drivers and stereoscopic devices - so the question is, how long would it take ATI, iZ3D, TriDef and (hopefully) S3DGA to sort it all out; we should first see how ATI handles their promise to support 120 Hz frame sequential monitors and 3rd-party active shutter glasses.

(NB. The alternative to implementing generic stereo format in the driver or API is to expose low-level access to the HDMI hardware in the driver; the big downside is that 3rd-party stereo drivers and applications will need to implement full support for HDMI formats and control message protocols, which kind of defeats the real purpose of having drivers which should hide specific hardware implementation details from the application).
ssiu
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 8:11 am

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by ssiu »

Thanks. I want a 3D HDTV that works with "everything" (PS3, computer, etc.) So first I waited impatiently (skipping over the existing "pre-standard" 3D TVs) for standard models, and now I have to wait until there is computer support. Sigh.

(At least I am cautiously optimistic that it is a matter of "when" there will be computer support, not "if".)
Kamus
Two Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:14 pm

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by Kamus »

I hate the guys behind HDMI with passion, it's very clear that they don't have the consumers interests at heart.

Yes, HDMI 1.4 is better than 1.3. But lets be honest here, what's keeping them from giving us even more bandwidth?
it's very physicly possible, we've used optical cables for more than a decade for stuff that never needed it in the first place (DTS and DD) but some how we're still using copper cables for video. (think about it, if we were using those optical cables, we would never, ever need to have to buy different cables when a new interface came out)
Video content has always needed the extra bandwidth, but these guys are playing the carrot on a stick game.
All we need as proof is take a look at display port 1.2 that completely blows away HDMI 1.4 while still using the same display port cables people already have.

HDMI 1.4 has "support" for 4k resolution, there's no way we can do 3d with 4k resolution using HDMI 1.4, and 4k should be just around the corner.

HDMI 1.4 seems a lot like HDMI 1.3 in terms of what 1.3 was supposed to be originally capable off.
User avatar
Dom
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 824
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:30 pm
Contact:

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by Dom »

Hi, This new HDMI 1.4 standard is quite interesting so that basically no other cable willl be used to connect 3d to a 3dtv, whether it is a computer or bluray player. More than that I surely hope there are some alternatives to connect older equipment to a new 3dtv. From what I see there needs to be new adapters like an 1.3 to 1.4 adapter for either compression or just full out 1.4 passthough from older bluray players to 1.4 cables into 1.4 3dtv. Also a pci stereo card that will install into windows and has dedicated processing and have input and output HDMI 1.3 + 1.4 and support dlp link and dvi or vga for older stereo glasses and dongles or monitors. Also have a 3 din vesa connector too. I see the new stuff is going to make everything way easy and compatable but I like to have more than just one setup and I'm going to have 3 brand new 3dtv with 1.4 is not going to happen. I think most people want something that can smooth out the flow and enhance the stereo experience. It real to bad nothing much has come out, for already working monitors and hardware that seems to be needed to scrap because of the new streamlined stuff.
http://www.cns-nynolyt.com/files/doms-systemspecs.html My System specs In HTML

Image

Cyberia on Youtube

__________________________________________________________________________________________
Image
User avatar
DmitryKo
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:25 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by DmitryKo »

Kamus wrote:we've used optical cables for more than a decade for stuff that never needed it in the first place (DTS and DD) but some how we're still using copper cables for video. (think about it, if we were using those optical cables, we would never, ever need to have to buy different cables when a new interface came out)
Even if that were be possible, the trade-off would be the cost of fiber optic hardware. S/P DIF optical is only 2 Mbit/s, and HDMI 1.3 and Dual-link DVI are a whopping 8 Gbit/s. Do you know the cost of of Ethernet 10GBASE-SR equipment (10 Gigabit Ethernet in a fiber optic fashion)?
take a look at display port 1.2 that completely blows away HDMI 1.4 while still using the same display port cables people already have
DisplayPort is more future-proof, that's no doubt; DisplayPort v1.2 will probably last for another 10 years without requiring any significant updates to the spec.
User avatar
DmitryKo
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:25 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by DmitryKo »

