Stereo3D with a Z800, Vista and non-nVidia cards? Really?

Post by **fokx** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:11 am

In fact, my z800 Helmet is unknown in Vista 64 bits. Even after installing IZ3d driver or z800 driver (version for xp only, but which works on vista 32 bits), I still have "EMAX" with a yellow icon in my Device Manager!
I had contact with emagin, and they talked me about a driver for nvidia (the 91.xx, a very old one...) . Here are the mail:

If your firmware is indeed 6.35 you will need the 6.38 upgrade to run the support applications on the 3DVisor site, but there will be no difference in product compatibility with Vista and NVIDIA Drivers. We have not yet tested the compatibility of the Iz3D driver with either firmware, but would not expect there to be any difference. Again, the change was made only to support the eMagin SDK.

On 2/18/09 1:37 PM, "Free" <vailldam@free.fr> wrote:
I read this there http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2129" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; <http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2129> :

Firmware requirements for stereovision
Stereovision, as described in this section, requires the 3DVisor headset to be turned to 3D mode programmatically. This functionality is not always available, as shown in the table below.

Product Firmware version Status
Z800 6.38 and above Available.
Z800 6.36 and 6.37 Not released.
Z800 6.35 and below Not available.
X800 All Not available

Are you sure that the 6.35 firmware (mine firmware) is really enough for playing with vista and Iz3D driver ?

Again, thanks a lot !

De : Bruce Ridley [mailto:bridley@emagincorp.com]
Envoyé : mercredi 18 février 2009 22:33
À : Free
Cc : Carol Miller
Objet : Re: About Z800 Firmware upgrade

We are recommending that you do not purchase the upgrade since the firmware in your Z800 3DVisor is probably the same as, or newer than the upgrade and not make any difference in the performance or compatibility of your Z800.

R. Bruce Ridley
Vice President
Business Dev. & Special Projects
eMagin Corporation
10500 NE 8th Street, 14th Floor
Bellevue, WA 98004
425-749-3641

On 2/18/09 1:17 PM, "Free" <vailldam@free.fr> wrote:
Thanks again,

I try to buy the kit to upgrade the firmware but i have 2 problems :
First, the redeem coupon « EMA-300042 » does not work : The coupon code you entered is invalid.
Second :
Unable to authorize payment: The transaction resulted in an AVS mismatch. The address provided does not match billing address of cardholder.

Can you help me ??

Thanks a lot.

Damien

De : Bruce Ridley [mailto:bridley@emagincorp.com]
Envoyé : mercredi 18 février 2009 21:21
À : Free; 'Techsupport'
Objet : Re: About Z800 Firmware upgrade

Dear Damien,

The software upgrade you refer to was first mad available on March 31, 2006. If your Z800 was made before that date the update will allow it to work with programs created with the eMagin SDK, otherwise compatibility is the same. There is no stererovision compatibility for Windows Vista and no headtracking compatibility for Vista 64. He programs on our website are all designed for Windows XP.

The last frame sequential 3D stereovision driver from NVIDIA was 91.31. Attached is the list of the graphic cards compatible with this driver.

Best Regards,

R. Bruce Ridley
Vice President
Business Dev. & Special Projects
eMagin Corporation
10500 NE 8th Street, 14th Floor
Bellevue, WA 98004
425-749-3641

On 2/18/09 11:54 AM, "Free" <vailldam@free.fr> wrote:
Thanks for your answer.
I have some others questions :

With Vista 32 bits and Nvidia Geforce gtx 260, which softwares I have to use ? Labtool and Iz3d driver ? What is the procedure ?
Which firmware must I have ? I’ve the 6.35, is that enough ?

And with Vista 64 bits, does any driver exist ?

Thanks again for your time

Damien

What do you think about that??

Post by **Welder** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:03 am

Well, if the Z800 requires its own display driver besides 3D, and they don't have one for 64bit, then that is hard to fix I think.

As far as the other stuff, most of my posting was because of this:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 958#p19958" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, if you have the -03 and yet the wrong firmware, than I suppose that may be conflicting with their site that I quoted before. But from the table, it may seem that the upgrade me be required. Hard to say =/

That quote I made is from this page: https://e-store.emagin.com/miva/merchan ... gory_Code=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Which says -03 has new firmware, so you may want to ask him about that.

Post by **stereomania** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:57 pm

Yes, you will need the 6.38 upgrade for it to work and yes, it does work great!

