Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

Hi All,

Well, after a year or so (on and off) of engineering / sweating and swearing in my spare time, finally my rig is nearly finished so I thought I'd post here for your 'amusement'. Also, after trying a boltload of projectors, shutter glasses from various manufacturers and some software and electronics engineering tinkering I've finally just about got things where I want them - I know a few people here are interested in a decent solution for 3d projectors with shutters, and there is a lot of mixed information here, so I've tried to lay out all the facts for the benefit of these individuals.

Firstly, a little information on the rig itself. This has not yet been posted in any other forums but should be soon, along with videos on YouTube for anyone interested.

Current software titles that work with the wind, OLED display, simulator and 3d projectors are (among others):

rFactor
GTR2
Dirt
Grid
NoLimits coaster
Race07
iRacing
And my own software, 'Innomotion', which I use to compose motion data for IMAX 3d-ride films available on DVD.


- Highly tuned SCN5-based motion frame (400mm per sec actuators, for full pitch/roll and highly accurate road surface and g-force simulation), raised on custom-built vibration platform with 5-bar tread plate surface (containing 2 x Buttkicker LFE's for low frequency crashes / explosions and road rumble). The vibration platform using acoustic isolators (hard rubber) to prevent vibrations shaking down everything in the house).

- Aluminum Strut profile frame, with adjustable steering wheel / pedal positions etc for different sized individuals. Sparco light race seat and Sparco 4-point harness (which is needed to 1) Protect the actuators so a users weight doesn’t 'catapult' against them while being thrown around in the seat, and 2) Enhance the actuator feedback, you can feel absolutely everything they are doing when harnessed into the seat).

- Frex 'SimConMeter' OLED display with gear change LEDs. Shows full vehicle console externally.

- 2 x Aura Pro Bass Shakers mounted to seat to simulate engine vibration.

- 2 x Buttkicker Gamers attached to pedal rack for full engine vibration through feet as well as body.

- Logitech G25 Steering Wheel, Frex HBrake+ handbrake, Frex HShift+ 8-way-H Shifter, Customized logitech (dismantled and reverse mounted) pedal set with Nixim brake mod.

- 4 * high velocity mini industrial fans (hard braking), independently controlled (so wind direction is simulated, e.g. when skidding into a corner the wind hits you from the left or right). These create wind in accuracy to the precise current speed, and the number of fans / velocity has been carefully chosen - when hurtling along in an F1 car in rFactor for instance you are being blasted with huge amounts of air. The software to control these was custom written.

- 7" LCD touch screen in custom mounted carbon-fibre box, running touchbuddy (replacing keyboard) and also containing a number of backlit arcade buttons below it (using an ultimarc IPAC) to switch between various on-screen functions (including jukebox, vehicle controls etc).

- Logitech 5.1 surround system with custom chair speaker mounts. I also use a set of wireless Philips 5.1 headphones to keep the noise down late at night.

- Custom built screens (aluminum strut profile), using reflective projector screen fabric stretched over plywood. These are built to a very high standard and painted black on the reverse - they are foldable at the sides to save space and measure (x3) 1m x 75cm each. They are also height adjustable, and have black fabric stretching from the bottoms down to the floor (like a big wide cinema screen). The motion platform is positioned such that the FOV is 180 degrees wide, and with shutter glasses on pretty much fills your vision from top to bottom too.

- 3 x BenQ MP720 DLP projectors and Matrox TH2G Digital. Total resolution is 3072x768.

- CrystalEyes 3 shutter glasses and 3 x E2 emitters (one above each screen).

- Computer: MountainMods U2-UFO Chassis, XFX GTX280 xxx edition, Q6600 quad core, RAID 0 10k Raptors etc.

- Other accessories (some not related): TrackIR4, TNGames Vest, Novint Falcon (on its way, will post a review).

- A second racing rig is currently being built with the same SCN5-based motion system, I'm using a single XR-10X and 84" widescreen for this, and will be used for 2-player racing.

3D shutter glasses with this lot (and the XR10X)
================================================

Originally, I was using a single projector with the Oldschool NVidia drivers and eDimensional glasses. I have about 6 pairs of these I no longer use now with a high power emitter from 3dflightsim.com. This solution worked well, but of course without a powerful machine supported triple-head and the latest games was out of the question.

So, next I waited anxiously for the Iz3d shutter drivers (which never really appeared) - many of you will have read the problems about sync / eyes swapping etc. So, I helped them with the mark shutter spec for the Stereographics StereoEnabler and got one of those. Again, for slightly older games it was great, but because the glasses shutter at the same speed as the current FPS using this method, significant flicker could result when the FPS dropped below 85hz. Also, some shutter glasses (like the CrystalEyes 3 I use for example) won't work at all below about 75hz. So, apart from older solutions this was STILL a no-goer.

Now, 3dvision. The minute I read on here someone had got these working at 85hz I had a pair shipped to the UK which arrived a couple of days ago. There is another post floating around from Damo, which says he got eDims working with this, but there are issues.

Note that of course 3dvision works 100% fine with DepthQ projectors, but these are bloody expensive for what they are, and older 'stereo capable' consumer units nearly as good (albeit slightly slower refresh but 85hz is plenty imo). Another word of note, if you've been interested in the info floating around about the new Viewsonic 120hz DLP about to hit the market, it is not all its cracked up to be - this uses checkerboarding so effectively halves the resolution of the image - I was excited about this originally but is now a deal breaker for me.

Ghosting
========

With my xr10-x and MP720p's there is a bit of green / purple ghosting with the nvidia glasses. The same occurs with the Stereographics CrystalEyes 3's when used with the nvidia emitter (it is a complete co-incidence these work with this, and there are very slight issues I won't go into). The reason for this is a very slight sync issue, as the nvidia emitter is controlled by usb. The ghosting with the CE3's and Nvidia glasses is about the same when just using the NV emitter, and IMO rather distracting when playing games.

So, a workaround is to use an eDimensional dongle, and ED-Activator to active the sync-pin on the vga port to flip the glasses. This will yield exactly the same results (in terms of ghostng / image quality etc) as the old-school nvidia drivers would, as this means everything is working in the same way. Alternatively, if you want to use other VESA-compatible glasses (like ELSA, Stereographics etc), just use the 3-pin VESA output on an eDimensional VGA dongle to control the emitters for these.

