Geo-11 frame packing support

[SzLi]

Hi Everyone!
I am a newcomer to these forums, but I am sort of fan of 3D format, using DLP projectors dating back more than five years. But the bad PC 3D support, crappy Nvidia 3D vision implementation + paywall, low resolution, high input lag, convergence issues, never did it for me. Since the complete removal of 3D vision from 3D drivers I thought all hope is lost! However, the introduction of Geo-11 rekindled my interest, and here I would congratulate the developers for the amazing work!

I am a little bit tech savvy, and I thought maybe I can contribute something worth for the discussion that will make 3D more accessible: I want ask the developers of Geo-11 to add native support for the (hdmi) frame packed 3D protocol. At first glance this seems awfully complicated, but after some testing; I came up with a solution that it can be done without 3D vision completely! It will work on any GPU, plus a compatible HDMI device given proper Geo-11 support. Here come the details.

Step One: The user must set a custom resolution that confirm to the frame packed specifications, either through the graphics control panel or through the Custom Resolution Utility (CRU). Frame packed protocol as it turns out is nothing else than special a full top-bottom 3D mode with a blank space between the pictures. Here are the specs (https://etmriwi.home.xs4all.nl/forum/hd ... action.pdf) :
frame_packed_720p : resolution 1280x1470, 60Hz

• horizontal: 1280 active; 110 front, 40 sync, 220 back (1650 total)
  vertical: 1470 active; 5 front, 5 sync, 20 back (1500 total)

frame_packed_1080p : resolution 1920x2205, 24Hz/60Hz

• horizontal: 1920 active; 638 front, 44 sync, 148 back (2750 total)
  vertical: 2205 active; 4 front, 5 sync, 36 back (2250 total)

The frame packed 60Hz 1080p mode is nonstandard, I needed to use CVT reduced blank specs for success.
- After you set these and your device accepts them; they you most likely be able to enable frame packed mode if your device supports the feature.
- I have couple projectors, I was able to get 3D with above custom resolutions:

• Benq W1400 (old hdmi 1.4a projector), 1280x720p@60Hz frame packed, 1920x1080@24Hz frame packed
  Acer GM550 (1080p 120Hz projector), 1280x720p@60Hz frame packed, 1920x1080@60Hz frame packed
  Benq W1720 (faux-4K projector), 1280x720p@60Hz frame packed, 1920x1080@60Hz frame packed, 1920x2160@60Hz top-bottom.

With the newer 120Hz DLP / 4K projectors basically anyone could have an amazing 3D experience; but you need the beefiest of GPU-s for this. 4K supersampling is pretty much a necessity to get the experience really amazing. Unfortunately Nvidia decided to remove DX11 and more 3D stuff from their graphics drivers at the time when people could get a real advantage of it!

Step Two: Geo-11 should add native support for the above resolutions, however, Geo-11 only needs to enforce the screen resolution, doesn't need to know the rest. The proper HDMI signal is handled by the video driver via the custom resolution above.
frame_packed_720p : force screen resolution 1280x1470; scale the left and right images to 1280x720. The put the left image on top, then a 30 pixel tall blank space, then put the right image on the bottom.
frame_packed_1080p : force screen resolution 1920x2205; scale the left and right images to 1920x1080. The put the left image on top, then a 45 pixel tall blank space, then put the right image on the bottom.
That's it, it is basically top-bottom full mode. However I want to emphasize that the scaling of the game's resolution to 720p/1080p is a necessity to take advantage to supersampling AA. I think Geo-11 and 3Dmigoto have the capability to do this.

Then after these have been done, 3D gaming steps could be:
0. Set 1280x1470 custom resolution in the graphics drivers (once).
1. Install a DX11 Game and its HelixMod fixes.
2. Install Geo-11 and select direct_mode = frame_packed_720p or something like it.
3. Launch the game. Enable 3D on the projector/device. You get 720p frame packed 3D.

Then, first time like ever, 720p/1080p frame packed 3D gaming just work, universally.

[Obveron]

This is interesting. I hadn't tried forcing my 3dtv into framepacked mode by using a custom resolotion. I tried using the numbers you suggested but didn't have luck.