Post by **stereomania** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:35 pm

Oh, also. Make sure you do not have the emagin drivers installed. If so uninstall them and only install Labtool. Once you do this run Labtool and choose the Miscellaneous tab and click Force 3D Mode 2D to 3D, then run the iZ3d driver, and choose S3D, Marked and check out the test screen. All should be good. Then any game will be 3D!

Post by **genetic** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:24 pm

Wow, eMagin wants $70 to ship the firmware to my resident country. Was the firmware really so heavy? Also, was it scary to install? I read somewhere once that Z800 control box was a cumbersome mess on the inside.

Hell, I guess I will get a new faceplate thing too. The original one is cracked and has that old cell phone look. I never liked the silver anyway. Oh how I wish there were other HMD options out there with 40 FOV or higher.

Post by **Okta** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:10 am

Have you contacted them about that shipping charge? Its rediculous and if they dont smarten up i would be very pissed off.

Post by **genetic** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:18 am

Well, I love eMagin to death for making the Z800 but they just don’t strike me as a very reasonable / flexible/ sane group.

Its ok, if this new firmware really is the magic key I have been waiting for (which I believe it to be) then I don’t mind paying too much.

Wow, I haven’t posted here very much since someone confirmed that the Z800 will now work with modern GPUs. Ironically, Now that I CAN upgrade my computer, it wont be convenient for me to make a new build until after summer for various reasons. But just knowing that I can upgrade has really helped me to enjoy the games that I do have. Besides, I need to finish PREY before I move onto the IZ3D drivers anyway.

I will look on the bright side and say that this whole mess saved me from spending $800 on an 8800 ultra GPU as I had intended before I found out that it wouldn’t work. GPUs sure were expensive back then.

Post by **Okta** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:24 am

At that resolution wouldnt the best course be to just use a 7900gtx and xp untill the z800 is worn out?

Post by **genetic** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:17 am

Well, if my Z800 dies tomorrow I will buy a new one on the day after tomorrow.

Sad that there still isn’t anything better out there.

As for why to upgrade? I must admit that your comment took me by surprise. I understand that most of the gains in high end GPUs can be found at higher resolutions but most modern games can only be played at medium or lower settings with my 7800 GTX. Can you honestly not see an advantage in upgrading to a 285 GTX or whatever to play Fallout3 for example with the Z800 even at 800x600?

Add to that the fact that older games like Bioshock don’t work with legacy Nvidia drivers and I have about 4 games left to play in my collection that can perform well or better with my current computer.

Those 4 games should last me until summer so that works out great with my wait until summer to upgrade plan.

Post by **Okta** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:24 am

I recently bought a 7950gx2 for $90AU second hand and have had almost zero driver related issues. I plan to use this rig with my active projector at 1024x768 and expect few problems.
The XP driver is so far ahead of iz3d in compatibility its not funny. From my perspective its the way to go.

Post by **Swannik** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:13 am

genetic wrote:Wow, eMagin wants $70 to ship the firmware to my resident country. Was the firmware really so heavy? Also, was it scary to install? I read somewhere once that Z800 control box was a cumbersome mess on the inside.

Hell, I guess I will get a new faceplate thing too. The original one is cracked and has that old cell phone look. I never liked the silver anyway. Oh how I wish there were other HMD options out there with 40 FOV or higher.

I've been waiting for this moment for a long time and almost gave up hope...
And once in a while I check eMAGIN/nVIDIA/Google for any progress in 3DVISOR world..., with no luck....., until last friday!!
I couldn't believe my eyes!

Just ordered one from VRLogic in Germany (only company I could find in Europe that had it in stock).
I payed € 24,95 for the firmware + € 16,- to get it to Holland.
Much better than the $ 55,- + customs to get it from the US.

Installing the firmware is very easy, 4 screws in the bottom of the connection box and the chip was easy to access.
Tried it out right away on an older computer at work, and is does work!! The force 3D option became available under Labtool/miscellaneous and I was able to test it a bit with CoD2. It was very flickery, but since it was an older computer my guess is I need to try it at home on my c2d E8500/9800gtx/Vista box.

I haven’t had the time yet to test it at home, since it was Queensday in Holland (and some idiot ran over and killed 5 people with his car by driving through the crowd and almost hitting the royal family!!! http://www.zie.nl/videos/Ernstig-ongelu ... ezou2fa09f)
But I will test it this weekend I hope. And I’ll let you know how it works out.

