VR glove idea

[Xemakon]

So I saw this VR glove http://www.architecturemixedreality.com ... Gloves.htm. I am not sure who manufactures it, but it gave me an idea. If it were possible to somehow make the flexible vein over the fingers rigid, then one could simulate touch by stopping the movement of the digits at the point when they touch the virtual object.

In my head I picture 5 wires fed from small electric reel on top of the hand, through the finger joints. Normally the wires retract into the reel when the hand is in an open position. When you pick up an object in VR, say a tennis ball, the wires can protract as you close the hand, but the reel stops the wires after a measure, simulating collision.

This would only be a partial solution though. It could simulate holding an object with your hands, but it probably wouldn't work for touching the environment. Anyway just a thought.

[cybereality]

Yes. Great idea, but it has been done. For example, the CyberGrasp:

[WiredEarp]

Yep, its an old concept, like most in VR. For a long time, peoples ideas have been ahead of the materials and technologies to reproduce them. Many of these old designs are ripe for a revamp with modern, vastly cheaper componentry.

The glove in the video is a P5 glove. I'm actually doing some work with these currently. The sensing is crap but if you combine it with a Hydra its a pretty decent glove for the price. There are some issues using it outside the sensing range, but they can be overcome... The glove itself is really cheap and a good investment. Its around US$20 currently I believe on ebay...

[yoshithedog]

I wonder...
Suppose we have 1:1 real to virtual hand control through Leap or Kinect or whatever.
Wouldn't your brain be tricked into feeling things you touch virtually?

[WiredEarp]

Suppose we have 1:1 real to virtual hand control through Leap or Kinect or whatever.
Wouldn't your brain be tricked into feeling things you touch virtually?

I don't really think you'd get that consistently without hypnosis, drugs, or similar similar to suspend the critical sense. Even if your mind starts to provide an internal sense, it wouldn't be anything near a real sense of touch.

However, if you simply had a basic sense of touch on the glove, such as vibration, then after prolonged use of the glove you would probably come to feel the vibration as being a much more real sense of touch than you started off with. However, its a bit more of a stretch to go to feeling sensations without any real input.

I think its possible as a side effect, but I don't personally think its something that is going to remove the need for true haptic gloves, if that was what you were meaning...?

[yoshithedog]

Suppose we have 1:1 real to virtual hand control through Leap or Kinect or whatever.
Wouldn't your brain be tricked into feeling things you touch virtually?

I don't really think you'd get that consistently without hypnosis, drugs, or similar similar to suspend the critical sense. Even if your mind starts to provide an internal sense, it wouldn't be anything near a real sense of touch.

However, if you simply had a basic sense of touch on the glove, such as vibration, then after prolonged use of the glove you would probably come to feel the vibration as being a much more real sense of touch than you started off with. However, its a bit more of a stretch to go to feeling sensations without any real input.

I think its possible as a side effect, but I don't personally think its something that is going to remove the need for true haptic gloves, if that was what you were meaning...?

Yes, i believe haptic input may not be really needed when VR is good enough.
Even with this early Rift devkit on head, your mind takes VR world for real one - that IS similiar to hypnosis/drugs.
Besides, that's what's happening every night when we're dreaming, right? I doubt our minds simulate every sense separately, yet we don't notice the lack of touch sense in dreams (even lucid ones).

[mrklaw]

Would you get a decent sense of touch by restricting the fingers from behind like that? No pressure on the fingertips themselves would feel strange wouldn't it?

[ishist]

From the picture above it appears the cables are attached to a sling around the finger. so the pressure would come from the pad of the finger and possibly the side. Not perfect but not bad.

[cybereality]

@yoshithedog: Dreams are different. They actually simulate the full senses. At the very least sight, sound, and touch. I imagine taste and smell also work, but I don't recall specifically experiencing them.

[EVIL]

Sony patented a funny VR input device a while ago that looks to be a nice way for VR input


It can also provide haptic feedback

[WiredEarp]

Hmm, thats an interesting device. Bit similar to an idea I'm working on ;(
I think 'inside out' is a better consumer design than the 'outside in' type of haptic glove as in CR's pic.

[PatimPatam]

@EVIL & WiredEarp

Oh yeah I totally agree, this design from Sony looks much more compelling to me than the typical outside-in haptic glove (ala P5 or CyberGrasp), both from a usability and from a complexity/price standpoint. Combined with rumble and proper wireless magnetic tracking (like an improved version of the razer hydra) i believe this could be the perfect VR input device.

