My results trying to use interlaced SD cameras for 3D

[Basicam]

Hi, I'm new to mtbs3d, a most interesting site, as I have been in several other similar forums looking for inexpensive 3D camera setup info. A couple of small things I noticed here: you could do with a 3d camera setup sub forum, and search boxes for forums to speed info searches, but all is good.

This is an adjusted copy of a recent post of mine in Creative Cow's s-3d forum, for your interest, and maybe someone here has info to add, to help me & other hacks; note, I'm not a gamer, techie or geek, just a hurdle stumbling camera man, with old gear and little budget.

After getting little advice from any forums at the time, (see Creative Cow post July 2012), for making cheap home made 3D video with my existing setup, I have tried to use interlaced pal 25 fps to make 3D Videos. Using two Standard Definition camcorders, recording on Digital 8 tape, with input from two SD
helmet cameras mounted 65mm apart in a steel tube bracket, on a bike helmet, convergence fixed at ~10m, fixed focus. Audio input from 2 helmet mounted electret mics, pointing up & out to reduce road noise, injection serarately thru 2 pre-champ & 2 champ electronic kit amplifiers, into one sound designated camera. Camcorders on own batteries, audio on 12V supply. Most gear stowed in backpack.

Flashing LED bike tail light held up & used for visual sync before each take, & occasionally within long recording sessions. All connectors secured well with velcro so nothing unplugs accidentally while being
active; jump about like crazy to test. All works well in the field to make cheap sacrificial old SD technology 'action' POV video X 2 eyes.

Back in the 'office', using BlackMagic DL HD 3D Extreme, with CS 5.5, and Cineform studio premium:
I capture/download videos separately via iLink to CS5.5; use CineForm to sync videos & edit both together on CS 5.5 timeline. Use freeware to put files into a .mkv container, to play on TV.

My main problem: The conversion from .avi to .mov to enable work in CineForm seems to disturb the frame rates so that the synchronisation wanders cyclically, (no matter where the sync points are placed), and the resulting 3D effect annoys, and strains the eyes a bit; even while watching on Cineform. Cutting a frame here and there to re-sync doesn't work for more than a few seconds. I tried de-interlacing then convert to .mov; convert to .mov first, then de-interlace; and re capturing the videos via analogue in/out & trying to de-interlace + convert it to .mov. All efforts produced poor quality and varying sync, of only 1 frame or so out, but enough to be sub-standard, and annoying.

My 'cheap' answer to this is to buy 2 new HD progressive frame helmet/POV cameras that save files as
.mov to begin with. But I have not found suitable cameras yet.

If anyone can offer other budget oriented suggestions and improvements to cheap dodgy home 3D video setups and processing, please do so, I'm all ears & eyes. Looking for small head mountable HD cameras, into separate recorders with 60fps, at least shower / dust proof, if not ~1m waterproof.
I've looked at Vio, Rad20 HD, GoPro, & numerous substandard similar units, but all have disappointed.

Does anyone know of other small (not Go Pro) POV useable cameras with sync/gen lock available, (and with audio in). I was ready to buy a pair of VIO POV HD's but knowing about sync problems, and after reading a relevant post here, I'm still looking for a camera, or sync, genlock answer, as are others.

Eg.: Can someone invent an induction coil based genlock system to stick to the outside of the waterproof cabinets of hermetically sealed recording units. - A circuit and coil slipped inside cabinet, wired up and sealed; similar coils velcro'd to outside, to sync 2 or more cameras via an oscillator circuit, powered by 12v in a small sealed waterproof box. Just a thought.
Basicam.

[nateight]

note, I'm not a gamer, techie or geek, just a hurdle stumbling camera man, with old gear and little budget.

This right here is why I love this place - it's for everyone with an interest with this stuff, passion is the only entry requirement (by the way, that makes you a camera geek ). I've barely arrived myself, but welcome to the forum. I think you'll like it here.

Unfortunately I'm exactly the wrong person to assist you as much of what you said there went entirely over my head, but I second the call for a stereoscopic camera subforum. It's a tight little ball of damned interesting technical challenges, and it's going to be extremely relevant to those of us who are gamers and techies and currently slavering over the Oculus Rift. Hopefully you have at least a passing familiarity with it (and if you don't a few hundred of us will gladly talk your ear off about it - it was born here), but one ray of hope worth mentioning is the tiny little speculative chance that the consumer model of the Rift will include two decent cameras. The single greatest feature the Rift is currently lacking is positional head tracking - in other words, when you look around inside it your head will turn and tilt, but only as if fixed on a gimbal, you can't "look around a corner", and this matters deeply because head-mounted displays without this feature can make you feel sick - but one of the approaches to correct this is "visual odometry". Assuming the algorithms can be improved significantly, it's not inconceivable that in a year or so when the commercial Rift launches it would no longer be cost prohibitive to slap a couple of CCDs on the outside and get mediated reality/stereoscopic imaging for "free" while solving this other looming problem. Other solutions are more mature and somewhat cheaper, so I wouldn't get your hopes up too much, but it's something to keep an eye on.

