Hey Guys,

Frex GP in Japan, the makers of the PC motion simulator and many other amazing products have just released a one piece canopy projection screen that covers your entire field of view. It's $1365. http://www.frex.com/gp/ click on new product to get to the page and scroll down the bottom of the screen to see an embedded youtube clip. Totally mind blowing.

I read that it uses an acrylic screen, are these good for active and passive 3d?

This screen with a track ir 4 pro and there motion simulator with haptic feedback pedals and steering wheel would be incredible.

Wow! Looks cool. Would be great to combine this with a S3D setup.

Be warned - Frex are one of the WORST companies in the world to deal with... they have countless issues with their products, treat their customers like dirt (there are a lot of horror stories out there) and refuse to address any issues. The screen has been in development for a long time now - they have also done tests with eDim glasses, it looks nice enough but rear projection can be a little space impractical for some people. I wonder what the guy that 'patented' the jDome would have to say about this Speaking of which, this is all this is - a slightly better quality version of the jDome.. the fact it is 6 times the cost and not folding however leaves a few questions! Frex hardware has always been overpriced for what it is.

The picture on the Frex site is a little misleading, All you get is that white bit of plastic as opposed to the entire canopy. Think for me its a miss but others might like it...

In terms of trackIR4 for this application, it doesnt work well and is not needed for a surround screen for obvious reasons (it detracts from the immersion, why need tracking when you can see all around you when you move your head anyway?). Head tracking does not work well when being shaken around in a motion sim either (been there, tried it all . Incidentally, the Frex pedals have no haptic feedback - they emulate it but not particularly convincingly.

If they were a trustworthy company and priced things more realistically I would say go for it, but as it stands do so at your own risk!

That dome looks a lot like the half parabolic mirror used in the Sega arcade Hologram Time Traveler/Holosseum machine.. I wonder if it can be used to make a holographic image you can put your hand through like those old Sega machines.

Many thanks for your positive input,

I learned about the jdome a while back, it's an interesting idea and seems more immersive than the frex canopy. But unfortunately it's not a one piece screen like the frex one. This is why it's going to be 6x cheaper. But I do like the the fact that this jdome sit's on a metal frame that can be vertically adjusted for different game genres like fps, racing and flight sims.

I would use trackir as when you sit in front of one of these domes. Even though it is surrounding you, it still doesn't allow you to see downwards and upwards. From the videos I have seen like the racing one on the frex canopy page video. It shows what's being seen in front and around you. But say you were in a flight sim. Then it would be nice to look up at the over head of the glass canopy of your fighter jet and see a plane fly pass you. For this you need head tracking. The dome would show the plane coming at you, but you wouldn't see it pass right over your head without having head tracking. I wouldn't use head tracking at the same time with the motion simulator on either as all the bumping around and the screen point of view shaking about would make you really dizzy.

It says on their website the frex pedals are haptic. They released a newer kind some time ago but still offer the old style ones.

At that price, it does not include the projector. If you use a any projector to project on such a dome from behind, some of the picture will be out of focus.

Not if you use sol7 which is an image warping software for $150 but with this software you cannot do stereo 3d!

I did not means warping, I meant out of focus. When setting up a projector, you have to adjust the focus on it to get a sharp image. Focus depends on the distance between the projector and the screen. The edges of the screen are further away from the projector than the middle of the screen with this curved screen. That means that if you adjust focus to be perfect in the middle of the screen, it will be out-of-focus at the edges.

I see what you mean. If I was to get this dome I would use 3 projectors so you don't get any out of focus issues or distortion from the side and front views.

Hi again,

Noooooo... you don't want to use 3 projectors on a 1m pissy screen like that! The Frex canopy is highly overrated - and overpriced. How on earth would you stitch the images together convincingly? You need a simple triple flat screen approach (see my sim) for the best results - I've already experimented with domes and they didnt come close to 3 large projected steroscopic images, despite what my master bulls*****r Shige says on his site. He relies on people not knowing what else is out there and what the options are, and gets away with murder in this respect sometimes.

As an aside, you say it states on the Frex site their pedals are haptic - where does it say this? They've never been haptic as far as I know, and there have been no developments since simcaliper, pressure brake or vibebrake (none of which are haptic). I'd be interested to know as for most of the sims simconmotion operates with there simply is not the data coming out into memory mapped files to be able to accurately feed haptic pedals :-/

Chris

Hey Chris,

I will look into the haptic pedals and get back to you. I am sure it was frex that made them.

Maybe using three projectors on that frex canopy isn't so good but on other larger sized domes/canopies it is very possible. You can stitch the images together perfectly showing no seams from the lining of each projector using a software called SOL7 made by immersaview. This software normally costs $5000-$8000 but someone by the name of Andy from immersaview hangs out on a flight sim forum. I cannot remember the forum name, but he has been offering for the last few years a downgraded version for consumers that costs $275 that allows up to three projectors to be used per computer using TH2GO. Unfortunately this software does not work in stereo3d.

I would be willing to loose a lot (including S-3D) for such a great FOV. I also have played around with a dome long ago with Quake2 and I liked it very much.

The deal breaker for me is that I have grown so comfortable with 360 turning via HMD that sitting still would be painful.

Could you get 2 and close yourself inside? Would 360 FOV using 2 projectors and 2 domes be possible?

