Xbit labs reviews iZ3D 22" monitor

[BlackShark]

Here :
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monito ... /iz3d.html

[yuriythebest]

I remember reading this very review on the russian version of this site. This review was already discussed on really.ru. I looked through it and all the photos and even text was identical just translated- not sure if the english or russian version is the original though.

Bottom line is that while the reviewer clearly is a master of reviewing monoscopic LCD's he is clearly a newcomer to stereo3d.

[Neil]

I responded to the review.

I think they made a lot of errors in how they rated the technology.

Regards,
Neil

[yuriythebest]

I responded to the review.

I think they made a lot of errors in how they rated the technology.

Regards,
Neil

wow that is one huge comment

[BlackShark]

Wow, quite a big comment indeed.

[Tril]

I thought the review was mostly well made but I agree that he should have tried Crysis. It's a recent game and it works very well.

The pictures however surprised me a bit. There's a significant red hue in one eye and blue hue in the other. I thought it was possible for the people at iZ3D to get near equal colors in both eyes by benchmarking the monitor with a colorimeter and a linear polarizing filter to get data to adjust their conversion algorithm in their driver to compensate for the nonlinearity of the LC twist.

[nubie]

Don't forget that they think Crossfire is not supported!!

CrossfireX and any solution that allows 2 outputs is compatible!

[Okta]

A scathing review, the ghosting showed in those photos was dreadfull and seems to be the same result every new owner gets untill they tilt the screen.

[Neil]

The methodology of that review is riddled with problems. It's a shame.

Regards,
Neil

[martinlandau]

The pictures however surprised me a bit. There's a significant red hue in one eye and blue hue in the other. I thought it was possible for the people at iZ3D to get near equal colors in both eyes by benchmarking the monitor with a colorimeter and a linear polarizing filter to get data to adjust their conversion algorithm in their driver to compensate for the nonlinearity of the LC twist.

That sounds very interesting. My brain is like homer simpson's - very lazy, it doesn't want to have to interpolate a lot of different color information between the 2 eyeballs, so if they can do all the hard work in their algorithm my brain won't have to work as hard and hopefully I won't get headaches. I assume this new alogorithm and the new glasses could make for many hours long gaming session with no headaches, my personal panacea. Things are looking good for our future. Neil I don't think the review was all that bad, he does say with the new glasses and the better effects that will have on ghosting that IZ3D will basically blow away any other solution on the market, this will be very very good for all of us and IZ3D. Hopefully they will have this new algorithm ready to go soon.

[BlackQ]

I've talked with this guy - he is indeed deep in 2D LCD, but two things I assume may affect his review:

1. he changed gamma on front screen - this may explain colors dis balance

2. he used separation only - he said that he could not make weapons in fps "no doubled" - means weapon is not at zero parallax plane

We are going to release special wizard for newbies to help them to find the best settings for convergence / separation "in game" on the fly - hope it will help reviewers too

[Killigath]

We are going to release special wizard for newbies to help them to find the best settings for convergence / separation "in game" on the fly - hope it will help reviewers too

That is a very very good to hear and is needed not only for reviews, but to make the transition from 2D to 3D less painful for those of us that don't like to fiddle with settings all the time.

An optimization wizard so that people can fine tune settings to their liking pre-game load would be great too. That will cut down alot of frustration i think.

[BlackQ]

we are going to make kind of overlay user can call at any time in game to set the best 3D. Unfortunately the procedure of reaching the best setting is not universal - at minimum it is different for RPG, FPS, Racing and flightsims etc etc - at the moment we are thinking about class by class type of setting with per user optimization

[BlackShark]

As far as I am concerned, i've always used the exact same configuration methodology :

(zero pop-out configuration)
1) without glasses : increase separation slightly to make the convergence point visible
2) without glasses : Establish convergence point as far as possible without causing any object to ever pop-out
3) without glasses : set separation so that the farthest object has a separation equivalent to the distance between your eyes (measure separation on the surface of your screen)
4) test with glasses
5) fine tune by slightly reducing convergence and separation to get a small safety margin (anti-pop-out and anti-eye-divergence).
6) step back one metre away from the monitor and enjoy

I've sometimes had issues with some games with cameras far away from the main character where the convergence setting becomes very close to 0. (Tomb Raider series and Assassins creed for example).
In these conditions, separation and convergence start to strongly influence each other and require to constantly repeat the configuration process.