As for solving your actual problem in the near term, something like the Dveo HD-RH1 would seem ideal, but $16000 for a pair doesn't exactly fit my definition of "little budget". I was very recently considering picking up two close-to-free 720p "spy" cameras just to see if I could get anything at all useful, but I'm up to my eyebrows in other projects at the moment. It's possible the feature set you require demands you shop in the high-end professional market, but I wouldn't be surprised if some Chinese unit did exactly what you need for under $1000. You may want to offload audio recording into a separate device to make your search easier; a musician friend who's done a little outdoor dialog recording loves his Zoom portable recorder, but I can't tell you the model offhand. I don't think anyone would mind if you came back to give this thread a poke every few weeks until you found something, particularly if you included some updates or further details of your experiments.

One avenue of approach to consider: If you know it's your software jamming you up, have you taken a look at alternative workflows? Moving to Linux might be too big of a leap to take, but my (limited) understanding is that Cinelerra enjoys a very good reputation even when pitted against the heavy hitters of the professional editing market (author Adam Williams' hacking blog may be of additional interest). I can tell you that .mov files are generally hated by non-camera type geeks for a variety of reasons, but you probably have good reasons for choosing that format.

Please forgive us while we whip ourselves into a hysterical frenzy over the impending Oculus Rift dev kit launch (the apex is likely to come in a week or two, dip significantly when Oculus opens their own forums, and begin to taper off from that point, but there will still be tons of activity) - you're tackling a problem here that most of us here would agree needs tackling but it may be esoteric to much of the community, so please do add in the occasional chirp until you get that subforum. With any luck someone who actually has something useful to say will wander in soon and sort you out.

[Basicam]

Thanks nateight, over 100 posts, you doin OK.

Goose me, found the search box at bottom afterward. Used to at top, - always the last place you look!

I might even run a new post asking about stereo camera setups specifically, since my first heading was not specific to my main question, re - what's out there (domestic cam), with sync or genlock.
As to a 3D camera setup specific forum, or sub forum suggestion, its all images, & real life camera feed can be 'animationised' to use in many ways, eg backgrounding, textures, natural sounds, etc. Nearly everyone has a camera of some description, or several, and can impart experience on using them, or avoiding them, so we can all learn. A little bit of knowledge can make our bits and pieces into an inexpensive cool gadget; and some good stuff comes from people who don't really know what they are doing. Other video camera & 3D sites i've visited seem elitist, dealing only with high tech, high end professional gear, & not interested in stuff available from the local shops. We're not all movie moguls.

On the Oculus Rift, I have checked it out, it sounds real good, and within reach for many people; however I reckon a HOLODECK would be more fantastiker, (if you could make/afford one) as less claustrophobic, full field of vision used/needed, and can be with friends in the experience. Not to take anything away from Oculus Rift, just my preference to share, move about, and be free of head gear & cables; (says me with helmet cams & all sorts of junk hanging off)! Maybe that's why.

The 720p "spy" cameras idea sounds feasible, carrying a small laptop & a couple of external HDD's, or something else. Most spy cameras have weird optics & lenses, when replayed on TV's, not cinematic quality, so need to be fussy when selecting them.

I looked at stereo web cameras, but they look awful (as far as wearing them), and look very limited. If I had $ to spare I might break one up and re-mount it to my specs: 70 - 75 mm apart, 10 - 5 m convergence, with a low profile, & not looking the way they do, just to try them out for a super cheap solution ~ $40.00.

On audio, I know what you mean limiting my options for audio input cameras. My thoughts was to minimise things needing synchronisation, and gear to carry - go wrong - need power. But I may go external audio eventually, cause so many inexpensive, good audio options nowadays, just need clapper to sync to video, (or genlock). Four mics is the way to go though, stereo front, and rear, for surround sound; let the watcher's home theatre deal with the central front woofer.

My edit software is top notch, so no problems there, and I only need to use .mov files to work with Cineform, to mux the files together, unfortunately a needed operation; if Cineform worked directly with .avi files I would probably be having less loss of sync and video image quality.

If Oculus Rift had a marketable stereo camera setup designed for their viewer screens, it may also be useful in the field for outside extreme filming, for youtube, streaming, etc. not just for the rift, depending on the optics's configuration - flat or curved screen, & ability to add lenses & filters.

I liked the idea of a proxy concert goer, imagine going backstage, & after party, but must remember to turn it off when visit the WC, or yuck!
On that image, Basicam out.