Now, the important bit - if you want to use nvidias own glasses, you'll need to connect the eDimensioal VGA dongle VESA output directly to the VESA input on the nvidia IR dongle (the nvidia IR dongle comes with a lead suitable for this). BUT, you will also need the cicuitry described below to offset the timing perfectly, and switch the eyes so you don't need to wear the glasses upside down.

The best results
================

In order to get the absolute best results you can in terms of ghost-free images and colour balance (without histograming issues associated with mis-timings), a very simple bit of circuitry can be built which is similar to that in my high-power eDimensional emitter to delay / reverse the square wave as required. This way a potentiometer can be used to accurately offset the shuttering to exactly the right time interval, and if the eyes are reversed when you start playing a game you can just flick a switch to realign them (you should only ever really need to do this once at the start of a 3d game when the page-flipping frame buffers have just been cleared). BTW if anyone wants one of these please PM me, if there is enough interest I may make a small production run of them.

This hardware would sit between the VESA 3-pin output of the eDimensional VGA dongle and the 3-pin vesa input of other compatible IR-emitters. You'll need to see which ones are available for your glasses.

Currently, I have the 3dvision software working flawlessly with CrystalEyes - virtually zero ghosting and on 3 projectors at very high frame rates...

Some pictures of this ghastly creation are attached which were taken a few months ago. Some of the hardware can't be seen as it is obscured by the seat, and since this extra fans have been added along the top of the middle screen. Also not seen in the pictures is the projectors now have new lamps for brightness balance and have been perfectly aligned to be seemless. The overall experience (in my humble opinion) really is incredibly realistic and immersive for both rallying and high-speed driving games. Also good used with TrackIR for some FPS's as well!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by chrisjarram on Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
User avatar
Likay
Petrif-Eyed
Posts: 2913
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:34 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by Likay »

Wow!!! Speachless! I'm impressed! :shock: Great work!
Would love to once try something like this!
Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe
Cpu: C2D E6600
Gb: Nvidia 7900GT + 8800GTX
3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D
Image
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

Likay wrote:Wow!!! Speachless! I'm impressed! :shock: Great work!
Would love to once try something like this!
Thanks Likay! :)

I've just edited slightly btw, you CAN use the 3dvision glasses with projectors (and reduce the ghosting) using the said circuitry and VESA input port of the 3Dvision dongle.

Hope this helps people.
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
Xerion
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:22 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by Xerion »

Awesome :) I might get 2 more XR-10X's and a TH2GO myself (found a possible source for the XR-10X's, still waiting for an answer on some questions). But first things first, I have to get the 3dvision glasses somehow...
Current Rig: Intel i7 920 @ 4.0GHz, 6 GB ram, Geforce GTX670 -> Nvidia 3D Vision on LG 47LM615S (interlaced, spoofing Zalman EDID) + Oculus Rift
Control Peripherals: Novint Falcon, Razer Hydra, P5 Glove, XBOX 360 Controller, Wiimote, Saitek X52 Pro (flight control system), Logitech G27 (racing wheel), Logitech G15 (keyboard), Razer Naga Molten Edition (mouse)
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

Xerion wrote:Awesome :) I might get 2 more XR-10X's and a TH2GO myself (found a possible source for the XR-10X's, still waiting for an answer on some questions). But first things first, I have to get the 3dvision glasses somehow...
Let me guess.. 'Are these definately XR-10X's and not XR-10XL's? :). I did have 3 XR-10X's at one point but found the MP720P's actually give slightly more natural colours (as well as being smaller, brighter and with cheaper lamps). One advantage with using 3 XR-10X's though is because you have a 2x colour wheel speed @ 85hz you dont have to play roulette to sync the colour wheels :).
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
User avatar
cybereality
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
Posts: 11406
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by cybereality »

Amazing setup! Nice work man.
User avatar
yuriythebest
Petrif-Eyed
Posts: 2476
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:35 pm
Location: Kiev, ukraine

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by yuriythebest »

cool a 3Dconnexion SpaceNavigator!

oh and of course your 3d rig :)

can I come live at your house?
Oculus Rift / 3d Sucks - 2D FTW!!!
smoothy
Sharp Eyed Eagle!
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:32 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by smoothy »

Hello chrisjarram,

I just read all that

That simulator is mind blowing and what I have always wanted to get. I am based in the UK. obviously I don't have the money just yet to build that kind of simulator. But how much did it cost you for everything?

Would you build me one if I ever get the cash?

Ideally I would like a curved screen, doing rear projection and perhaps in a passive setup. I would prefer a screen where the vertical length touches the ceiling completing immersing your eyes in a 3d world. I would then like the simulator frame to be able to be converted into a flight sim, racing sim and first person shooter setup. Also have the telemetric data from a flight sim to create motion using the simulator. I know it wouldn't be able to simulate completely a plane but with some drivers it could give a small bit of motion to make you feel that one bit closer to being in a plane. finally I would love 2 of these units for racing each other. With the possibility to play online using special servers designed for other people who have this simulator so you can go head to head online. This would be awesome.
smoothy
Sharp Eyed Eagle!
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:32 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by smoothy »

Something I forgot to mention, the fans are quite good. But how about adding to this setup the Philips ambx premium kit which is quite a setup. It adds lighting that changes depending on the game, has fans, vibration shakers, and all sorts of other amazing gadgets. It would be quite amazing with this simulator and is more compatible with games.
User avatar
martinlandau
Certif-Eyed!
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:44 pm
Location: United States

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by martinlandau »