I'm testing on a Samsung 1080p 3DTV, I didn't have luck with 1080p60 framepacking, but I did get 1080p24 and 1080p30 framepacking. 1080p30 framepacking is the holy grail for me, as it could work as a gaming resolution.

I tested this without Nvidia 3d drivers installed, you can easily put your 3dtv into 3d mode without extra drivers. All is needed is custom resolutions that trigger framepacking, and a wrapper to frame the content properly.


If @bo3bber could add a couple options to output to Geo-11 to render a compatible output for custom framepacking.

720p framepacking: Full TAB with 30 blank lines in between top and bottom (1280 x 1470 frames)
1080p framepacking: Full TAB with 45 blank lines in between top and bottom (1920 x 2205 frames)

Here are some screenshots of custom resolutions that worked for me.

[SzLi]

Hi! I am glad you have succeeded forcing frame packed mode with a 3DTV, so I am hopeful that this works more generally.

Using my projectors I found that 1080p frame packed 60Hz requires HDMI 1.4b (i.e. 1920x1080p@120Hz compatible port) and for me it was limited to the bandwidth of a HDMI 1.4b signal. I had to use CVT Reduced Blank timings like this:

• horizontal: 1920 active; 48 front, 32 sync, 80 back (2080 total)
  vertical: 2205 active; 4 front, 5 sync, 36 back (2250 total)

[russellk]

Hi! I am glad you have succeeded forcing frame packed mode with a 3DTV, so I am hopeful that this works more generally.

Using my projectors I found that 1080p frame packed 60Hz requires HDMI 1.4b (i.e. 1920x1080p@120Hz compatible port) and for me it was limited to the bandwidth of a HDMI 1.4b signal. I had to use CVT Reduced Blank timings like this:

• horizontal: 1920 active; 48 front, 32 sync, 80 back (2080 total)
  vertical: 2205 active; 4 front, 5 sync, 36 back (2250 total)

I finally tried this on my BenQ X3000i. The custom resolution worked and the projector allowed me to manually enable frame packed 3d mode.
I'm not 100% sure if 3d was working properly as I didn't notice the DLP sync flash for the glasses, but the projector thought 3d was turned on.
I'll probably play around with this at some point, it would be amazing if we could use this and not rely on the Nvidia DX9 path that Geo-11 uses.

[Flint Eastwood]

frame_packed_1080p : resolution 1920x2205, 24Hz

• horizontal: 1920 active; 638 front, 44 sync, 148 back (2750 total)
  vertical: 2205 active; 4 front, 5 sync, 36 back (2250 total)

I tried this on my Benq W2000.
I was able to switch to 3D Frame-Packing mode manually on the beamer. And the DLP glasses are working correctly too.
To test it I prepared a 1920x2205 image with 45px blank space between Left and Right.
But I get some weird scaling. The image is squeezed a bit, so I see a small black border at the bottom of the upper image and a small black border at the top of the lower image.
As if the beamer doesn't want such a big black border between the images.
I don't have this problem when FramePacking is enabled by the BluRay-Player or with 3DTV-Play.
Maybe that is, because the VIC is not sent this way and I have to enable Frame Packing manually !?!?

[SzLi]

Every time I tried this a had to manually enable Frame packing through the dedicated menu in the projector, first it reports the custom resolution set. I think 1080p@24Hz 720p@60Hz should work one way or the other: but when you do not set the signal format exactly as the projector expects you may get a weird image in 3D mode. In practice the GPU send a larger "image" as the signal and the values "front, sync, back" are the extra "pixels". You may need to play around with those numbers. Of course a Blu-Ray player knows the exact signal to send...

russellk: I am curious about the X3000i, could you please test that it accepts 1920x2160@60Hz (CVT reduced blank) natively, and can the top-bottom 3D mode engaged then? This actually works for my BenQ W1720, and yes it's amazing.

[Flint Eastwood]

... You may need to play around with those numbers. Of course a Blu-Ray player knows the exact signal to send...