This is the configuration i always recommand to anyone who asks me about how to configure S-3D.
I always recommand to drop pop-out to avoid out-of-screen visual anomalies.

I have only tried FPS and action/adventure games in S-3D.
I've never tried to play a management or RTS game in S-3D, but i assume these games may be nightmares because of the requirement of having HUD/game interactions (ie : the mouse pointer)
i also imagine managing the zoom in supremer commander (switching the view from standard RTS heights to satellite heights).
I don't play Wow either but i can just imagine how hard it must be to play it.

[BlackQ]

interesting - I played WoW and some other RTS in 3D - easy for me

thank you a lot about procedure you described. There is good question about wizard - we assume we need to run it with glasses... but I'm not sure - may be it is wrong assumption

[nubie]

I have only tried FPS and action/adventure games in S-3D.
I've never tried to play a management or RTS game in S-3D, but i assume these games may be nightmares because of the requirement of having HUD/game interactions (ie : the mouse pointer)
i also imagine managing the zoom in supremer commander (switching the view from standard RTS heights to satellite heights).
I don't play Wow either but i can just imagine how hard it must be to play it.

I agree with your setup method, although I never measured the distance separation perhaps I should (might be tough on a Planar without two rulers ).

RTS games should make the HUD float at the "3D depth" of your cursor or selected object (whichever applies), but they are not designed for 3D properly.

More important than the HUD is the cursor, if it isn't able to move in depth we have a real problem, and of course the solution is 3D controls, maybe even two sets, one to move you and one to move the selection cursor.

I think that any review needs to have some help if the reviewers have no clue what they are doing (that or keep the article under wraps and use the info to help make the product user-friendly).

Perhaps we need a professional video with a step-by-step on what is really happening, that way reviewers don't keep setting up wrong. I am not sure how to get them to watch it, maybe a giant full-screen "sticker" with a pictorial version and a DVD with it for them to watch in a pouch.

nVidia has gone in an interesting direction because they have put a wheel on the back of the IR shutter pod, who knows what that will adjust, but there are 3 adjustments, so presumably it will be next to useless if I can't modify it with a keystroke to control a different adjustment. I know that more hardware isn't what people want to pay for or learn to use, but until the game and screen can auto-set we are going to need them.

[BlackQ]

yes ... pushing people to watch tutorial video is not a simple thing to do - but we'll try this way to and will try to make it attractive

[Neil]

We have a tutorial already, though it's non-proprietary:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/cgi-bin/newslette ... ews_id=44/

I like the idea of having a profile mechanism built into the driver - an overlay perhaps.

Regards,
Neil

[BlackQ]

I remember this, but most of the people want to run their favorite game immediately

[yuriythebest]

We have a tutorial already, though it's non-proprietary:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/cgi-bin/newslette ... ews_id=44/

I like the idea of having a profile mechanism built into the driver - an overlay perhaps.

Regards,
Neil

yup, would be nice. However since the driver can't actually monitor the correctness of what you are doing should be an overlay that performs the function of a wizard. For instance you have to press a key to initialize the overlay/wizard - could just be text btw- it could first ask you what style of game you are playing, once you select that it will guide you through the apropriate steps you need to take, at the same time it also ask what effect you are aiming for but that could be counterintuitive and dilute the entire purpose of the wizard.

[LukePC1]

Jeah or it could ask wheter the user is comfortable with the scenery and ask him to hit +, -, ...
Then maybe make one button for 'OK' so the next setting can be worked on.

Or what about a small video, that you can appear in the corner of the game while running? Hit a HELP button and get a guide

[BlackShark]

yes ... pushing people to watch tutorial video is not a simple thing to do - but we'll try this way to and will try to make it attractive

Maybe i can give it a try too.
I've been planning to make a video demonstration of 3D gaming (in french, for the french website jeuxvideo.tv).
I've got some hardware at home to make a homemade/Blog-like youtube video.
After all, homemade stuff often goes viral (remember the Johnny Lee Wii tech demos ?)


