Very curious

Post by **trix** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:24 pm

Hello, I'm fairly new to the 3d stereo scene, though I've been drooling over the idea ever since I noticed the "3d Wall Sized Gaming" article on Toms Hardware.

Here's the thing, I eventually want to do like that article says (sort of) and get a nice projector with stereo 3d, but saving up the money I need for that (like 2 grand) will take me a few months. In the meantime, I traded my LCD to my roomate for his CRT (180Hz max at 1280x1024) and am thinking of buying the shutter glasses to work with that monitor while I save up for the projector.

Recently, however, I've been reading alot of stereo sites and forums (including the one on nvidia's forums that led me here) and have been reading about many many different ways of achieving 3d instead of just the shutter glasses. Which leads me to my question: For someone with fairly limited income, what different types of 3d are possible, how do they work, how do they look, and what would I need to do them? All these words like analgraph and polarized and the two-monitor-and-a-mirror setup and such all confuse me. I mean I'm a smart guy (I think) and it kinds makes sense, but basically I want the coolest biggest best 3d image I can get for not too much money. Can someone help me out a bit?

Also, the projector I'm considering is either the HD1000U (type that into newegg search, it's a 85hz refresh 720p HD projector) or the Optoma HD70 (similar to the other one but less Lumens so a darker image) and I'm leaning towards the HD1000U for the higher Lumens rating (since I'm currently thinking shutterglasses)

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks,
- trix

Post by **trix** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:28 pm

also, in case it helps, here are my current computer specs, although I will be selling this computer and building a better one in a few months.

AMD Athelon 64 dual core 3800+
EVGA NVidia GeForce 7800GT
1GB (2x512M) Corsair Ultra Low Latency DDR
Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer Sound card
Logitech z5300e 280watt 5.1 surround sound speakers
etc etc etc.

I have DVI-to-VGA adapters and such and understand that shutterglasses only work in VGA (which sucks)

Post by **sharky** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:18 pm

well if you want a BIG monitor you basically have 3 options:

1) projector with shutterglasses (RAGE said that it works very good)

2) 2 projectors with polarized filters (much more expensive but no flickering. some say you have ghosting, that dempensd on how much money you spend. shuttterglasses have ghosting too in bright places)

3) there is a very expensive projector designed for shutterglasses with real 120 hz.

i would reccomend oyu one of the first 2. depends on how much you want to invest. because of changing computer i wouln't do that for the next months until some working drivers for nvidia graphics are out. your actual graphics card is the last supported model for 3d. (working drivres could come out tomorrow or in 3 months... dunno) yours is still a good graphics card,

do you have more specific questions?

bye

sharky

Post by **trix** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:18 pm

Well my new computer will have a GeForce 7950GTX because I purposely wont buy a DX10 card yet so that I have inspiration to upgrade again next year (I do this once per year, this comp is a year old). That and I don't like Vista at all.

I've seen 3) before, that projector (the InFocus 3D right?) is above my price range, as is two projectors, (one 720p projector like those I mentioned are at the top of my price range, which is $1k max). But I've heard I could get two fairly big monitors and a mirror or something to have 3d on. At the moment I have like six monitors laying around (I have a room full of computer junk) so I was also thinking of getting a multi-head converter thing and running a bunch of monitors as one big screen. Could I do this and still have 3D?

Oh another question, when you say polarized filters, what are you actually talking about? Like a pane of glass in front of the screen?

Anyway thanks for the information, the more I read the more impatient I become to try out 3D.

- trix

Post by **trix** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:23 pm

Also I thought of another question but more on your observations of 3D, do the different methods of achieving 3D all look basically the same once done correctly, or does each method produce a different type of 3D effect? For example, would one type of setup make the game seem deep inside the screen while another method might make it pop out at you? Or is it more like they all have the same basic effect but some just look better or clearer then others?

Thanks again for your help!