Post by **Swannik** » Tue May 05, 2009 3:07 am

Finally got the time to test the new firmware (6.40) in my Z800 VISOR and it works much better then on the old computer at work!!
From the start it had a good and solid 3D picture.
Only problem is the switching of left and right screens when the frame rate drops beneath 60fps.
Crysis didn’t work for me (nVidia graphics card) as mentioned at the compatible gaming list. I’ve tested it with Call of Duty 4 and I must say, It looks great. I’ve forgotten how cool 3D can be. Will try out some more games this week I hope.

Here’s my setup:
- Intel Core 2 Duo E8400
- MSI P43 Neo F mainboard
- MSI N9800GTX Plus 2D512-OC
- 4Gb DDRII 800MHz (2x 2Gb)
- Windows Vista Ultimate 32bit

Installation:
o Got my monitor connected on 1st DVI connector
o Connected 3D VISOR on 2nd DVI connector with a converter
o Installed eMAGIN Labtool and checked device manager to see if the 3DVISOR was installed correctly. (I did not install any other software from eMAGIN!!)
o Installed 1Z3D Full install (to make shutter and S3DShutter available)
o Opened Labtool and forced the 3DVISOR in 3D mode (miscellaneous tab)
o Also Reset onboard EEPROM (After this Vista detected it as a second screen)
o Opened iZ3D and under DirectX enabled stereo and set the output to S3DShutter, Marked
o Minimized both Labtool and iZ3D and went to the Display properties to enable my second screen (my VISOR) at the property tab and made it the default screen just to make sure the games would start on my VISOR screen.
o And that’s it!!

I hope this is helpful for some of you guys.
I would really like to thank iZ3D for the great software and the forum members of mtbs3d.com for the support. I shouldn't forget eMAGIN for the're great hardware an firmware upgrade, without them, I’d still be gaming in “primitive mode”

.

Post by **Okta** » Tue May 05, 2009 10:42 am

But.... you still need to keep the frame rate very high which you cant do because pc games stutter now and then and your stereo flips. Better off with xp and a 7900 i think.

Post by **Neil** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:32 am

Does Z800's updated firmware recognize iZ3D's marked shutter glasses option? This might overcome that synchronization limitation - not sure.

Regards,
Neil

Post by **Swannik** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:52 am

I agree It’s annoying. It’s definitely something for iZ3D to work at… (I realy hope there's a solution)

But try playing Crysis or other modern games with these "older" graphics cards

I used a NX7950x2 card for quite a while, but Crysis for example was unplayable, and I didn’t even use the glasses. With a N9800GTX it works great and I can use the worst operating system known to mankind (Vista)

and use DX10.
I've seen a shortcut somewere for flipping the shutters back.

So for now I'm a happy person.

For Neil:
I used the S3Dshutter marked option, should I try the iZ3D option instead?
I'll try it this evening. Thanks for the suggestion!

Post by **Neil** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:55 am

Looks like you are using the correct version already.

Regards,
Neil

Post by **Okta** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:20 am

Just did some experiementation. Playing crysis at 800x600 with xp driver on 7950gx2. Quality settings on mediam except shadow/shaders? that had to be on high to avoid messed up textures.

Although a bit stuttery is is playable and could use some further tweaking.

Post by **Swannik** » Sat May 09, 2009 6:31 am

Tested H.A.W.X. yesterday...
Not realy a big fan of these type of games, but wanted to test the headtracking function.

It was awsome! Headtracking works great! You need to keep pressing the c button to activate it, but I was lots of fun.
I could look arround from inside the cockpit and was a real ad-on for the game play.

Post by **crim3** » Tue May 12, 2009 6:20 am

Swannik wrote:Tested H.A.W.X. yesterday...
Not realy a big fan of these type of games, but wanted to test the headtracking function.

It was awsome! Headtracking works great! You need to keep pressing the c button to activate it, but I was lots of fun.
I could look arround from inside the cockpit and was a real ad-on for the game play.

If that game supports trackir, you could try trackir emulation with Glovepie and forget about keeping a key pressed. It works with scripts. I can help you writing one and posting it here if you decide to try.
Yes, headtracking is a delight.

Post by **genetic** » Thu May 14, 2009 2:56 am

stereomania wrote:Yes, you will need the 6.38 upgrade for it to work and yes, it does work great!

Swannik wrote:Finally got the time to test the new firmware (6.40) in my Z800 VISOR and it works much better then on the old computer at work!!
From the start it had a good and solid 3D picture.
Only problem is the switching of left and right screens when the frame rate drops beneath 60fps.

Um, Something is wrong here.

I thought The new firmware was to fix our 60fps problem. If not there is no need for it.