OH MY GAWD! I just had accident in my virtual pants and send them to cleaners in second life.
Another word of note, if you've been interested in the info floating around about the new Viewsonic 120hz DLP about to hit the market, it is not all its cracked up to be - this uses checkerboarding so effectively halves the resolution of the image - I was excited about this originally but is now a deal breaker for me.
I am confused, I thought if you had 120hz, you could page flip and get full resolution, I don't understand. Please elaborte. Also - Have you not considered CRT projectors like the sony 1272 or 1292?
With my xr10-x and MP720p's there is a bit of green / purple ghosting with the nvidia glasses. The same occurs with the Stereographics CrystalEyes 3's when used with the nvidia emitter (it is a complete co-incidence these work with this, and there are very slight issues I won't go into).
Could you please go into, more info is better than less. I have crystal eyes 3 as well, but have been having hard time getting my friends to buy crystal eyes 3, with the emitter they cost so much and so many people here are poor. Is the reverse true, can you use crystal eyes emitter with nvidia glasses? - does that fix the sync problem?
The reason for this is a very slight sync issue, as the nvidia emitter is controlled by usb. The ghosting with the CE3's and Nvidia glasses is about the same when just using the NV emitter, and IMO rather distracting when playing games.
I am very dissapointed to hear there is a sync issue, I cannot understand how a large company like nvidia in a very well researched and tested field could make such a HUGE engineering error, It does not compute. This really bums me out that mega corporations are releasing substandard products on the s3d market that we have to tweak with DIY solutions - pathetic - this is an OUTRAGE!
So, a workaround is to use an eDimensional dongle, and ED-Activator to active the sync-pin on the vga port to flip the glasses. This will yield exactly the same results (in terms of ghostng / image quality etc) as the old-school nvidia drivers would, as this means everything is working in the same way.
I bought an fx3500 with the built in vesa stereo connector to get beyond all this silly DIY crapola and Nvidia FAILS me AGAIN! They are really making me ANGRY! According to thier website I can't even use thier 3d nvision stuff til later this spring on my MADE FOR S3D fx3500 card - ARGH! Am I the only one thinking how retarded this all is? As far as yielding the same results (as far as ghosting) can you elaborate more, is the ghosting gone?
I've just edited slightly btw, you CAN use the 3dvision glasses with projectors (and reduce the ghosting) using the said circuitry and VESA input port of the 3Dvision dongle.
Have you ever heard of rube goldberg? I just can't fathom why we have to make this huge rube goldberg machine to get the NVIDIA glasses working and syncing right, I want Nvidia and Mr. Andrew Fear to tell me they are going to fix this crap with a new version of thier hardware or I am gonna naked short sell Nvidia stock into oblivion and make the company go bankrupt and put them all out of work, this is simply pathetic.

So I have to use edimensional stuff, then DIY (do it yourself circuitry) stuff, then nvidia stuff to get nvidia glasses working right - infuriating! Neil you better tell your buddies at nvida we getting really tired of this BS!
The futures so bright, I gotta wear shades!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDdI_sfNop8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

smoothy wrote:Something I forgot to mention, the fans are quite good. But how about adding to this setup the Philips ambx premium kit which is quite a setup. It adds lighting that changes depending on the game, has fans, vibration shakers, and all sorts of other amazing gadgets. It would be quite amazing with this simulator and is more compatible with games.
Hi Smoothy,

Will answer other questions on costings etc in a bit, am busy at work at the moment!

Trust me, this is in a completely different league to Philips amBX ;) Ambx is an attempt at a cheap peripheral solution for the general consumer, but I've spent thousands of pounds on development and the various components here, as well as trying many different options which I've then ditched because they didnt acheive quite the right effect - it has been designed to be very convincing and a serious virtual reality tool (as well as a training tool for professional drivers, which I now have a contract for with a San-Jose based simulation company to aid the development of because of this). The vibration shakers are second-to-none (earthquake like!), the wind tornado like (as opposed to the pissy little fans with the AMBX) and there is full capabilty to add lighting effects to my PC-controlled output boards if required - which would be pointless anyway as the entire FOV is filled with the screens. In terms of the lighting, I run a festival/nightclub lighting company in my spare time (http://www.celestiallightworks.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and do a lot of work with this kind of thing so I've tried tinkering with things here and there.

If I added an AMBx to this system, it would honestly fail so badly you would not even notice it was there! :)
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

martinlandau wrote:OH MY GAWD! I just had accident in my virtual pants and send them to cleaners in second life.
Another word of note, if you've been interested in the info floating around about the new Viewsonic 120hz DLP about to hit the market, it is not all its cracked up to be - this uses checkerboarding so effectively halves the resolution of the image - I was excited about this originally but is now a deal breaker for me.
I am confused, I thought if you had 120hz, you could page flip and get full resolution, I don't understand. Please elaborte. Also - Have you not considered CRT projectors like the sony 1272 or 1292?
With my xr10-x and MP720p's there is a bit of green / purple ghosting with the nvidia glasses. The same occurs with the Stereographics CrystalEyes 3's when used with the nvidia emitter (it is a complete co-incidence these work with this, and there are very slight issues I won't go into).
Could you please go into, more info is better than less. I have crystal eyes 3 as well, but have been having hard time getting my friends to buy crystal eyes 3, with the emitter they cost so much and so many people here are poor. Is the reverse true, can you use crystal eyes emitter with nvidia glasses? - does that fix the sync problem?
The reason for this is a very slight sync issue, as the nvidia emitter is controlled by usb. The ghosting with the CE3's and Nvidia glasses is about the same when just using the NV emitter, and IMO rather distracting when playing games.
I am very dissapointed to hear there is a sync issue, I cannot understand how a large company like nvidia in a very well researched and tested field could make such a HUGE engineering error, It does not compute. This really bums me out that mega corporations are releasing substandard products on the s3d market that we have to tweak with DIY solutions - pathetic - this is an OUTRAGE!
So, a workaround is to use an eDimensional dongle, and ED-Activator to active the sync-pin on the vga port to flip the glasses. This will yield exactly the same results (in terms of ghostng / image quality etc) as the old-school nvidia drivers would, as this means everything is working in the same way.
I bought an fx3500 with the built in vesa stereo connector to get beyond all this silly DIY crapola and Nvidia FAILS me AGAIN! They are really making me ANGRY! According to thier website I can't even use thier 3d nvision stuff til later this spring on my MADE FOR S3D fx3500 card - ARGH! Am I the only one thinking how retarded this all is? As far as yielding the same results (as far as ghosting) can you elaborate more, is the ghosting gone?
I've just edited slightly btw, you CAN use the 3dvision glasses with projectors (and reduce the ghosting) using the said circuitry and VESA input port of the 3Dvision dongle.
Have you ever heard of rube goldberg? I just can't fathom why we have to make this huge rube goldberg machine to get the NVIDIA glasses working and syncing right, I want Nvidia and Mr. Andrew Fear to tell me they are going to fix this crap with a new version of thier hardware or I am gonna naked short sell Nvidia stock into oblivion and make the company go bankrupt and put them all out of work, this is simply pathetic.

So I have to use edimensional stuff, then DIY (do it yourself circuitry) stuff, then nvidia stuff to get nvidia glasses working right - infuriating! Neil you better tell your buddies at nvida we getting really tired of this BS!
Will elaborate on the other stuff later, but no the viewsonic is checkerboard in order to keep the cost to the consumer down. A very high video bandwidth is required for 1024x768 resolution images @ 120hz, and therefore more costly components needed to interpret and fully process this signal. The DepthQ's do this properly, which is why they are 3 times the cost of the Viewsonic. Checkerboard requires only half the video throughput, its as simple as that.