In fact this is NOT actually patented by Sony, those images are simply from the patent application that was filed:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20110269544

I had a quick look to check the status and found out that it was registered as ABANDONED on the 01-02-2013!
http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair
(Select "Publication Number" and enter 20110269544)

So i'm guessing anyone is free to build/sell something similar if they want to. WiredEarp keep us updated on your progress!


Also if Oculus is looking to implement their own hand tracking device to go with the Rift i think this could be a great starting point.

[Aabel]

I wonder...
Suppose we have 1:1 real to virtual hand control through Leap or Kinect or whatever.
Wouldn't your brain be tricked into feeling things you touch virtually?

Yes, that is the idea behind the magic pot perceptual haptics demonstration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uEVNtgOcm4

Once we have solid hand tracking I am sure this can exploited in VR.

[cybereality]

@Aabel: Interesting video. I had actually seen that one before but totally forgot about it. I do wonder how far you could take it and still be believable.

[rhinosix]

Hmm, thats an interesting device. Bit similar to an idea I'm working on ;(
I think 'inside out' is a better consumer design than the 'outside in' type of haptic glove as in CR's pic.

It seems like a great design. I hope you continue working on it.

These articles may be of interest to people interested in data gloves:

http://www.gizmag.com/graphene-artificial-muscle/25956/
http://www.gizmag.com/piezoelectric-skin-taxels/27301/
http://www.gizmag.com/conductive-nanoco ... les/18861/

[Pheregrim]

That concept Sony inside VR glove thingy sure looks interesting, both flex and vibration inside the glove, could get paired up with the magnetic motion tracking from the Hydra for quite the sweet vr experience.

I've been thinking a lot about haptic vr gloves lately, and the idea of using electrorheological fluids inside a glove to stiffen the glove as you touch or grab object in game seemed like a good idea to me, so I starter googling it, and turns out it's been talked about for years, yeeaaars, but I couldn't find a single example of anyone actually trying it.

Thoughts on using electrorheological fluids for tactile feedback?
I'm guessing it would be impossible to use with a magnetic motion tracking system like the Hydra uses, as the electrorheological fluids needs a magnetic field to change it's viscosity

[PatimPatam]

I wonder...
Suppose we have 1:1 real to virtual hand control through Leap or Kinect or whatever.
Wouldn't your brain be tricked into feeling things you touch virtually?

Yes, that is the idea behind the magic pot perceptual haptics demonstration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uEVNtgOcm4

Once we have solid hand tracking I am sure this can exploited in VR.

Very interesting video Aabel, i remember watching it a while back as well.. But notice that the woman is in fact actually touching something. I think feeding both visual and haptic clues at the same time (even though they don't really match in real life) is what is really tricking the brain in here.

I also thought that you could take this glove concept even further by adding a very simple kind of active feedback on your fingertips, using for instance some plastic mini ballons containing a liquid that would "inflate" when you are touching something.


Take for example this picture from The Gallery, where your virtual avatar's right hand is touching a wall, with his arm slightly flexed:



To start with imagine your real life arm/hand position actually matched this in-game position. In this state the haptic glove could be returning only a slight pressure on your fingertips.

Now imagine that you strech your arm in real life, trying to put your virtual hand inside the wall. The haptic glove could respond by not letting you close your hand (increasing its overall stiffness) and also increasing the pressure on your fingertips; at the same time the image could show your arm/hand not moving and still in the same in-game position against the wall; I would have to try it myself but i'm pretty sure in this situation you would actually "believe" that your hand really can't go past that concrete wall and instinctively just retract your arm until you gain control again (because you're outside the "forbidden" boundaries).

Anyway, definetely a lot of room for improvement and experimentation in this field. I think it would be really cool if we could get something similar early in the game (when the DK2 or consumer Rift comes out for instance), but i'm guessing it's not going to happen for a few years..

[WiredEarp]

@ PatimPatam

I think feeding both visual and haptic clues at the same time (even though they don't really match in real life) is what is really tricking the brain in here.
I also thought that you could take this glove concept even further by adding a very simple kind of active feedback on your fingertips, using for instance some plastic mini ballons containing a liquid that would "inflate" when you are touching something.

Very workable ideas, even simple feedback such as vibration combined with on screen visuals etc can give a very useful sense of 'touch'. If you wanted to be really sly and advance your idea, you could have a elements that would cool or heat the liquid, allowing you to simulate hot and cold enviroments and objects etc. Also, making a nice finger warmer on cold winter days.