What is the Best VR now, Valve index, Vive Cosmos?

[RAGEdemon]

Is the Vive Pro 3 out yet? ^_^. In all honestly, having a huge blast with the Vive Pro 2 and the RTX 4090. I can actually USE that 5K resolution in VR now ^_^ (a lot more actually )

I'm so jealous! Well done!

[helifax]

In all honestly, having a huge blast with the Vive Pro 2 and the RTX 4090.

So you can confirm that the newest drivers and RTX 4090 work with ge0-11, dx9, Vulkan and OpenGL on 3D Vision monitors as well?

BTW, you do know about the power adapters melting, I hope. Here's a video, just in case you are using it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NGUov5Zb_0

The power adaptor melting is a very weird one... as in, the same issue exists on current 6/8 pin ones IF you don't plug them correctly and then bend/stretch them. Look at the Gamers Nexus channel where Steve tortured one to the point of crazy and he could not get it to melt.
I have zero issue so far and I am overclocking the card up to 550W constantly. But mine is an FE card ^_^ (managed to actually get an FE card for once!).

I haven't checked anything related to 3DVision yet, it's on my list for testing stuff But lately (this year) a lot of personal things (and drama) has happened I have these all cool new toys that I would have died for in the past and soooo damn little time (Time is the No1 enemy I tell you!!!)

[helifax]

Is the Vive Pro 3 out yet? ^_^. In all honestly, having a huge blast with the Vive Pro 2 and the RTX 4090. I can actually USE that 5K resolution in VR now ^_^ (a lot more actually )

I'm so jealous! Well done!

Believe it or not, I actually got the invite to buy an FE card through GeForce Experience on the 14th of October ) (The Nvidia's Verified Program ^_^)

I'll upload this screenshot that I have for posterity )

GFE.jpg

I am now still waiting for the EK Waterblock for this GPU which hopefully will arrive this month ) (But to be frank, you don't need water cooling the GPU. It is very very cool on the air cooler! Unless you want to go for the aesthetics (1.5/2 slots vs 3.5 slots and overall a lot lower temps & vertical mounting if you want that, but since I have other PCIE cards inside, that is not my thing)... and since I have the 2nd loop ready and waiting minus the block, I will go that route as always ^_^)

[whyme466]

Sony has opened a small window to sign up to preorder PS VR2. See https://www.playstation.com/en-us/ps-vr ... r:register.

@helifax - I suggest playing Lone Echo 2 using its highest resolution settings. This is the only VR game I have played where my 3080Ti was not enough to drive the great Vive Pro 2 using highest in-game resolution settings and 120% scaling (game still looks incredible with Medium settings, however).

[3DNovice]

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[helifax]

Steve tortured one to the point of crazy and he could not get it to melt.

It seems that Steve has had success at making a few melt and has done an in depth failure analysis by outsourcing to a failure analysis lab.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig2px7ofKhQ

Indeed If you insert it like 40% and also tilt it and put some debris in the connector as well )
I mean... wow... just wow... I am amazed the card even managed to but with 40% of the contact on the POWER connector )
This is not something new... I saw PCIE and Molex connecters burned before like this... if you don't get a good physical connection this will always happen...

[whyme466]

Note that Levitation, a community created 3-4 hour VR campaign for Half-Life: Alyx has just been released - see https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2881604879. It has been receiving very positive reviews.

For Vive Pro 2 users, the automatic brightness setting should be disabled whenever the Vive Console is updated, in my opinion. As mentioned previously, the variable automatic lighting setting can cause problems in some games. See https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/ ... _the_vive/ for reference. The current data files have a slightly different structure now, but the variable names remain the same.

[whyme466]

Sony is now accepting general preorders for PS VR2 - see https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/9/2350 ... invitation.

[whyme466]

Received and briefly test my Varjo Aero HMD. In my opinion, with a 3080Ti, the Aero is brighter and has better image quality (slight geometric distortion at far edges of FOV), but less vibrant color display than Vive Pro 2. My biggest issue with the Aero is motion stuttering during gaming - and changing Aero resolution does not improve motion artifacts enough. When Aero is adjusted to provide similar apparent resolution as VP2, the Vive Pro 2 has much smoother in-game motion than the Aero. The Aero probably needs the next gen GPU to consistently show its strengths - or improved motion compensation software.