The sync problem is not an error on nvidia's behalf - they never claimed to be able to support projectors which are not branded 3d (or anything other than the DepthQs for that matter). Remember these 85hz units were never designed to be used in this way, it is sheer luck that they do. Also, each one has different electronics and signal propogation times internally, so it is impossible to get the timing right for all of them without some method of adjusting it.

CRT projectors arent even an option to me, they are HUGE and when the guns go cost a fortune to replace. DLPs are much better for this purpose and tend to offer better resolutions (apart from some HD crts of course).

I havent tried the nvidia glasses with the CE emitter, will give this a go tonight out of interest.

When I said about 'yielding the same results', yes - any ghosting that should NOT be there is gone completely - the only ghosting that can be seen is very high contast objects where the contrast ratio of the LCS's is not enough to blank the opposite eye completely.

My aim now will be to physically modify the nvidia glasses to reverse the page flip (as it is the opposite to my arsenal of CrystalEyes glasses, some of which will be for sale soon btw), get the delay electronics integrated to offset the delay to the nvidia IR emitter (I _really_ want to use this emitter as its range is phenomenal), and then I'll be able to use both the CE3's and Nvidia glasses simultaneously. When I get round to this I'll have a bash at it and post the results here.
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
User avatar
martinlandau
Certif-Eyed!
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:44 pm
Location: United States

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by martinlandau »

A very high video bandwidth is required for 1024x768 resolution images @ 120hz, and therefore more costly components needed to interpret and fully process this signal. The DepthQ's do this properly, which is why they are 3 times the cost of the Viewsonic. Checkerboard requires only half the video throughput, its as simple as that.
I guess I had falsely assumed with samsung and others making true 120hz lcd monitors, that hurdle had been overcome.
CRT projectors arent even an option to me, they are HUGE and when the guns go cost a fortune to replace. DLPs are much better for this purpose and tend to offer better resolutions (apart from some HD crts of course).

at 150hz and 30,000:1 CR http://curtpalme.com/PJSpecs_Sony.shtm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; on some very cheap CRT projectors you can often find on ebay I didn't realize they were so expensive. Do you know anyone who has tried nvidias new solution with a crt projector?
When I said about 'yielding the same results', yes - any ghosting that should NOT be there is gone completely - the only ghosting that can be seen is very high contast objects where the contrast ratio of the LCS's is not enough to blank the opposite eye completely.
In that regard, how do the crystal eyes 3 compare to the nvidia solution? IE which ghost more because of poorer CR? If I remember correctly stereographics said 1500:1 CR on their shutters. I have looked everywhere for someone to do some testing/measurement between the 2.
The futures so bright, I gotta wear shades!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDdI_sfNop8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image
smoothy
Sharp Eyed Eagle!
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:32 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by smoothy »

chrisjarram wrote:
smoothy wrote:Something I forgot to mention, the fans are quite good. But how about adding to this setup the Philips ambx premium kit which is quite a setup. It adds lighting that changes depending on the game, has fans, vibration shakers, and all sorts of other amazing gadgets. It would be quite amazing with this simulator and is more compatible with games.
Hi Smoothy,

Will answer other questions on costings etc in a bit, am busy at work at the moment!

Trust me, this is in a completely different league to Philips amBX ;) Ambx is an attempt at a cheap peripheral solution for the general consumer, but I've spent thousands of pounds on development and the various components here, as well as trying many different options which I've then ditched because they didnt acheive quite the right effect - it has been designed to be very convincing and a serious virtual reality tool (as well as a training tool for professional drivers, which I now have a contract for with a San-Jose based simulation company to aid the development of because of this). The vibration shakers are second-to-none (earthquake like!), the wind tornado like (as opposed to the pissy little fans with the AMBX) and there is full capabilty to add lighting effects to my PC-controlled output boards if required - which would be pointless anyway as the entire FOV is filled with the screens. In terms of the lighting, I run a festival/nightclub lighting company in my spare time (http://www.celestiallightworks.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and do a lot of work with this kind of thing so I've tried tinkering with things here and there.

If I added an AMBx to this system, it would honestly fail so badly you would not even notice it was there! :)
Many thanks for your detailed reply

It's good to know that the fans are far more powerful, this sim of yours seems incredible. When you have time to post I would love to know the price!
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

martinlandau wrote:
A very high video bandwidth is required for 1024x768 resolution images @ 120hz, and therefore more costly components needed to interpret and fully process this signal. The DepthQ's do this properly, which is why they are 3 times the cost of the Viewsonic. Checkerboard requires only half the video throughput, its as simple as that.
I guess I had falsely assumed with samsung and others making true 120hz lcd monitors, that hurdle had been overcome.
CRT projectors arent even an option to me, they are HUGE and when the guns go cost a fortune to replace. DLPs are much better for this purpose and tend to offer better resolutions (apart from some HD crts of course).

at 150hz and 30,000:1 CR http://curtpalme.com/PJSpecs_Sony.shtm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; on some very cheap CRT projectors you can often find on ebay I didn't realize they were so expensive. Do you know anyone who has tried nvidias new solution with a crt projector?
When I said about 'yielding the same results', yes - any ghosting that should NOT be there is gone completely - the only ghosting that can be seen is very high contast objects where the contrast ratio of the LCS's is not enough to blank the opposite eye completely.
In that regard, how do the crystal eyes 3 compare to the nvidia solution? IE which ghost more because of poorer CR? If I remember correctly stereographics said 1500:1 CR on their shutters. I have looked everywhere for someone to do some testing/measurement between the 2.
re: the CRTS - I agree if you get a really high end one I suspect you'd be able to get amazing results, though you'd still be looking at lower light output (which is why they still use things like Christies in IMAX theatres) - a CRT is a CRT (which 3dVision supports), so no reason this would not work.. however the XGA ones on that page start at $10k, would require professional installation and alignment, consume a shedload of power and the contrast ratio doesnt make a lot of difference once you get past 2000:1 anyway (certainly not with s3D anyway, as higher contrast images only result in more noticable ghosting with LCS glasses). The only real advange here is the refresh, and if you were gonna spend that kind of money you may as well halve it and get a DepthQ HD anyway.