I've got a proper camera and i have to buy a professionnal quality hand mike soon since i've given back the one i already had to my father. (a Shure beta 58, sounds awesome, waaaay better than any cheap consumer mike i've tried, it's studio quality and at approx 1meter it sounds very natural).
Now the only thing i can't do is to show an iZ3D monitor since I don't own one yet, so i can't make an iZ3D advertizing, it would have to be a more generic approach, but i think i could make some kind of short presentation of 3D gaming, show some footage from my games in anaglyph. I could introduce some 3D concepts like separation vs monitor size, convergence vs pop-in/pop-out.
And I still have my Elsa 3D revelator shutters (just to show on camera when talking about the history of S-3D)

[martinlandau]

We have a tutorial already, though it's non-proprietary:

http://www.mtbs3d.com/cgi-bin/newslette ... ews_id=44/

I like the idea of having a profile mechanism built into the driver - an overlay perhaps.

Regards,
Neil

It is important that the separation does not go beyond the actual space between your eyes or you will experience something called “divergence”, or encourage your eyes to point uncomfortably apart from each other.

How do I know if the seperation has went past the space between my eyes besides getting a headache in a short time? I don't want to get headaches or eyeaches because my eyeballs are bulging outwards and pointing in the wrong direction - is this something that can be incorporated into the driver so that "divergance" isn't mistakenly induced? Is "divergance" different for different people?

[Neil]

The guide was designed to be used without wearing glasses. Looking at the screen without putting your glasses on should tell your right away if your settings are correct or if you have gone too far apart with the separation.

A driver feature is a separate matter.

Regards,
Neil

[nubie]

It is important that the separation does not go beyond the actual space between your eyes or you will experience something called “divergence”, or encourage your eyes to point uncomfortably apart from each other.

How do I know if the seperation has went past the space between my eyes besides getting a headache in a short time? I don't want to get headaches or eyeaches because my eyeballs are bulging outwards and pointing in the wrong direction - is this something that can be incorporated into the driver so that "divergance" isn't mistakenly induced? Is "divergance" different for different people?

I don't know if divergence is different for different people, but you could err on the side of caution and use an "average" eye-to-eye distance (I am sure that info is out there somewhere.) EDIT: assuming that the display is correctly recognized, and for an iZ3D it probably would be

Although some people can diverge their eyes quite far with no problems (my brother freaks me out this way.)


I am afraid we are really going to be stuck with adjustments, hopefully it can be simplified. I know that binoculars and binocular microscopes need an extra adjustment for the eyes (pupil distance, and focus), so it may be an un-avoidable thing, but if you can hook the people they will learn to set it up, or get somebody else to set it up for them (usually me )

[BlackQ]

Hi, BlackShark!

That would be very helpful - keep me informed if we can help you by some resources

[martinlandau]

I don't know if divergence is different for different people, but you could err on the side of caution and use an "average" eye-to-eye distance (I am sure that info is out there somewhere.) EDIT: assuming that the display is correctly recognized, and for an iZ3D it probably would be

Although some people can diverge their eyes quite far with no problems (my brother freaks me out this way.)

Yah, so let's say I am playing oblivion on an IZ3D monitor. Should I set seperation to 20 so that MY eyeballs don't diverge, or should I set seperation in the 500 range as Neil says he does? Why not 10 or 5000? You say use the average eye to eye distance? Ok lets say 2 inches from the center of one eyeball to the other, so what does that mean? Does that mean I need to get out a ruler and seperate the mountaintop (way off in the distance from my character) in oblivion until they are 2 inches apart on the screen? What if I am sitting 1 feet away from the screen one day and 3 feet away from the screen another day (with my reclinining chair laid back) Or should I measure the monolith (a few feet off in the distance from my character) 2 inches apart on screen. Assumptions that I have the knowledge or experience to understand divergance and how to properly control for it may lead to many headaches that makes me throw my IZ3D out the window in anger and frustration.

Neil says take off your glasses and look at oblivion and you will know right away if the seperation is too far or not so that divergance is not too much, how can I know this, I am still very confused. Maybe I use 30 for the seperation setting but that ever so slightly is diverging my eyeballs and will give me headaches, but had I used 28 there would be no divergance - certainly there must be a better way than taking off your glasses and looking at the screen and just KNOWING magically that you have the right setting for your particular set of eyeballs? Am I making this seem more difficult to understand than it really is?

[Neil]

Hi MartinLandau,

When reading the guide, look at the diagrams as well. The diagrams point out where the left and right images are relative to your eyes.

Regards,
Neil