Dom wrote:This new HDMI 1.4 standard is quite interesting so that basically no other cable willl be used to connect 3d to a 3dtv, whether it is a computer or bluray player
Why not? Nothing precludes TV makers from supporting additional non-HDMI formats - I'd think 3D DLP and 3D plasma sets will continue to use checkerboard, just like they were doing until now, and there are quite a few TVs which replace analog VGA with DisplayPort, which supports full-resolution frame-sequential stereo, as well as additional stereo formats starting with DisplayPort v1.2.
surely hope there are some alternatives to connect older equipment to a new 3dtv. From what I see there needs to be new adapters like an 1.3 to 1.4 adapter for either compression or just full out 1.4 passthough from older bluray players to 1.4 cables into 1.4 3dtv
I'd guess a converter box such as Mitsubishi 3DC-1000 will be required to connect a HDMI 1.4 Blu-ray 3D player to an older checkerboard-only 3D TV.

There are no new cable requirements since HDMI 1.3 - just like before, there are two categories, Standard (Category 1) for up to 720p60 and 1080i60 signal, and High-speed (Cagegory 2) for 1080p60 and up to 2160p30 (a maximum 8.16 Gbit/s); HDMI LLC specifically forbids using HDMI version numbers for cable products.
a pci stereo card that will install into windows and has dedicated processing and have input and output HDMI 1.3 + 1.4 and support dlp link and dvi or vga for older stereo glasses and dongles or monitors
Well, old-school VGA sync dongles won't work with the newest 120 Hz 1920x1080 monitors, since they don't support analog conections in 120 Hz mode, but most of the above can be done on your existing video card and would only require some driver updates.

I'd think most wireless emitters and wired glasses will use USB and standard VESA stereo connector in the near future, so they should have no problem working with 3D TVs through the VESA connector, as well as 120 Hz PC monitors in USB mode; "ATI by AMD" has been working with 3rd parties to enable USB sync in their future Catalyst driver releases; Nvidia is not currently interested in 3rd party interoperability though, since they want to market their own proprietary solution, the 3D Vision glasses kit and the WDDM stereo driver for Vista/Win7.
User avatar
BlackShark
Certif-Eyable!
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by BlackShark »

DmitryKo wrote:A brief resume: HDMI 3D revision 1.4 supports the following stereo structures:


* Frame packing - a special top-bottom format that includes a blank space in between sub-frames, in addition to standard Vblank and Hblank
-- supports progressive and interlaced video
-- progressive (full-resolution) frame packing - best for 120 Hz frame sequential displays from Sony, Panasonic etc.
-- interlaced (half-resolution) frame packing -can be used with line-interleaved passive-polarized displays; less than optimal though
I have something I wish to modify to express my point of view.
Framepacking -- progressive : best for any stereoscopic display
Framepacking -- interlaced : less than optimal for consumers but added anyway for compatibility in order to help TV studios which made heavy investments in 1080i equipment to do the transition to 3D.

The rest : old stuff which nobody is really interested for implementing into new products but was included into the specs anyway just in case someone would need it for some legacy stuff.
The Philipps wowvx stuff : on hold, not ready for consumer adoption.
In order to keep as much design simplicity, compatibility and low prices, each component of the video chain should stick to it's rôle a be able to function with as little knowledge of the next component as possible.
The rôle of the BluRay player or the DVB/Satellite reciever is to decompress the picture into it's maximum resolution, the rôle of the TV is to display that picture, not the opposite.
All the additional Gizmos that have been added to TVs and DVD players still follow this principle : give the best of the picture until the very last step. Using the optionnal 3D transmission schemes would result in limiting the decoding hardware to transmit a lower quality image to the TV while they both are capable of transfering better quality pictures (since it's mandatory format)

Frame packing is the format which carries the most information, it is the one which has the best quality : for every display :
Interlaced displays (CRT TVs) are no more (goodbye and please don't come back), line interleaved displays (Xpol) do benefit from being able to work with the full picture (as demonstrated by the iZ3D driver and James Cameron's Avatar line interleave optimized filters). And finally most of next year's Frame sequential shutter based displays will use multiflashing (200Hz or 240Hz) so the left and right pictures must be shot at the exact same time.