Also, any word on 64bit OS. Did anyone get Vist 64 to work with it?

Post by **soundstorm** » Fri May 29, 2009 6:37 am

Hello everybody

Maybe i'll be a Z800 owner soon, so im already following threads like these.

As it seems, the "drop below 60fps" Problem is still existent... sadly...
But i saw something on the z800 website:

Can I use two inputs into the Z800 3DVisor to create stereoscopic 3D images? eMagin Corporation's value added reseller (Virtual Realities) now offers a dual input version of the Z800.

I guess with these, there would be no more problems with sync

But i couldnt find any info regarding this on virtualrealities.com. Also it seems that its really a different model and not just an update as i understand it...

Does somebody know more?

One last thought: To be forced to 60fps isn't only bad thing, it also has the advantage of smooth gameplay.

Only problem is the expensive hardware to achieve it (or lower graohics).

Post by **phil** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:57 am

soundstorm wrote:One last thought: To be forced to 60fps isn't only bad thing, it also has the advantage of smooth gameplay. Only problem is the expensive hardware to achieve it (or lower graohics).

Plus, remember it's only 800x600 and it's only one eye per frame

I have a Z800 mode in my demo game, and it forced me to be constantly mindful of the game's performance in order to keep it in 3D at default settings. So I agree, no bad thing indeed!

Actually, I did cheat a little bit: in order to get up to 60fps in the first place I had to buy a new PC to go with my Z800

Post by **soundstorm** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:11 am

Hi Phil!

You're right, I do forget this always: 800x600 will give Performance Boost over our BIG Monitors Resolution right now... 8)

I just recieved an answer to a mail from virtualrealites.com and the Dual Z800: It really exists:
http://www.vrealities.com/z800dualpro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But for $2195.00...

But as it takes Dual Input, i guess no more problems with De-Sync.

it's only one eye per frame

What do you mean by that?

Yea a new cpu and gpu would be necessary also for me (dualcore@3.2, 8800gts@640MB)

Post by **phil** » Fri May 29, 2009 12:07 pm

soundstorm wrote:
it's only one eye per frame
What do you mean by that?

Sorry, I wasn't clear - I mean that the game only has to render one view of the scene each 60th of a second. So performance should be very similar to rendering monoscopically. When you send each view to the Z800, it remains on the eye's screen until a new image for that eye is sent to replace it.

Post by **soundstorm** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:56 am

performance should be very similar to rendering monoscopically

That sounds cool... 8)

I just lost the auction at Ebay for a Z800. Its sold for 550GBP...

Will have to buy new, or wait for VR1440... or future HMDs..

Post by **Somian** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:13 am

soundstorm wrote:Hi Phil!

You're right, I do forget this always: 800x600 will give Performance Boost over our BIG Monitors Resolution right now... 8)

I just recieved an answer to a mail from virtualrealites.com and the Dual Z800: It really exists:
http://www.vrealities.com/z800dualpro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But for $2195.00... But as it takes Dual Input, i guess no more problems with De-Sync.

it's only one eye per frame
What do you mean by that?

Yea a new cpu and gpu would be necessary also for me (dualcore@3.2, 8800gts@640MB)

do you know, if there is an upgradekit or something that makes the standard z800 dual compatible?

i have a z800 with the old firmware, and i'd like to use it with my GTX280-PC. before i was using a 7950GX2 with it; but its far too slow these days.

is there a way to send the proper left-right signal to the z800 to prevent the side-flip?

Post by **soundstorm** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:28 am

Im sorry but i dont know. You could ask virtualrealities.com, they sell the z800 Dual Option as I mentioned. Maybe you can upgrade the standard model, although i doubt it.

Or for a BIG price...

Post by **Okta** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:44 am

The z800 might work with a 8800gtx ultra because you can trick it into ddc io glasses mode. It works for shutters so it should work.

Post by **DavidGhast** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:48 pm

so the z800 wont work on 64bit?

Post by **yomer** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:42 pm

OK, just to get things straight. After the update to 6.38/6.40 firmware of the z800, using the iz3d marked shutter mode. If you can't maintain a 60+ FPS, there will be synchronization problems, right? Unless you have the dual input z800. I was this close to buy a z800 because I thought the sync problem was finally fixed...

Post by **krysium** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:12 pm

I just bought a z800, someone used once for a demonstration. I have a 256 mb ati eax 1550 vid card, dual core amd athlon x2 3800, 4 gb ram.