The CrystalEyes glasses are better than the nvidia solution, which is no surprise really as they are the Rolls Royce of 3d glasses - they give a better FOV for large rigs, give slightly more natural colours (less 'tinted' than the Nvidias), are more comfortable and slightly less ghosting. In regards to contrast ratios 1500:1 is excellent for shutters, and the new CE5's do 5000:1 - pretty most ghost-free!

I do have to say though the nvidias are a good compromise, very little ghosting if the timing is adjusted right and a good FOV for the money - the range and rechargability are excellent also.
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
User avatar
martinlandau
Certif-Eyed!
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:44 pm
Location: United States

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by martinlandau »

consume a shedload of power and the contrast ratio doesnt make a lot of difference once you get past 2000:1 anyway (certainly not with s3D anyway, as higher contrast images only result in more noticable ghosting with LCS glasses).
Yah but those ce5's have 5000:1 and realD ASSURES there will be no ghosting or eyestrain, what I don't get is they say DLP only - wtf? What about people who have crt or in the future who buy 120hz or greater LCD projectors that aren't dlp3d certified - are they hosed with ce5 solution? Will it take some more rube goldberg machinations to make work?

Thanks for all your input - you are a fount of knowledge and this was a very intersting thread.
The futures so bright, I gotta wear shades!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDdI_sfNop8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image
zazoo
Two Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:07 pm

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by zazoo »

:shock: :shock: :shock: Wow--what a setup! Congratulations!!!
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

martinlandau wrote:
consume a shedload of power and the contrast ratio doesnt make a lot of difference once you get past 2000:1 anyway (certainly not with s3D anyway, as higher contrast images only result in more noticable ghosting with LCS glasses).
Yah but those ce5's have 5000:1 and realD ASSURES there will be no ghosting or eyestrain, what I don't get is they say DLP only - wtf? What about people who have crt or in the future who buy 120hz or greater LCD projectors that aren't dlp3d certified - are they hosed with ce5 solution? Will it take some more rube goldberg machinations to make work?

Thanks for all your input - you are a fount of knowledge and this was a very intersting thread.
No probs! Having had countless headaches with this stuff in the past I thought it best to lay down the facts - It can be expensive experimenting to be disappointed with no good result!

In terms of the 2000:1, I was talking about the projector CR (not the glasses). I didn't notice though the CE5's stated DLP only, you are right that is a bit stuipd and sounds like nonsense to me (why would this be?).
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

XR-10X results
===========

More test results from last night. I tried the nvidia emitter with my XR-10-x and CrystalEyes (I 5xCE3 and 3xCE2, and all work fine with the nvidia emitter so I think its safe to say this is CE-compatible but don't state me on that! :). The results were FLAWLESS - zero ghosting, eyes the right way round and perfect timing right out of the box (no need for eDimensional VGA dongle- this is down to a conveinient set of coincidences in the timing. With the nvidia glasses there is a slight red ghosting (due to the colour wheel sync) which can be resolved with the hardware mentioned above.

On another note, there is one other supposed 'software' solution for the sync issue but neither myself, nor anyone else I have spoke to, seems to have got this to work (apart from the individual who posted this). A few people have mentioned this around these forums (the alt -/= trick) but for the benefit of all here is the link:

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?show ... ntry504076" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If anyone has managed to get this working please let me know - I havent tried hacking around with it too much (literally I've just tested the hotkeys to no success) but would be interesting to get some group test results back, or even better some official word from nvidia on this...
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
User avatar
Okta
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)
Posts: 1515
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:22 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by Okta »

The official word from Andrew Fear was "What do you mean you need reverse the glasses????" :roll:

Do you think i will need your timing gizmo for an xr-10x with xforce glasses?
"I did not chip in ten grand to seed a first investment round to build value for a Facebook acquisition."
Notch on the FaceDisgrace buyout.
smoothy
Sharp Eyed Eagle!
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:32 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by smoothy »

It's all good talking about this, but this thread is about the home simulator as well and I would really like to know the cost of this home simulator???

Please post

Many thanks in advance
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

smoothy wrote:It's all good talking about this, but this thread is about the home simulator as well and I would really like to know the cost of this home simulator???

Please post

Many thanks in advance
Ah sorry, forgot to break it down.

Well, as you can imagine its not particulary cheap, but it is when you compare it to lesser-specced simulators like the CXC solution for example - and I've saved costs by building as much of it as I can and improvising.

Approx breakdown of actual material cost is:

Floor Panel with aucostic isolators £150 (home built).
Basic racing frame £200.
Actuator system (home built) £800
Buttkicker LFE's on floor panel (+ 2000 watt RMS amp) £500
Logitech G25 £150
Frex HBrake+ £120
Frex HShift+ £230
Frex Simconmeter £200
Sound system £200
Touch Screen Monitor + ultimarc and (home built) £200
Aura Bass Shakers + amp £250
Sparco seat and harness £160
Buttkicker Gamers (pedals) £220
3 x BENQ MP720P projectors (from ebay) approx £1000
TH2G digital £200
Triple screen (home built) £250
CrystalEyes emitters + CE3 glasses (1 pair) £300 (much more new).
Fans 4x35 = £140
Fan controller = £100

Total £5370 (inc some postage costs but not all).

I think thats about it, though might be a few things I've not considered. On top of this there is probably a good couple of weeks of solid labour and of course the cost of the PC, which was around £1500 I think.

To put it in perspective, the BlueTiger solution just released on the market costs about the same but doesn't come close in terms of features / immersion or actuator response. Then again, a lot of the equipment was bought as used or refurbed, paying full price for everything would push the cost up somewhat.
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
smoothy
Sharp Eyed Eagle!
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:32 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by smoothy »

Many thanks for the prices

When I have some money I will make this setup. I would by everything new.

There is a lot on that list I wouldn't get, I am not too hard core and believe I can make a good compromise and still have total immersion.

But how good is your system compared to the Frex GP? I can get the full frex gp system for £2700
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

smoothy wrote:Many thanks for the prices

When I have some money I will make this setup. I would by everything new.

There is a lot on that list I wouldn't get, I am not too hard core and believe I can make a good compromise and still have total immersion.

But how good is your system compared to the Frex GP? I can get the full frex gp system for £2700
The actuators perform better with mine (more responsive, I have both systems) and I have safety features that prevent actuator damage that the Frex does NOT have. Plus, I support a lot more software - the Frex drivers are so slack to update a lot of people have given up on them - it is MUCH more worthwhile using x-sim and SCN5's as you'll get a hell of a lot more game support.