Stereo3D has the chance of being offered a consumer market almost free of any backward compatibility issues since the consumer market is not equipped at all.
Current stereo3D devices rely on computers to prepare their pictures into their native display format because of the lack of a universal way of transmitting stereo3D pictures. Once standards are in place and followed, these remotely driven displays controlled directly by a computer will no longer be used.

This is why Frame Packing is the only mandatory format and the DLP checkerboard has been kept out of the spec in favor of optionnal converters for people who want to keep their old DLP displays. (it's almost said by Mitsubishi if you understand their announcement about hdmi-to-DLP converters correctly)


The big question i am asking myself is : can framepacking allow stereo1080p @ 60Hz (not a mandatory format) to fit within the bandwidth of a "category 2" (labelled hdmi1.3 anyway) cable. If it can, then hdmi 1.4 is futureproof enough for home use and will do fine. HDTVs won't go 4K stereo3D for a while. Most cinemas aren't even equipped with such systems.
Passive 3D forever !
DIY polarised dual-projector setup :
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (2D 1080p)
Xtrem Screen Daylight 2.0, for polarized 3D
3D Vision gaming with signal converter : VNS Geobox 501
User avatar
DmitryKo
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:25 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by DmitryKo »

BlackShark wrote:The rest : old stuff which nobody is really interested for implementing
At least three display manufacturers have licensed the RealD format (that includes Sony, Panasonic and JVC), and quite a few licensed Sensio format. Why would they license something if they do not intend to implement it?
Using the optionnal 3D transmission schemes would result in limiting the decoding hardware to transmit a lower quality image to the TV
The majority of the optional schemes in HDMI 1.4 are "full-resolution" formats (2 out of 3, excluding the WOWvx which is not really for home use), and side-by-side half is not that inferior since it can use quincunx sampling.

I'd rather think the choice of mandatory resolutions was dictated by the fact that most current HDMI devices such as surround sound receivers are limited by HDMI 1.0 rates and would only accept mono 1080p60 signal at most, so HDMI had to choose mandatory video modes that do not exceed this limit, as suggested in another thread, and these naturally are 720p60 stereo and 1080p30 stereo.
Frame packing is the format which carries the most information, it is the one which has the best quality : for every display
But it's not optimal for transmission to dual-head displays because of latency issues; line-interleaved full and side-by-side full would do better.
these remotely driven displays controlled directly by a computer will no longer be used
What would happen to them - a HDMI-3D Fairy will touch them with her magic stick and they all will disappear overnight? Or DLPT TV owners who use their sets with the PC will all migrate to 720p console gaming?
The big question i am asking myself is : can framepacking allow stereo1080p @ 60Hz (not a mandatory format) to fit within the bandwidth of a "category 2" (labelled hdmi1.3 anyway) cable
The answer is here. Common stereoscopic video resolutions and bandwidth
If it can, then hdmi 1.4 is futureproof enough for home use and will do fine
It will, but still there are some annoying omissions such as lack of support for dual-interface (dual projectors), future 30" 1400p/1600p 120 Hz monitors, or long-distance optical fiber carrier, which DisplayPort 1.2 does support (that's when HDMI tells stories how unecessary is DisplayPort and how they are really better for doing everything, including the PC stuff), and some quite unnecessary features such as integrated 100 Mbit Ethernet.