After getting a new VR PC including a 4090, I revisited my prior Aero vs Vive Pro 2 comparison. With the improved rendering power of the 4090, along with the very flexible Varjo base software for controlling headset rendering resolution, the Aero motion smoothness is much improved. It is now my favorite VR HMD - the clarity and resolution provided by the aspheric lenses are superb, especially when compared with Vive Pro 2's Fresnel bloom/god rays. The very slight edge distortion (not really noticeable in gaming, in my opinion) can disappear, depending upon Varjo base software settings.

After a lengthy session with the Aero, I noticed it felt a little unbalanced and front heavy (slightly uncomfortable). After a little search, I discovered https://www.studioformcreative.com/prod ... 0-gram-7oz. Also note that the HMD does NOT have an OFF switch, so I have been unplugging the breakout box power supply…

[RAGEdemon]

So PiMax's new crystal headset is about to be released for $1600.

https://pimax.com/crystal/

It interestingly comes with 2 lenses: One ofr high PPD medium FOV, and one for lower PPD but higher fov.

Resolution is ~3k x 3k per eye, QLED, 165Hz.

Also, there is a 12K headset in development...

So far I'm pretty happy with my G2, however these next gen headsets look tempting.

Apple is also apparently showing their headset soon, however I doubt it will be PCVR compatible...

[whyme466]

I suggest waiting for reviews of the new Pimax HMD outside edge optical distortion before committing. I never liked Pimax 8K’s optical distortion when moving one’s head, even when using low FOV settings. This lens distortion issue persists in multiple Pimax models (part of trade-off between use of aspherical versus Fresnel lens, and lens quality).

Note that the high fps modes for headsets like Vive Pro 2 and Crystal are interesting, but largely unusable. For high resolution HMDs like the Aero, even a 4090 cannot provide enough processing power to provide smooth 90 fps in-game motion without GOOD motion-smoothing algorithms and foveated rendering enabled, and some high res games like Lone Echo 2 still struggle.

[helifax]

Note that the high fps modes for headsets like Vive Pro 2 and Crystal are interesting, but largely unusable. For high resolution HMDs like the Aero, even a 4090 cannot provide enough processing power to provide smooth 90 fps in-game motion without GOOD motion-smoothing algorithms and foveated rendering enabled, and some high res games like Lone Echo 2 still struggle.

Strange... I believe you are using the Revive for LE2 right?
For the Vive Pro 2 while I hated their motion smoothing technique initially, now I love it ) I think it works better than even the SteamVR one on the Vive Pro 1 does.
However the Pro 2 in SteamVR goes to some 6000x6000 resolution on Auto Which is NOT what you want ) if you do the math and get the native HMD resolution x1.4 for barrel distort you get around 3400x3400ish SteamVR resolution for the Pro2. Anything above is supersampling and provides minimal benefit for a lot more compute power.

Also it matters a lot if you run the VP2 on 90Hz or 120Hz (120Hz seems to be busted across the board. I think it always was on cable and air. I had issues and high latency with that mode from day 1 even 2 years ago, so there is that ) ).
It also matters what CPU you have. The 4090 can bottleneck even the RTX 4090 (Believe me, I've seen it! I need to push close to 5.8Ghz on P cores to get away with it... for 350W.. no thanks )

I would still love some nice clear lenses for the VP2 though ^_^

[whyme466]

No - I am now using Varjo Aero (see my comments above) with Founder 4090 and i9-13900K. I noticed SteamVR’s recent change creating crazy scaling for the VP2 when I was switching back and forth between HMDs in my re-evaluation testing. Aero had the appropriate scaling in SteamVR, while VP2 scaling was more than twice as much as it should be. Note my Index controllers must be re-initialized in SteamVR every time the HMD switches - even though they are common configuration items in both setups.

[helifax]

No - I am now using Varjo Aero (see my comments above) with Founder 4090 and i9-13900K. I noticed SteamVR’s recent change creating crazy scaling for the VP2 when I was switching back and forth between HMDs in my re-evaluation testing. Aero had the appropriate scaling in SteamVR, while VP2 scaling was more than twice as much as it should be. Note my Index controllers must be re-initialized in SteamVR every time the HMD switches - even though they are common configuration items in both setups.