Frex hardware, hands down, is total crap. It is under-engineered, fraught with technical issues and poorly made. Frex will NOT address these issues, once Shige (the lead enigineer) has gained interest in a new toy or peripheral he'll ditch others without properly finishing them and never revisit them when they start falling apart in peoples hands. You will send email after email and not get responses for weeks, and when you do if you ever have to send anything back to them (which is 99% guaranteed you will), you'll spend a fortune on postage charges. So far I've been very disappointed with the Handbrake (this is made like a 10 year old did it), HShift+ (which has springs that break, and push switches that dont stay down) and actuator system (because of their ommissions 3 of my actuators broke, they replaced 2 but then provided no further support so I was left £300 out of pocket and had to rewrite their software to fix the problems with it) - also the simconbase controller is TERRIBLE, it does not even integrate static discharge protection and can fry simply by knocking the power lead or USB lead going into it - I've had 2 go and it took Frex EIGHT WEEKS to replace the second one, eight weeks without a simconmotion. I'd avoid them like the plague if I was you!! Their hardware is extremely overrated by some people, mainly as they have no idea what other options there are out there. BTW in terms of the frame and motion system the ISE solution is superior, not the flimsy, overpriced, unadjustable Piece of Crap that Frex make:-

http://www.ise-sims.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is up to you really, frex do the new canopy but at 1/3rd of the resolution of my screens, plus you dont have the stereoscopy issue that the separation is wrong in areas due to the screen curve - I also have uniform light distribution, I've tried rear-projected curved screens before and IMO a triple rig is much better.

I've only added hardware that I considered worthwhile to the immersion, I would not add anything else but can honestly say if you remove any one little single aspect of this system you really notice it - it is not overkill in this respect, every little part makes a huge difference when put together. I'll put some detailed videos up on Youtube soon and you'll be able to see more what it's about :).
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
smoothy
Sharp Eyed Eagle!
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:32 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by smoothy »

Many thanks for your reply once again

So do you actually make these simulators for a living?

Is that link you posted your companies website?
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

smoothy wrote:Many thanks for your reply once again

So do you actually make these simulators for a living?

Is that link you posted your companies website?
Hi again,

I dont make them for a living no, I am a Software Engineer but in unrelated fields. I put together my own SCN5-based software / hardware solution to replace the Frex system for myself, as I reached the end of my teather with it - it failed constantly so I devised a simple RS485 based replacement and made it more robust. It was actually through all this (and my complaints of all the problems in the Frex forum, which were persistantly removed by Shige T as he tried to cover the issues up) that I was contacted by ISE as they wanted a motion solution for their platform, and were also having a multitude of similar problems with Frex so desperately wanted to avoid having to deal with them - so I refined mine and now they are using it - they're in the States and I'm here in the UK. Before this I knew nothing of ISE, but I wish I did as I would have definately bought the race frame from them over the Frex cockpit - the main reason for this is the adjustability and rigidity. The Frex frame is flimsy and made with very cheap strut profile brackets, there is a lot of wobble and flex, and above all not remotely adjustable once fixed for one person (without spending _hours_ getting it right) - the ISE platform on the other hand has been designed by a team of mechanical engineers to a very high standard, is totally rigid and is highly adjustable in a matter of moments, you only need to look closely at the pictures to see the immediate differences - the mechanics of the motion sim part are more elegant too. As an aside, they are currently working on an FFB ECCI wheel which will be more powerful and to a higher standard than even the Frex wheel - I'll be getting my hands on one for sure when this is available.
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
User avatar
Hornet
Cross Eyed!
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 1:42 pm

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by Hornet »

Chris
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo !

My setup is so simple, when I see your Big Machine!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_p69UwOsNU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://picasaweb.google.sk/1ziakpeter/SoaringSimFisheye#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Congratulations.
Peter
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

Hornet wrote:Chris
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo !

My setup is so simple, when I see your Big Machine!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_p69UwOsNU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://picasaweb.google.sk/1ziakpeter/SoaringSimFisheye#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Congratulations.
Peter
Thanks Peter!

You may remeber we've spoken a bit on the Stereo3D projectors forums in the past :) I love your soaring rig btw, I've seen the various stages of development and looks complicated enough to me! One thing I certainly don't have is a 'real' cockpit :shock:
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
Xerion
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:22 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by Xerion »

Bah my possible source for xr-10x had only 1 and it was already sold, they just forgot to take it down from the site :(
Current Rig: Intel i7 920 @ 4.0GHz, 6 GB ram, Geforce GTX670 -> Nvidia 3D Vision on LG 47LM615S (interlaced, spoofing Zalman EDID) + Oculus Rift
Control Peripherals: Novint Falcon, Razer Hydra, P5 Glove, XBOX 360 Controller, Wiimote, Saitek X52 Pro (flight control system), Logitech G27 (racing wheel), Logitech G15 (keyboard), Razer Naga Molten Edition (mouse)
User avatar
martinlandau
Certif-Eyed!
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:44 pm
Location: United States

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by martinlandau »

Xerion wrote:Bah my possible source for xr-10x had only 1 and it was already sold, they just forgot to take it down from the site :(
Xerion, I know chrisjarram seems to have some inside info on the new 120hz veiwsonics about to be released, but why not wait a tiny bit until they come out and see how they perform in real world testing? Perhaps we all will be surprised by even more reduction in ghosting/crosstalk with the new projectors. Perhaps not, but with the release date literally on top of us, why rush into something now? I too was heavily eyeing some of the mp720's and xr's - is the xr10x the only ones that work? What about the newer higher resolution sharp projectors? Anyways I would like to see some comparisons of that new viewsonic compared to the mp720's before I make a final decision. Maybe they will surprise and include the electronics to run at higher video bandwidth and give more mhz.
The futures so bright, I gotta wear shades!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDdI_sfNop8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image
Xerion
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:22 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by Xerion »

martinlandau wrote:
Xerion wrote:Bah my possible source for xr-10x had only 1 and it was already sold, they just forgot to take it down from the site :(
Xerion, I know chrisjarram seems to have some inside info on the new 120hz veiwsonics about to be released, but why not wait a tiny bit until they come out and see how they perform in real world testing? Perhaps we all will be surprised by even more reduction in ghosting/crosstalk with the new projectors. Perhaps not, but with the release date literally on top of us, why rush into something now? I too was heavily eyeing some of the mp720's and xr's - is the xr10x the only ones that work? What about the newer higher resolution sharp projectors? Anyways I would like to see some comparisons of that new viewsonic compared to the mp720's before I make a final decision. Maybe they will surprise and include the electronics to run at higher video bandwidth and give more mhz.
Chris' info says the viewsonic uses checkerboard, so you will lose half of the resolution. Also I already have 1 XR-10X, so if I could get 2 more and a triplehead2go I could do what Chris does, only with different projectors.
Current Rig: Intel i7 920 @ 4.0GHz, 6 GB ram, Geforce GTX670 -> Nvidia 3D Vision on LG 47LM615S (interlaced, spoofing Zalman EDID) + Oculus Rift
Control Peripherals: Novint Falcon, Razer Hydra, P5 Glove, XBOX 360 Controller, Wiimote, Saitek X52 Pro (flight control system), Logitech G27 (racing wheel), Logitech G15 (keyboard), Razer Naga Molten Edition (mouse)
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