I have been trying to set this thing up for 2 months to start my dissertation in august (the hmd's are being used for treating ptsd and other anxiety disorders).
I have the labtool, and the iz3d driver. The driver is set to s3d shutter marked.
WHen I run the test I get a flicker on both my main screen, and my goggles(main is hooked up to the z800). I have the latest firmware (6.38e).

I cannot get the test image to look 3d, and I have never seen the z800 indicator light go solid green as it should. I have tried to run it on half life 2:lost coast, and episode 1. No luck. MY FPS appear to be 25-30.

Suggestions. I am considering boosting my whol system (my power supply has a 12v of 16 amp) increasing the cpu to the 5400, and the gpu to an ati 512 mb or greater. But I would hate to do this if someone sees somethign I am missing.

John

Post by **crim3** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:12 am

You have to manualy activate the 3D mode of the z800. Download the "labtool" from http://www.3dvisor.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. There is an option to activate 3D mode, or stereo mode, I don't remember the literal.

Don't select "shutter marked", the marks are not used.

Post by **yomer** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:08 pm

I thought it was said that the marks were indeed used in the newest firmware. Then, what does the new z800 firmware do besides enabling other video cards to work?

Post by **crim3** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:57 am

yomer wrote:I thought it was said that the marks were indeed used in the newest firmware. Then, what does the new z800 firmware do besides enabling other video cards to work?

I don't know, I've never had problems related to firmware version. If that's true for the newest firmware that would be awesome.

Post by **krysium** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:30 am

Crim 3
I have 6.3 e, the latest version. About activating the z800 in labtool, you mean just toggling 2d to 3d mode correct? That is the only way I can see to activate it.
I get a vibration on the iz3d test (circling equipment thingy) and the ogere htrowing the spear. But my indicator does not turn green, nor does it seem to be 3d.

I have adjusted the convergence and seperation, but still no 3d.

any ideas? Hoping to start running studies next month. Measuring heart rate and skin conductance levels of people while they play a mod of half life (a fire evacuation simulation used by a british research). Eventually will apply to Post Traumatic Stress disorder and more. Not to mention computer addiction:)

Post by **yomer** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:57 am

Actually, the newest firmware is 6.38. Isn't it?

Post by **krysium** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:22 am

I had thought the same as u, but when i contacted z800 Scott Schloemer told me that 6.3e was up to date. I know there was a 6.35, and I read about the 6.38 and the differences between the two. Emagin assured me that 6.3e was the latest and would run with ati or nvidia cards.

Screwiest setup I ever saw. Nvidia supplied the drivers up until 8000 series, then stopped b/c of their intro of 3d equipment, so now emagin doesnt supply its own drivers it states that its resellers have gotten the z800 to work on the iz3d drivers.

I just wanna play half life 2:)

Athlon x2 3800
3 gb corsair ram
ati 1550 512 mb vid card (or nvidia 8400gs)

Post by **krysium** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:23 am

Here is the email from April 2009

For your firmware, the most resent firm ware we have is 6.3E. If I
remember correctly from a previous e-mail you said this is the version
you have.

Iz3d drivers allow for more resent nvidia cards and ATI cards. More
information on them can be found on our website in the FAQ's found here
http://www.3dvisor.com/faqs.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope this helps you.

Scott Schloemer

Post by **yomer** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:56 am

I understand, but why the hell does emagin sell just the upgrade to 6.38? Are the firmwares the same? Are they so slightly different that emagin doesn't even care to tell the consumer the differences or recommend one over the other.

Post by **crim3** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:31 pm

krysium wrote:Crim 3
I have 6.3 e, the latest version. About activating the z800 in labtool, you mean just toggling 2d to 3d mode correct? That is the only way I can see to activate it.
I get a vibration on the iz3d test (circling equipment thingy) and the ogere htrowing the spear. But my indicator does not turn green, nor does it seem to be 3d.

I have adjusted the convergence and seperation, but still no 3d.

any ideas? Hoping to start running studies next month. Measuring heart rate and skin conductance levels of people while they play a mod of half life (a fire evacuation simulation used by a british research). Eventually will apply to Post Traumatic Stress disorder and more. Not to mention computer addiction:)

Yes, I meant just that. In my side, when I activate 3D manually with labtool the led turns into solid green and stays like that for the rest of the session.
I didn't try those iz3d tests. I directly run FSX and worked well, except for the known sync problem.
I don't remember if I forced vertical sync in nvidia's control panel, but it's most likely advisable.

That project you describe sounds amazing. Are you going to gather objective data about the 'coolness' of stereo-3D?