So... if the Aero worth it on top of the Vive Pro 2? Meaning if I would compare Pro 2 vs Aero, does the Aero justifies paying another 2£ on top the Pro 2 to get it?
I know all the specs and tech and stuff, but is it like Vive Pro 1 with Mod lenses but better resolution and less SDE or should I stick with the Pro 1 mod lenses (if I don't care about more resolution and SDE) and keep the Pro 2 for the ultra-wide FOV and obviously both being wireless etc )

This is a question to which I can't find the answer The PC is not the problem as I have a fully custom built and watercooled 13900K(F) + RTX 4090 FE (watercooled as well).

I think I would rather get a PSVR2 for the PS5 instead as there at least there are more interesting games coming ^_^... I dunno...
What is your take? (I don't want a mountain of VR headsets either ) )

[whyme466]

Given the cost of Aero, I strongly suggest getting PS VR2 first.

Any headset requires content to breathe life into the device, and 2023 appears to offer limited new PC VR content (like 2022), with few quality games like Lone Echo 2 on the horizon. On the other hand, PS VR2 is offering a growing list of quality content. In addition, I am eager to see PS VR2's OLED displays and Sony's solution to Fresnel lens god rays (see https://www.roadtovr.com/playstation-vr ... ny-patent/).

By the way, what PC chassis did you use for your new PC to get full water cooling?

[helifax]

Given the cost of Aero, I strongly suggest getting PS VR2 first.

Any headset requires content to breathe life into the device, and 2023 appears to offer limited new PC VR content (like 2022), with few quality games like Lone Echo 2 on the horizon. On the other hand, PS VR2 is offering a growing list of quality content. In addition, I am eager to see PS VR2's OLED displays and Sony's solution to Fresnel lens god rays (see https://www.roadtovr.com/playstation-vr ... ny-patent/).

Agreed

By the way, what PC chassis did you use for your new PC to get full water cooling?

This baby I have it for quite some years now and I still plan to build future builds into it ^_^ I don't use the vertical mount thingy. I like to mount the gpu directly into the mobo (since riser cables are very fiddly).
https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/ca ... mos-c700p/
(There is even a c700m version of the case with extra features and so on)

Here it is:

20221231_213226.jpg

20221231_213017.jpg

Don't ask, but I love flexible tubes. I used a lot of rigid tubes before, but I dunno there is something about "squishy" flexy tubes:))
(The 90 and extenders etc, fittings costed me more than if I would have gone full rigid tubing for 3 PCs ) However, I wanted this mechanical and "hard" look, if you get my meaning
I changed a bit since then, a bit better cable management and so on, but I like this aesthetic: flexible tubes trying to be straight but not 100% right ^_^ Defo not for OCD people... or is it?!
PS: with all that stuff inside... it weights around 38Kg I blame my 2 mechanical drives! I keep those around for the looks mostly - cause the other 5 Nvmes and 2 SSDs are too light for my taste )

Sorry for derailing the thread

[RAGEdemon]

Do the flexi tubes still go white after a while?

I refurbished my Kraken AIO with antifreeze and distilled water the other day - the cold plate was corroded, with debris blocking the fins... Not as good as your custom loop, but it's much better now

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@ all

I have a slightly different perspective than you awesome gents... I take games such as Alyx and Lone Echo 2 as added bonuses - however, the vast majority f VR games are quite abysmal, in my humble opinion.

The primary aim of my VR headset is to be a life-scale replacement for my 3D monitor/projector.

There is a discord called "flat Screen to VR" modding - https://discord.gg/cg8Duxpy -- Helifax has a channel there, but other contributors such as Luke Ross make VR mods for games such as RDR2, half-life 2, Doom 3, Subnautica, Cyberpunk 2077, GTA5, Elden Ring, etc.

Aside from this, HelixVision / VK / VorpX / geo-11 all have full resolution VR output where you can play most fixed games in life-scale. People get confused by the term "virtual screen" thinking it's some sort of fake 3D not as good as their 3D monitors...