Xerion wrote:
Chris' info says the viewsonic uses checkerboard, so you will lose half of the resolution. Also I already have 1 XR-10X, so if I could get 2 more and a triplehead2go I could do what Chris does, only with different projectors.
That's right, and there are 2 big advantages to using 3 projectors instead - firstly, you get access to triple XGA resolution, and the GTX2xx series graphics cards cand handle this in stereo mode easily. I run crysis at full detail / full 3072x768 and it's very playable. More importantly, each individual screen can be smaller therefore much brighter - v important when using shutters, particularly in games with dark scenes like most shooters.
On the subject of FPS games, I've been experimenting more with these screens recently (along with the TN Games FPS vest and Novint Falcon) and the results with nvidia 3dvision are incredible! It is the most immersive gameplay experience (next to the driving games) I have ever had; with the correct game FOV (and 180 degree real FOV), seperation and convergence settings you are 100% 'in' the game - a very surreal experience. I'll be posting vids of this (and the racing games etc) on Youtube when I have more time - I'd also like to hack some motion offsets out of the shooters to lightly simulate a walking motion with the seat actuators (and a 'flick' when strafeing etc) - this will come next :D
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
Xerion
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:22 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by Xerion »

Man I want such a setup too, but where to get the appropriate projectors, preferably more xr-10x's :( It's also annoying that perhaps many more projectors do actually work at 85Hz, just nobody has ever been in a position to test them.
Current Rig: Intel i7 920 @ 4.0GHz, 6 GB ram, Geforce GTX670 -> Nvidia 3D Vision on LG 47LM615S (interlaced, spoofing Zalman EDID) + Oculus Rift
Control Peripherals: Novint Falcon, Razer Hydra, P5 Glove, XBOX 360 Controller, Wiimote, Saitek X52 Pro (flight control system), Logitech G27 (racing wheel), Logitech G15 (keyboard), Razer Naga Molten Edition (mouse)
d21justin
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:26 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by d21justin »

Definitely Ready for those youtube videos. Keep us posted.
User avatar
The_Nephilim
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 764
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am
Location: 3rd Stone from the Sun

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by The_Nephilim »

Wow that is VERY cool Congratulations on your Setup.. I had made a 1 projector setup looking to get 2 more as well for triple screen gaming..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVIwGGx ... annel_page" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Also I was looking into getting 3 HDTV 3D Ready sets instead of projectors??

Also here is a list of the Projectors that are 3D compatible:

http://www.3dmovielist.com/projectors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


the XR10x is VERY Difficult to find. Sharp had replaced them with the XR10XL but that Proj. does NOT do 85HZ..
Intel i7 10700K @ 5.1 GHZ / ASRock Phantom 4 AC/4 Z590 Motherboard / G. SKILL Trident Z 64GB - 4000mhz / eVGA 2080Ti 11gb / SoundBlaster Z / HP Reverb G2 / HOTAS Cougar / Thrustmaster MFD's / Buttkicker Gamer 2 / :shutter
alexpez
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:24 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by alexpez »

Hi Chris,

Im an iracing subsriber and sometime rfactor tinkerer, and this thread is exactly what ive been looking for since i first picked up some ed glasses a few years ago.

I was wondering how well the projectors cope with the keystoning? Are they carrying out digital keystone correction? Also, have you noticed any increase in output lag with the added electronics between your gfx card and your display (ive read that dlps are pretty slow at actually processing an image and getting it on the screen).

Ive had a quick play with a single very wide resolution for rfactor (that could be fed through Triplehead2go), and switching on its multiple viewport mode, and noticed that the intersections of the view frustums seemed to overlap pretty badly (ie. the left and right eye separation at the intersections of the screens overlaps incorrectly with the next view frustum). Im a 3d hobbyist so im not sure of the correct terms for what im actually seeing, but have you noticed that too? With a single planar view from the games theres no problem, but id like to find a solution to the edge blending of the 3 frustums when using 3 angled screens.

Im wonding whether you could build an even more immersive, low cost cave like this, make the centre screen larger (which may require a move to rear projection), say 3meters, driver sat 1.5m from it, and have the 2 side screens (also 3m each) at 90 degrees to it to allow for even more peripheral vision. The rfactor software will correctly render the 3 separate viewports, but the only problem i see at the moment is the frustum edge blending in stereo 3d when rendering multiple viewports on 1 output (which the triplehead2go then splits up). Do you think the resolution supported by the projectors would be sufficient over such a large space? and what about brightness?

One other thing id like to add would be a head tracker, such as the freetrack or trackIR, limited to only x,y,z movement (as opposed to any rotation), so that when you move your head the view changes to match it. Cant wait to see a vide of your setup in action.

Great thread! Ive been wondering how to put it all together for a while! Now all we need is for iracing to support multiple viewports as well.

pez
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

alexpez wrote:Hi Chris,

Im an iracing subsriber and sometime rfactor tinkerer, and this thread is exactly what ive been looking for since i first picked up some ed glasses a few years ago.

I was wondering how well the projectors cope with the keystoning? Are they carrying out digital keystone correction? Also, have you noticed any increase in output lag with the added electronics between your gfx card and your display (ive read that dlps are pretty slow at actually processing an image and getting it on the screen).

Ive had a quick play with a single very wide resolution for rfactor (that could be fed through Triplehead2go), and switching on its multiple viewport mode, and noticed that the intersections of the view frustums seemed to overlap pretty badly (ie. the left and right eye separation at the intersections of the screens overlaps incorrectly with the next view frustum). Im a 3d hobbyist so im not sure of the correct terms for what im actually seeing, but have you noticed that too? With a single planar view from the games theres no problem, but id like to find a solution to the edge blending of the 3 frustums when using 3 angled screens.