I always thought about this, I don't think it's possible with this frex canopy. But you could make your very own 2 halves and piece them together but you would need about 4-6 projectors to not get any distortion around the side angles of the screen. Then you need 2 computers as SOL7 image warping only works for three projectors per computer, so you need 2 licenses of the software. One for each computer.

Not to mention simulation software that supports it. In terms of losing s3d for the FOV - that in my opinion is absolute madness I know of the software around to do it, but that was my point - no S3D . If you check out my rig in the other thread, you get a full 180 degree FOV and the vertical is filled also when wearing 3d glasses, all with perfectly perspective-correct s3d. It is by far the best experience - I've experimented with a lot and IMO a dome does not even come close :-/ Guess it is up to the individual though, I'll probably be buying a jDome when they're available anyway just because of the great cost, as much as anything.

So, you'd need at least 6 projectors to do a proper S3D simulation with this screen (isn't it 'curved', anyway?), AND you'd have to write all the necessary deriver software all by yourself? When I get one of those multi-million dollar military flights simulation contracts, I might give them a call... so far, I have better uses for $8 000.

For those of you who are interested in the FREX canopy screen, I have been building a small motion flight simulator using FSX with this screen. Edge distortion and focus issues are not at all a problem with this screen as they impact on your peripheral view. I use the canopy screen with the just released Optoma HD20 full HD DLP (a fantastic bargain for US$999) with TrackIR 5....and I am delighted by the results. I have been testing the Immersaview SOL7 image warping software to correct the distortion and although I need to do more testing with the trial version before I decide to buy, at this stage I am not convinced it is required. The canopy screen is kind of expensive but when combined with a good qaulity projector and TrackIR I think the result is better than any other projector or multi screen set up i have ever used. I have attached a link to some pictures of my set up on Flickr.

Mark

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8602201@N0 ... 152525903/

Re: "Haptic pedals." There might be a patent governing this idea held by Immersion Corporation. I have the idea that Immersion HAS made available at times in the past controller boards which could be used as "Force Feedback" channels 2, 3, and perhaps even 4 in sims like rFactor (I'm told this software was used to drive "feedback pedals" in some NASCAR type arcade/coin simulators here in the US.

I looked into buying one or two of these boards, but found the cost quite prohibitive-- ~$1200 (then) for "starter kit (including just one board), and that was perhaps five years back.

"Haptic" can mean a lot of things, however, and patents may or may not cover all of them.

I DO believe FREX has available a pair of brake pedal products which might be what you are talking about: a "vibro" brake (non-patentable, IMO), and a pressure brake (hydro brake).

I conjured up a hydraulic, "pressure-sensor brake" of my own quite a long while back (several years before FREX), and I can safely say it's very realistic, even without any added "vibration" option. Having said that, note that the idea is not original with me--there was at least one DIY builder who's own stuff pre-dated mine by about five years.

A "vibro brake" might well do everything a "Haptic brake" would do for you (and it might even do it better)...but as a manufacturer, FREX cannot make those claims without running afoul of the Immersion patent(s)...so as far as I know, they don't try to.

Nor would I, were I manufacturing something similar myself.


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As to the FREX dome/screen: I suspect you are discussing a "glass dome" product they sell (I want to say covers perhaps 1/3 of a sphere, viewed from inside)...and it incorporates a lip around the perimeter perhaps 2" wide (allowing it to be mounted to some sort of flat, circular rim).

I agree that if it were used for rear projection there could well be some issues (issues of loss of focus, and increased dimness both, as the projected image was thrown further and further out toward the edge).

Focus would be difficult to address, given conventional projectors and lenses, but issues of dimness might be addressed using either graduated neutral density filters or (if it were a DLP projector), perhaps software algorithms to turn those "perimeter mirrors" on a given DLP chip on longer (thus allowing more light to the edge).

In any case, do know that brightness diminishes as a square of distance, which is why even some front projection images thrown onto curved screens can still suffer a bit from "dim corners."

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The "perfect" projection into a given dome would be a front projection...with the projection source located at exactly the same point in 3D space that the receptors (your eyes) would occupy. Obviously not possible unless you are "Superman" (and even he uses beta software )....so anything we do will necessarily involve some sort of compromise.

Having said that, I'm of the opinion that an image projected from just above the top of the head (into a spherical dome of...perhaps 4' radius or so), might be pretty convincing.


k

Welcome to the forum man! Cool setup.

Hello Kekewons, the Frex dome is made of plastic and although I expected problems with focus and uneven lighting in use this is not the case. Maybe my new Optoma HD DLP has a good depth of field but focus is not a problem and the edges of the dome are really in our peripheral vision so no big issue. I have tried the SOL7 warping software and still playing with the demo before deciding to buy but really I do not notice the distortion as the centre of the feild of view is fine. My projector is mounted high (see the photos) and tilted down so that it tries to project onto the best plane through the dome for all round performance. Overall I think this is a great solution and I am very happy with it.
cheers
Mark

I met with the SOL7 guys at Infocomm, they do have some nice software, but have you read all the material in this thread about dome projection?

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3690&hilit=dome

thanks Martin, will read this link. I worked some more on the sol7 software last night with the frex dome and it does produce imprssive results.