...However, - if one just pulls the screen close to your face where it takes up the entire FOV of the headset, you are in full VR mode with keyboard/mouse/controller, assuming you are seated. You have to crank up the resolution to 3k x 3k+ though, because the massive screen becomes a low resolution blurry mess otherwise at the default 1080p; - 4090 comes in helpful. <--- THIS is what I personally buy PCVR headsets for

VK Doom Eternal is mind-blowing. Old games that can easily be played on modern hardware at high resolutions are also amazing - I had an epic experience with Dark Messiah of Might & Magic.

Of course, you need a headset with high resolution + high quality optics that fit well with your vision, to make it a viable 3D monitor replacement: Reverb G2, Varjo currently as a base-line. Hopefully better headsets around the corner, such as the PiMax Crystal etc. But the world-scale and immersion headsets bring to the table compared to a 27" monitor is a night and day difference

[thebigdogma]

Do the flexi tubes still go white after a while?

I refurbished my Kraken AIO with antifreeze and distilled water the other day - the cold plate was corroded, with debris blocking the fins... Not as good as your custom loop, but it's much better now

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@ all

I have a slightly different perspective than you awesome gents... I take games such as Alyx and Lone Echo 2 as added bonuses - however, the vast majority f VR games are quite abysmal, in my humble opinion.

The primary aim of my VR headset is to be a life-scale replacement for my 3D monitor/projector.

There is a discord called "flat Screen to VR" modding - https://discord.gg/cg8Duxpy -- Helifax has a channel there, but other contributors such as Luke Ross make VR mods for games such as RDR2, half-life 2, Doom 3, Subnautica, Cyberpunk 2077, GTA5, Elden Ring, etc.

Aside from this, HelixVision / VK / VorpX / geo-11 all have full resolution VR output where you can play most fixed games in life-scale. People get confused by the term "virtual screen" thinking it's some sort of fake 3D not as good as their 3D monitors...

...However, - if one just pulls the screen close to your face where it takes up the entire FOV of the headset, you are in full VR mode with keyboard/mouse/controller, assuming you are seated. You have to crank up the resolution to 3k x 3k+ though, because the massive screen becomes a low resolution blurry mess otherwise at the default 1080p; - 4090 comes in helpful. <--- THIS is what I personally buy PCVR headsets for

VK Doom Eternal is mind-blowing. Old games that can easily be played on modern hardware at high resolutions are also amazing - I had an epic experience with Dark Messiah of Might & Magic.

Of course, you need a headset with high resolution + high quality optics that fit well with your vision, to make it a viable 3D monitor replacement: Reverb G2, Varjo currently as a base-line. Hopefully better headsets around the corner, such as the PiMax Crystal etc. But the world-scale and immersion headsets bring to the table compared to a 27" monitor is a night and day difference

Couldn't have said it better. I have a handful of VR games that I have enjoyed, but the special sauce is playing all of my 3D games in my VD virtual theater. That being said, still waiting for the day when we have the horsepower to crank the resolution and can do a better job of mimicking the video quality of 3Dtv's in the headset. That's why I am experiementing with Nreal Air, which I am quite happy with - not as happy as being in the VR environment, but the resolution and clarity in those lenses is something to behold.

[helifax]

@RAGEdemon:
Regarding the flexy tubes, it depends what after while means ) as it depends on the material (there are different materials they can be mode from).
As for the discoloration, no ) I actually got the other way around ) Mine get coloured a bit fro the dye in the cooling liquid.
I never used water in any of the cooling loops in the past decade ) I always buy anti-conductive coolant (in case I have a leak I don't want to fry the PC). The one I currently have is from EK: CryoFuel: https://www.overclockers.co.uk/ek-water ... pd-ek.html

The previous loop which I made in Dec 2018 had a green liquid. When I made this loop, those tubes had a bit of a green tint (like 5% maybe less) but where fully usable. As for the waterblocks & pumps? No gunk inside and the fin-stack in the blocks were perfectly clean. (I am using the same pumps in this system after I cleaned them to remove the green liquid basically ) )

Back to the topic ^_^ I don't have it ready just yet (On youtube etc) but wait until you see Sniper Elite V as well ^_^

[3DNovice]

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[3DNovice]

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[whyme466]

…One inch OLED displays that have a 5120x2560 per eye resolution with 75Hz and 90Hz refresh rates, offering a 90° FOV and weighs 127 grams…

I believe the resolution is 2560x2560 per eye, with the total display resolution being 5120x2560. Thanks for sharing this information, 3DNovice!