Im wonding whether you could build an even more immersive, low cost cave like this, make the centre screen larger (which may require a move to rear projection), say 3meters, driver sat 1.5m from it, and have the 2 side screens (also 3m each) at 90 degrees to it to allow for even more peripheral vision. The rfactor software will correctly render the 3 separate viewports, but the only problem i see at the moment is the frustum edge blending in stereo 3d when rendering multiple viewports on 1 output (which the triplehead2go then splits up). Do you think the resolution supported by the projectors would be sufficient over such a large space? and what about brightness?

One other thing id like to add would be a head tracker, such as the freetrack or trackIR, limited to only x,y,z movement (as opposed to any rotation), so that when you move your head the view changes to match it. Cant wait to see a vide of your setup in action.

Great thread! Ive been wondering how to put it all together for a while! Now all we need is for iracing to support multiple viewports as well.

pez
Hi Pez,

Sorry for the delay.

Some answers:-

1) There is no problem whatsoever with keystonig or frustrums here, the keystoning is digital yes, but it really is completely seemless when the projected images are 'glued' together. Also, there is NO problem with frustrums etc, it looks exactly as you would expect, as one seemless large projected 3d image - obviously it is important that eye level is as central to the screens as possible, but with screens this size that is not an issue. In terms of using bigger screens, there are 3 disadvatages:-

a) You need a massive amount more space, which is somewhat impractical.
b) You lose a massive amount of your projected light output, which is very important when using shutters as you are losing half the light output as it is. I decided on 1m * 75cm for each screen as this is a great balance for light output / image sharpness and contrast ratio, gives a perfect amount of eye relief and provides a full 180 degree FOV.
c) As above, it becomes very difficult to get eye level at the center of each screen. With my rig the height adjustment has been tuned so you are looking at it dead on.

I do have a TIR4 which I use with this rig, and again because the screens are smaller I can actually plonk it on top of the center screen and it is within good operating range - using bigger screens this would be impossible unless 1) you reverse mount it, which you cannot do practically if you are using a simulator setup, or 2) you mount it on some long arm extended towards your head, which is messy and impractical.

I have to be honest here, I've tried out many solutions with large screens (and cave like solutions you describe above) and this is the best all-rounder I have found. It gives a fully-immersive, high contrast, eye friendly result and is better than any kind of 3d cinema or themepark simulator ride I have been on (and I've been on a lot, including Race to Atlantis in Las Vegas which is considered to be the most realistic IMAX 3d cinema ride in the world! :). I'm sure maybe you could always go one better, but in a rig like this where Sooo many things depend on each other it has been very difficult to find this balance. I spent days making the screens for example after a hell of a lot of experimentation (I considered ALL the options here in 12 months or so prior to this).

In terms of the output lag, in order to use 85hz projectors properly with new 3d drivers and glasses technologies myself and a friend put together some custom electronics, which I'm happy to report as of the last few days he has now agreed to build to order (I've just put a post up about this you'll probably see in the latest topics) and it can be found here:-

http://nextstepsolutions.co.uk/home/node/11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Without this, this rig simply would not have been possible.

Hope this helps! :)
Chris J
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
chrisjarram
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by chrisjarram »

The_Nephilim wrote:Wow that is VERY cool Congratulations on your Setup.. I had made a 1 projector setup looking to get 2 more as well for triple screen gaming..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVIwGGx ... annel_page" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Also I was looking into getting 3 HDTV 3D Ready sets instead of projectors??

Also here is a list of the Projectors that are 3D compatible:

http://www.3dmovielist.com/projectors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


the XR10x is VERY Difficult to find. Sharp had replaced them with the XR10XL but that Proj. does NOT do 85HZ..

Hiya - Yep, been there, done that! :) I've had 3 xr10x's and 3 xr10xl's now. I actually found the results to be slightly more natural from the BENQ's, and the bulbs are much, much cheaper which is why I got rid of 2 of my 10x's and stuck with the BENQ's (sold ALL my xl's when I realised they were no good for 85hz 3D). I still now have 1 x XR10x which I use with a seperate 80" electric widescreen for watching 3d movies like Polar Express, JTTCOTE etc - its better suited to this amd great when I have a bunch of people round all using CrystalEyes :)
XFX GTX 280 XXX,BFG 7900GTX,Q6600,4gbXMS2,3TB RAID,2xWD Raptors,MountainMods U2-UFO Case,1KW Thermaltake PSU, 3x BenQ MP720p,Full active sim setup inc actuators,shakers,wind,THX sound.CrystalEyes 3,6 wireless ED w/ hipower emitter.
Xerion
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:22 am

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by Xerion »

The successfully tested BenQ's don't seem that easy to find anymore either, or I just suck at searching :/
Current Rig: Intel i7 920 @ 4.0GHz, 6 GB ram, Geforce GTX670 -> Nvidia 3D Vision on LG 47LM615S (interlaced, spoofing Zalman EDID) + Oculus Rift
Control Peripherals: Novint Falcon, Razer Hydra, P5 Glove, XBOX 360 Controller, Wiimote, Saitek X52 Pro (flight control system), Logitech G27 (racing wheel), Logitech G15 (keyboard), Razer Naga Molten Edition (mouse)
User avatar
The_Nephilim
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 764
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:38 am
Location: 3rd Stone from the Sun

Re: Home simulator & Nvidia 3dVision DLP Projector TRUTHS!

Post by The_Nephilim »

Hi Chris,

I would like to get some info if you wouldnt mind.. I am looking into getting a triple Screen system but doing a Rear Projection system. now I am looking at the Pics of your Screen Frame, Did you build that or buy it somewhere??

I need something similar that will hold the Translucent Screen in place No Frame around the Screen. I plan on using something like how yours is?? Any Info on it will be great?? I have a few ideas any Drawings of it??

I also would like to know what angle did you set the 2 end Screens at off the Middle??
Intel i7 10700K @ 5.1 GHZ / ASRock Phantom 4 AC/4 Z590 Motherboard / G. SKILL Trident Z 64GB - 4000mhz / eVGA 2080Ti 11gb / SoundBlaster Z / HP Reverb G2 / HOTAS Cougar / Thrustmaster MFD's / Buttkicker Gamer 2 / :shutter
Post Reply

Return to “General Stereoscopic 3D Discussion”