Post by **sharky** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:14 am

the 3d effect is the same. what changes are basically 3 things:

ammount of flicker
ammount of ghosting
size

if you want to do the monitor thing with two monitors and a mirrow then i personally think that it is better to buy a monitor (crt) maybe 21" or bigger wich supports at least 140 hz and use that with shutterglasses. at 140 hz you don't see flicker anymore and the big screen gets a good effect. crt monitors arn't expensive anymore so i would reccomend you that. but if you want things really big and cool than you should think about point one or two. RAGEdaemon told me that nto all projectors that have 70HZ written on work at 70 hz. most of them work only at 60. 60 is not that good for shutterglasses because they flicker a lot.

bye

sharky

Post by **trix** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:42 am

The reason not all projectors that list 70hz run at the listed refresh rate is simply because they often list the highest incoming refresh rate, while the outgoing refresh rate (the one we can actually use) is often much lower. Such is the case with the Optoma HD 70, which lists its max refresh as 120Hz, though the highest OUTPUT refresh it can be set to is more like 70 or 80. I did however read that the HD1000U which lists 85Hz max refresh does have the ability to output that refresh. Though the place I read that didn't seem like a very reliable source, as the person who made that specific post didn't actually own the projector himself.

Unfortunately I have been unable to find a way to differentiate input and output refresh rates in projector specs, it seems the companies like to list the highest number they can, which is usually output. A friend of mine actually called a projector company awhile back to try and find out the actual output refresh on a certain other projector but nobody he could reach on the phone had that information.

Almost reminds me of the misleading 2ms refresh quoted on alot of LCD's that don't really have a 2ms refresh, as different manufacturers use different methods to test the ms response time of monitors. Making direct comparisons of response times misleading and useless.

Anyway thanks for the reply! You've been alot of help Sharky, and I can't wait to be playing FEAR and WoW in 3D! And especially Freelancer, if it works.

- trix

Post by **sharky** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:14 am

as far as i know dlp projector are much better for stereo. because lcd ones have polarizing filters inside for the lcd pannel they have inside.

so lcd ones will not work with polarized filters if you decide to make dual projector layout.

also shutterglasses have a polarized filter on the two screens. those are positioned at 45?. if the projector has the same polarization angle you are not going to see anything.. just black. well you will see, because the wall depolarized the light, but oyu will loose a big ammount of light.

Post by **LukePC1** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:30 pm

You have a lot of monitors laying around? And as I see, you heared of the thing with the mirrors.

If you have a normal big mirror and 2 Montitors of equal apperance (and a little Space) you could try out S-3D with very few effort.
In the end of this article are some nice pictures how it should look.
http://www.crystalcanyons.net/pages/Tec ... ewing.shtm

Simply choose 'planer mirrors' and Clone-mode in Nvidia's stereo Driver. Each monitor will get a different immage of which one is mirrored.

This setup provides the Maximum Resolution both monitors can offer and few flickering and ghosting (depending on the used Mirror).
Disadvantage is you can't move your head around. This will result in a hurting neck after a while

Althoug might be a simple way to try out S-3D (without buying Shutterglasses - which are a better solution for me)

Luke

Post by **trix** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:58 pm

LukePC1 wrote:You have a lot of monitors laying around? And as I see, you heared of the thing with the mirrors.

If you have a normal big mirror and 2 Montitors of equal apperance (and a little Space) you could try out S-3D with very few effort.
In the end of this article are some nice pictures how it should look.
http://www.crystalcanyons.net/pages/Tec ... ewing.shtm

Simply choose 'planer mirrors' and Clone-mode in Nvidia's stereo Driver. Each monitor will get a different immage of which one is mirrored.

This setup provides the Maximum Resolution both monitors can offer and few flickering and ghosting (depending on the used Mirror).
Disadvantage is you can't move your head around. This will result in a hurting neck after a while

Althoug might be a simple way to try out S-3D (without buying Shutterglasses - which are a better solution for me)

Luke

The problem is that all the monitors I have are different, all of them (except the LCD I'm currently using) are old, and all of them (once again except this LCD) have low resolutions. Not only that, I don't happen to have any detachable mirrors I can find, all the ones in my house are bathroom mirrors, and one dresser mirror that is waaaay too big.

I have this one 19" non-widescreen LCD (Hyundai L90D+) two 17" CRT's, one Gateway peice of crap (and the light is way dark on that one), and one Viewsonic that works OK, two 15" CRT's (one is 1024x768@32-bit, other is 640x480@256colors), one REALLY NICE 19" (18" viewable) 1280x1024@32bit@180Hz max refresh (though I have a roomate so I can either use the LCD or this CRT but not both), one 12" 8 color peice of crap, and one little 7" LCD that is supposed to be for a car.

So with those monitors I don't think I can really pull off a 3D effect, and even if I could, the resolution penalty and such I don't think I can bear. I would hate 1024x768 let alone anything lower.