[3DNovice]

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[whyme466]

Good summary of current overall VR status (in my opinion) - see https://www.roadtovr.com/2022-vr-year-e ... edictions/. In the PC VR mod realm, Praydog’s RE engine mods are outstanding (he is NOT using alternate-eye stereo), and he is working on universal fix for DX11/DX12 UE4 games - although he admits limits to his shaderhacking corrections for things like volumetric lighting. The best VR headset will gather dust without sustaining content…

[whyme466]

For those interested in VR gaming, this is Luke Ross’s current list of supported games:
Atomic Heart (new)
Cyberpunk 2077
Dark Souls: Remastered
Elden Ring
Final Fantasy VII Remake Intergrade
Ghostrunner
Grounded
Ghostwire: Tokyo
Hogwarts Legacy
High On Life (new)
Horizon: Zero Dawn
Marvel's Spider-Man Remastered
Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales
Stray
All games implement AER v2 (almost no ghosting, very immersive, but GPU intensive).

Praydog continues testing his unreleased universal UE4/5 fix, with almost 400 games tested (performance ranging from flawless to does not work). He has been working on this for almost 6 months, and progress looks very encouraging. Praydog’s Resident Evil VR mods are the reference standard for VR mods (flawless, some with VR motion controls).

[helifax]

Good summary of current overall VR status (in my opinion) - see https://www.roadtovr.com/2022-vr-year-e ... edictions/. In the PC VR mod realm, Praydog’s RE engine mods are outstanding (he is NOT using alternate-eye stereo), and he is working on universal fix for DX11/DX12 UE4 games - although he admits limits to his shaderhacking corrections for things like volumetric lighting. The best VR headset will gather dust without sustaining content…

Yes, I actually talked with him as well! He is a very great person and was really helpful. I think his idea is really awesome, because all games have the same engine (Unreal) and UE has native support for VR/3D. Even if the developers decide to not bake it in, it can be patched back in. Ofc, this sounds a lot easier than actually doing it, but it is doable and works great! Because UE knows how to render 2 perspectives this is working beautifully, unlike the other approaches were the application thinks it's rendering to a screen in this case it knows to render in 3D. As a result no Sequential frames and so on.
That approach is also great because instead of patching shaders individually, the matrices are patched. Those matrices end up in the shaders.So he is doing the same thing we are a a way upper level. This is possible only because UE was created with 3D in mind and has support for some of this information.
I was thinking the same way: hack the game and change the projection & view matrices to be stereo, so this gets automatically propagated to the shaders. As a result we don't need to hack every vertex shader, etc. While easy in theory very hard in practice to identify and find the matrices in the games memory... which is what UE does for us.. it tells us "where they are".

Really looking forward to his mod! I actually managed to test it - time limitation - and what I saw was phenomenal!

[Lizzard]

I've been following the flat2VR Discord from time to time: https://discord.gg/rWAgY3Bw
And very curious about Praydog's work and also impressed by the magnitude of their community. The 3DVision community is pretty pale in comparison. It is obvious that there is a much wider field to be involved in.

How is the performance with these VR mods? How extreme is the AER 2.0 on performance? Also see that it comes with the head aiming style which few would like. I should probably try his Horizon Zero Dawn and see how it goes. Would others like to share their experience? On Discord it didnt sound too appealing..

[whyme466]

You will need much more than a 2080 for almost any HMD. I found my 3080Ti was insufficient to drive the Aero, so I had to buy a new PC (with 4090), just for VR gaming. Praydog’s mods tend to be flawless, and Luke Ross’s upgraded AER v2 mods look great (some occasional minor edge blurring). Both sets of mods perform very well, with a little more lag for REAL mods.

Praydog’s mods are free to try, so why not?