Also, I'd imagine display makers will start marketing 21:9 1440p 3D TVs in the same moment as the market is saturated with 1080p 3D displays :)
User avatar
DmitryKo
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:25 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by DmitryKo »

Updates in v1.4a

Mandatory stereo formats:
* Frame packing - a full-resolution top-bottom format with additional vertical blanking area in the middle
-- progressive (full-resolution)
-- interlaced (half temporal resolution)
* Side-by-side (Half)
-- horizontal subsampling (1 variant) updated
* Top-and-Bottom (half-resolution) new

Optional formats:
* Field alternative (interlaced) - not really different from interlaced frame packing
* Line alternative (full-resolution)
* Side-by-side (Half)
-- quincunx samping (4 variants - L/R pictures sampled at odd/odd, odd/even, even/odd, even/even positions)
-- includes Real-D and Sensio formats (side-by-side checkerboard)
* Side-by-side (Full)
* 2D + depth - Philips WOWvx
* 2D + depth + graphics + graphics depth - Philips WOWvx Declipse

Mandatory 3D modes:
* Blu-ray 3D movies - frame packing at 1080p @ 23.98/24 Hz
* console gaming - frame packing at 720p @ 50 Hz or 59.94/60 Hz
* broadcast television new
- top-bottom (half) at 720p @ 50 Hz or 59.94/60 Hz, 1080p @ 23.97/24Hz
- side-by-side (half) at 1080i @ 50 Hz or 59.94/60Hz
* HDMI Sinks and Repeaters must support all modes; Sources must support at least one

All other video modes are optional.

Primary 3D Video Format Timings new
* 1280x720p @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz - Frame Packing, Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom
* 1280x720p @ 23.98/24, 29.97/30 Hz - Frame Packing
* 1920x1080i @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz - Frame Packing, Side-by-Side(Half)
* 1920x1080p @ 23.98/24, 30Hz - Frame Packing, Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom
* 1920x1080p @ 29.97, 30Hz - Frame Packing, Top-and-Bottom
* 1920x1080p @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz - Top-and-Bottom

Secondary 3D Video timings include: new
* 1280x720p @ 23.98/24Hz, 29.97/30Hz - Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom
* 1280x720p @ 25Hz - Frame Packing, Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom
* 1920x1080i @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz - Top-and-Bottom
* 1920x1080p @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz - Frame Packing, Side-by-Side(Half)
* 1920x1080p @ 100 or 119.88/120Hz - Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom
* other SDTV, EDTV and HDTV timings defined in CEA-861-E
Last edited by DmitryKo on Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
BlackShark
Certif-Eyable!
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by BlackShark »

So, 1080p60 frame packing is specified but not mandatory, right ?
At least it's good news.
Passive 3D forever !
DIY polarised dual-projector setup :
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (2D 1080p)
Xtrem Screen Daylight 2.0, for polarized 3D
3D Vision gaming with signal converter : VNS Geobox 501
User avatar
DmitryKo
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:25 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by DmitryKo »

I don't see much good news there. All in all, 1080p60 frame packing is placed in a secondary part of recommended stereo resolution and modes, which is not really encouraging.

Looks like 3D TV makers did't yet woke up to the realisation that PC gaming will be much much bigger market than Blu-ray 3D, because stereo 3D conversion of a game takes a lot less time, effort and money than a stereo 3D conversion of a Hollywood movie, or a stereo movie setup right from the start. They are instead providing non-optimal half-resolution formats which can only be seen as a stop-gap measure until full-resolution 1080p formats are implemented through DisplayPort or HDMI 1.4.


Addition from MAR 15:
Post copied from Samsung C7000 series 3D HDTV manual available.
taz291819 wrote:The only thing I can think of is that the PC Mode isn't intended for console gaming.
It may be unintended, but it will work with existing stereo 3D console games like The Invincible Tiger. I'm just trying to comprehend the stupidity of only allowing a mandatory 720p60 stereo mode on a 1080p60 stereo display - the in-game text will look just horrible after upscaling 720p source to native 1080p.
If you think about it, I bet if you connect a PC to it, and play with the resolution and timings, you could get 720p 3D to work (while not in PC mode).
No. VESA 1280x720 60Hz mode will only accept half-resolution stereo 3D signal, unlike HDMI 1.4 720p60 mode which uses special top/under "frame packing" full-resolution format.