But thank you for the idea, if I could pull it off I definitely would just to try it out if nothing else. But I think so far shutterglasses seem to be the best option that i know of. Of course, shutter glasses and the mirror thing are the only ones I can think of that I actually know anything about.

Oh and @ sharky: thank you for the information about polarizing filters, but I already knew that LCD projectors wouldn't really work (the two I mention are both DLP) I just didn't fully understand why. Now I do!

Also, I think two projectors are pretty much out of the question for me, as that is an expensive option I could only afford if I got two cheap ones, and I'd rather have one really nice one then two cheap ones, as the second projector would serve no purpose outside of 3D gaming, and I do so much more then that on my computer.

Thanks again guys!
- trix
Thanks again!
- trix

Post by **Neil** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:19 pm

Hi Trix,

I'm surprised no one has brought this up with you, but there is also the iZ3D option. It's a 22" monitor that features a full 1680 X 1080 resolution, and has software driver benefits that are not yet available through other solutions. Read through our press release section to learn more.

The iZ3D monitor, as well as other solutions, are going to be released soon enough. I recommend holding off until you have a fair analysis of the best options available, and spend the next few weeks educating yourself.

Check out this link:

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=21256

This was a review I did BEFORE MTBS on their 17" prototype model. I think that it is fair to say that technology tends to improve with time, yes? I will say nothing more.

Hey! Get involved in our advocacy incentive, and you might get it for free!

Neil

Post by **trix** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:02 pm

Hi Neil!

Actually I've read that review already (before I even registered here) and it looks quite interesting. If I was to get one of those, it would more likely be the 22" version, as size does matter to me (I habitually sit a bit farther from the screen then most, no desk). The problem however, is spending a thousand dollars on a 22" monitor that is great in 3D, but not so great in normal 2D mode, when for that same thousand dollars I can get a 720p HD DLP Projector and some shutter glasses and have a much bigger screen. Now sure, the 3D itself would be better on the iZ3D option, maybe even a LOT better, but the projector can also play Bluray and HD-DVD movies at 720p and watch TV and other stuff.

But then again I'm still not even sure what the difference would look like or about anything at all really. I still have yet to even SEE the 3D effect in a game so I don't really know anything. I wish there was an easy way I could simply preview each option and choose between them, I would feel alot better about whatever decision I do with if I've at least SEEN the alternatives. Which is what kind of sucks about the general public remaining unaware of 3D, no friends to talk into getting it first so I can try it out.

Also Neil, how does one get anything for free with the advocacy incentive? I've heard that term here before but looking around all I can find is the member discount on the front page. What would I need to do?

Anyway you guys are great and thanks for the help!

- trix

Post by **Neil** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:37 pm

Hi Trix,

The 17" is no longer available, so 22" is your only option.

The 2D/3D quality difference is no more. That sandy look I spoke of before is no longer there. There is an iZ3D thread talking about it here:

http://www.neurokoptics.com/cgi-local/y ... 1181245563

One guy posted about not seeing a granular image on the 17", but he was probably seeing a 3D image. From what I have seen, the granular is gone in both 2D and 3D modes.

If you select "Member Benefits", there is a horizontal tab labeled ""Advocacy & Incentive Program". Click on that to get the details.

Neil

Post by **Freke1** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:24 am

trix wrote: I still have yet to even SEE the 3D effect in a game so I don't really know anything.

Hey
You can see game pics and video in 3D here:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=28496
(no 3D gear needed).

Post by **trix** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:38 am

Whoa thanks Freke! Those looks pretty cool (though now my eyes feel really weird, and it took forever to be able to cross my eyes the right way and then focus on the middle image so it becomes clear) Wow i'm still kinda having trouble focusing my eyes back to normal now lol.

Anyway that effect is nice, but the 3D in those shots and especially the WoW video don't really look all that mind blowing. Then again, once I uncrossed my eyes and looked at the video in 2D, it looked extra ugly and dull. Still though, a couple of those shots barely looked 3D and I had to actually look around a little for the pop-in effect, and I didn't notice any pop-out effect whatsoever. Is that really exactly what it looks like in 3D? Or is that just a small taste of what it's really like?

lol if I were to download the stereoscopic drivers right now and enable 3D in a game (without having ANY hardware) then try to play the game crosseyed would I be able to force it 3D? I know this would be far from perfect (and kinda suck) but I mean for demonstration purposes so I can see what it looks like in real time?