[3DNovice]

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[helifax]

If you anyone is an Apple fan, their VR headset was finally announced officially.
It's a mere $3499.00

That approach is also great because instead of patching shaders individually, the matrices are patched. Those matrices end up in the shaders.So he is doing the same thing we are a a way upper level. This is possible only because UE was created with 3D in mind and has support for some of this information.
I was thinking the same way: hack the game and change the projection & view matrices to be stereo, so this gets automatically propagated to the shaders. As a result we don't need to hack every vertex shader, etc. While easy in theory very hard in practice to identify and find the matrices in the games memory... which is what UE does for us.. it tells us "where they are".

Thanks for the insight

) And why would I want to play 2D games in a 3D AR environment? They literally showed 0 on VR front ) This is not a VR headset, it's an AR one and they target Varjo XR premium 7k headset market I don't envy them or anything but Apple has for A LONG time STOPPED caring about people and consumers
We did that a long time ago a lot better: get a 2D game make it 3D and show it on 3D CinemaX screen! Apple can't be "bothered" with this, because they know how: 1) hard it is, 2) don't care If it has Half the Apple logo on it

[Lizzard]

You will need much more than a 2080 for almost any HMD. I found my 3080Ti was insufficient to drive the Aero, so I had to buy a new PC (with 4090), just for VR gaming. Praydog’s mods tend to be flawless, and Luke Ross’s upgraded AER v2 mods look great (some occasional minor edge blurring). Both sets of mods perform very well, with a little more lag for REAL mods.

Praydog’s mods are free to try, so why not?

Thanks for the headsup! Yeah this crazy demand does not really make it appealing at all. I played Horizon for a bit in Z3D and it was not that bad. But it felt like too much compromise in my opinion. It was screaming for flawless G3D.

I personally hope that game developers would see this and make the changes themselves. It is really frustrating that more game developers are not onboard yet. If one guy, or a hand full of guys can do it then it proves it is not such a big deal. It is understandable that VR is a much different style of gaming but Hellblade also gave a very good alternative way of playing games in VR. Trying to make things too realistic is one unnecessary obstacle most game developers stumble over when they try to adapt a game for VR. Simply having your head as an extra camera in the game as a third person view works very well. They should have kept this as an option in SkyrimVR as an example. I also sincerely hope that Geo-11 would start to bridge this gap in the future.

BTW, I dont think I will ever own the Aero. Or the new apple vision. Or atleast not for another 5 years. I can imagine that there is nothing at the moment that could beat this experience. Where they achieved the impossible by eliminating the screen door effect. It is going to take a while before the market is flooded by this kind of quality to bring prices down to a more economic number. Or I will need to divorce my wife
I have a feeling that it is going to take another 7 or 8 years to catch up. I remember there was a time where we were on a sport trip where the bus broke down in the middle of nowhere. At the time there was only one kid on that bus with a mobile phone. They were stinking rich. And I mean no offense. Fast forward 7 years from then and every guy had a Nokia. With a color screen! I kid you not. That was 20 years ago. Currently almost every person in the world has a mobile phone. When VR becomes available to every person it would be the next revolution. I believe humanity is catching up. Slowly but steadily.
Motion sickness is another beast that needs to be eliminated as well. But that is probably all in the mind. Or the refresh rate that is too low. We will see. I hope. Apple might put this whole experience on the right track. It might only get better from here on forward. As Thrilseeker was saying, this might have been the device that takes VR to the next level. Especially that it consumes so much less power than a massive TV while providing a similar experience.

[3DNovice]

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[vr2000]

yeah really it's crazy that there are giant corporations like meta and apple trying to make VR/3D mainstream....so you can work in a virtual office or play cards with mii-avatars?! or have your iphone user interface floating in your passthru-cam living room???

like...virtual reality is for GAMES! duh!

and if community devs like the 3dfix guys or the vorpx man can get tons of games working in vr, why isnt steam or sony or microsoft working on that too??

re: wifi stuff i thought the real problem wasnt wifi speed but the encoding/decoding of compressed video? like the hmd takes so many milliseconds to decode so many MB/s that a higher bitrate can actually be worse? there has to be a better way than turning games into DivXs and using the hmd as a video player

[3DNovice]

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[3DNovice]

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[3DNovice]

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