As I said earlier, PCs currently can not support this special mode because it's not some new CEA-861 timing which can be retrieved from EDID; in fact, all existing CEA-861-E modes can be encoded in 3 different mandatory stereo formats (as of HDMI 1.4a) and 6 optional formats, and there are new HDMI control messages which define the stereo format used. So it is not enough to just play with image settings and encoding formats, the PC must support new HMDI 3D signalling protocols.
This is kind of like the VGA (DB15) input on some 1080p displays. The highest resolution that some will take is 1024x768, even though it's a 1080p display. I guess it's the PnP factor. Though we all know you can just use a HDMI input and get the higher resolutions
No, it's not a kind of weird "plug-and-play", it's just such displays have significant overscan, so 1:1 pixel mapping is not possible on their HDMI inputs and can't get a crisp picture if you connect a PC in a 1080p mode. This can be overcome with under/overscan compensation in display driver's control panel to some extent.

Thankfully most newer 1080p sets conform to European 3d ready 1080p specs which require 1:1 pixel mapping in 1080p mode.

[Edit] Looks like I've erased an earlier post instead of adding a new one :( Restoring.
Last edited by DmitryKo on Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
taz291819
Cross Eyed!
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:59 am

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by taz291819 »

DmitryKo wrote:No, it's not a kind of weird "plug-and-play", it's just such displays have significant overscan, so 1:1 pixel mapping is not possible on their HDMI inputs and can't get a crisp picture if you connect a PC in a 1080p mode. This can be overcome with under/overscan compensation in display driver's control panel to some extent.

Thankfully most newer 1080p sets conform to European 3d ready 1080p specs which require 1:1 pixel mapping in 1080p mode.
I don't agree with your reasoning of it not being a PnP thing due to overscan. PnP specs have been around since these types of displays were produced, and I've personally owned several CRTs (PC monitors and RPTVs) that you had to adjust for overscan and or underscan, all within PnP spec. Though I'll admit, this is slightly off-topic since I wasn't meaning the actual PnP spec, but more of the idea behind it.
User avatar
DmitryKo
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 776
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:25 am
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: 3D Portion Of HDMI Version 1.4 Available For Download

Post by DmitryKo »

I don't agree with your reasoning of it not being a PnP thing due to overscan. PnP specs have been around since these types of displays were produced
I didn't say anything like this. "Plug'n'Play" is just a means to negotiate a compatible video mode, it's not about displaying the picture in an ideal way.

What I did say is these limited-resolution analog VGA ports just avoided inherent 10% overscan present in the image processing engine by only using a portion of the full resolution screen, they weren't somehow offering "more PnP" than standard HDMI ports as you implied. In fact, HDMI port supported PnP protocols like EDID and DDC (which are the core of Monitor Plug'n'Play on the PC) right from the start.

Newer HDTVs offer full native resolution on VGA ports, which suggests that limited VGA resolution was just a stop-gap measure until the engineers would have a chance to rework the image processing to properly support the native resolution in PC mode, on both HDMI and analog VGA.
I've personally owned several CRTs (PC monitors and RPTVs) that you had to adjust for overscan and or underscan, all within PnP spec
There was no problem of overscan with PC CRT monitors - the presumed standard was 0% overscan. Most 1990s monitors used digital controllers which could properly detect blanking intervals in standard video modes and position the picture accordingly, and they defaulted to a slight underscan, so you could see the whole picture sent by the PC. If you wanted to, you could adjust the image to fill the whole screen or correct geometric distortions caused by irregular travel distances of the electron beam - that's what the digital controls on higher-end displays were for.
Post Reply

Return to “MTBS Newswire”