Well I played a bit with the parameters but I got no different result. The Benq W2000 seems not to make a difference with the black shoulders of the signal. I can use the official settings from HDMI specification and I can use reduced blanking - I always get the same picture.
But I think, I know now, what the W2000 does.
As you can see, when I send a picture with 1920x2205 with 45px blank space between, I get black borders at the top and the bottom and you can see the shift between L and R. (My cellphone does terrible shots in darkness)

IMG_20230126_225313.jpg

IMG_20230126_225135.jpg

IMG_20230126_225113.jpg

The Top border is 8px and the bottom border is 7px: That makes 45px-8px-7px = 30 px !
Strange thing is that 30px blank space should only be used for 720p FramePacking.
So the W2000 scales the incoming resolution (1920x2205) to 1920x2190 and uses 30px blank space, when FramePacking is manually selected in the 3D menu. Maybe this is a firmware problem. But the W2000 is EOL on the Benq website, I don't think they will change this behavior just for me.

So when I make a test picture with 30px blank space (1920x2190), rescale it to 1920x2205 and send it to the W2000, then it fits perfectly. The scaling back and forth introduces some vertical unsharpness, so it is not like using the native resolution, but it works.

IMG_20230126_225653.jpg

IMG_20230126_225709.jpg

Here are my test-images, if somebody has a similar issue and wants to test:

S3D0033_FramePackingTest2205.jpg

S3D0033_FramePackingTest2190.jpg

S3D0033_FramePackingTest2190_scaled_to2205.jpg

[russellk]

russellk: I am curious about the X3000i, could you please test that it accepts 1920x2160@60Hz (CVT reduced blank) natively, and can the top-bottom 3D mode engaged then? This actually works for my BenQ W1720, and yes it's amazing.

Interesting! I'll give that a go this weekend. I know it's not a supported resolution and the x3000i doesn't let you manually engage 3d except at specific resolutions. Will be interesting to see if that works.

[russellk]

Doesn't seem to work for me, 3d is greyed out on the projector menu so I can't select top-bottom.

[SzLi]

Doesn't seem to work for me, 3d is greyed out on the projector menu so I can't select top-bottom.

It was worth a try, Benq managed to lock down the firmware it seems. This hidden Tob-Bottom full mode might be limited to Benq W1720/TK800M series of projectors. However not all roses here either, because W1720 have poor native contrast in 3D, and sometimes develops vertical split screen... As per image processing goes the frame sequential/frame packed/top-bottom full modes are very similar; they could include a Top-Bottom full mode via a firmware update, but they just won't.

Flint Eastwood: My old Benq W1400 accepts the forced 24Hz frame packed signal as is (but only according to the HDMI spec). I support your assessment that it might be a bug in the firmware. You could also try to force 720p frame packed out of curiosity.

Offtopic Note: For W1720, the 1080p@120Hz frame-sequential mode also works with geo-11 (requires serious Nvidia DCH driver fixes, 3D vision pyramid, EDID override 'OTM3032' with 517.48 driver, RTX 3080Ti). Inconvenience aside, geo-11 runs somehow worse by ~18% in frame-sequential compared to Tob-Bottom full mode (The Witcher 3, 4K render resolution). geo-11 actually can downsample from 3840x2160p, 3200x1800p, 2560x1440p, 1920x1080p render resolutions to 1920x2160p TB full natively right now. (The proposal of this thread to enable this behavior in geo-11 with frame packed resolutions.)

[Obveron]

(The proposal of this thread to enable this behavior in geo-11 with frame packed resolutions.)

I'm not sure how to get bo3bber to see this thread. I wonder if he would be interested in tweaking geo-11 to support this type of framepacked output.

[3DNovice]

FWIW, those that are using Nvidia's stereoscopic drivers, you can use this solution

1080p60hz HDMI active&passive output without 3DTV Play! viewtopic.php?t=22520

alternate thread on Reddit

1080p60hz HDMI active&passive output without 3DTV Play! https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comment ... hout_3dtv/

I've no idea if this works in conjunction with using Geo-11, but my guess is, that it would.

Of course a purely Geo-11 solution would be much more desirable