Thanks alot! That thread was way cool.

- trix

Post by **Neil** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:50 am

Hi Trix,

The cross-eyed effect (which I could never really get to work) is a very small taste.

Have you ever been to an Imax 3D movie theatre? Ever worn 3D glasses where things pop out of the screen? That's what you should expect.

All the hardware solutions offer very similar 3D benefits. The big differences tend to focus on resolution, ghosting, flicker or lack of flicker, color quality, and most important, software compatibility.

Do you own a cheap CRT monitor? The most cost effective option would be to get a used CRT monitor ($50?), a pair of LCD shutterglasses off ebay ($50?), and have fun! Remember, while you get what you pay for, it will tide you over and educate you on the benefits while you are shopping for the solution you are after.

Neil

Post by **LukePC1** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:18 am

If you have masterd Crosseye its a good step in the right direction.
The disadvantage of crosseyed view is usually the small image - half the width of your screen. In contrast to shots each working game can be adjusted like you want it to - ingame!
This alows great deepness or popout effects - just like you want it.

A possible, but uncomfortable possibility to get Crosseye working with the S-3D driver is to choose Dual-Output (similar to the Mirrored setup).

In general each of two monitors could shows one of the images you'd use in crosseyed mode. If you'd sit far away from your 2 (similar) monitors and with a little training you might be able to cross the two monitor. If your monitors don't have the same size it could help to put one further away, so that it'll apear smaller. This requires a lot of space - a big table and about two meters infront of it.

BIG disadvantage of this solution is, that the picture gets smaller again and that the devices are difficult to reach.
The advantage is, that this could work without waiting for Glasses and costs nothing - except time

This worked for me with two 17" CRT's, but it was very uncomfortable. Just ignore the different buttons and frame of the pictures...

Post by **Freke1** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:58 am

Thx

Some pics with more 3D effect in them:
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8551/3ddino3zh1.jpg (popout!)
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/2461/boe0950eq4.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1820/trl1599aw0.jpg
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/7551/lfs1150qz2.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8538/35478312mg2.jpg

cheap 3D glasses:
40$:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6826504001
18euro: http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... uage_tools

Post by **trix** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:19 pm

Wow the 3D effect on those new pictures is AMAZING! The dinosaur (first one) does pop out and looks great! the second one with the two planes looks awesome as well! The main plane looks like it's really in the air somewhat flying around, and the HUD looks like I'm really in a cockpit of some sort because it's way closer then everything else, the other plane looks good too but the fire looks like it's way far away in the sky (part of the backdrop) instead of actually on the second plane.

A couple things though, these new pics are much much harder to focus on with the crosseyed way then the ones on the NVIDIA forums. I can cross my eyes to put the two images together in the middle, and even see the 3D effect, quite easily, but then getting my eyes to actually focus on the middle image so that its clear and not all blurry is much more difficult and takes longer then on the less 3d screenshots on the nvidia forums.

Also, once back in 2d mode, my eyes feel strained and tired and weird and have trouble focusing on stuff and seeing clearly, I'm wondering if doing this crosseyed thing so much can have harmful effects on my vision. I have unbelievably good vision (better then 20/20) and can see things really clearly from very far away and would hate to damage my vision by screwing with it.

Edit: Also I noticed that playing music with loud bass helps my eyes focus better when crosseyed, if I turn up the volume so that my subwoofer is shaking the table my monitor is on a little, then I notice every time the bass beats my eyes focus JUST a bit more, then more, then more until it's finally clear. Maybe its just my mind (and eyes) playing tricks on me.

Post by **sharky** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:48 pm

Freke1 wrote:Thx
Some pics with more 3D effect in them:
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8551/3ddino3zh1.jpg (popout!)
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/2461/boe0950eq4.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1820/trl1599aw0.jpg
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/7551/lfs1150qz2.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8538/35478312mg2.jpg

Hi! you often post very cool images, much cooler than the ones usually found on the web. what do you think about making a zip file, and upload it into the members exchange section? it would also be great if you could post a direct download link to tze zip file in our slips and pics section. think about it..

good job.
bye

sharky

Post by **Freke1** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:19 pm

@ Trix: I find the crosseyed viewing quite stressful too. I don't think it's harmful but don't overdo it. If You swap the images You can use "parallel viewing" (fokus on infinity/eyes look parallel).

@ Sharky: Thx, ok.