Hi there

I just registered here after I did some research to get myself up to date what happened to S3D. I used shutter glasses with my Voodoo 2 SLI setup from wicked3d - and besides headache (after ~2 hrs) I was very happy with it. But I bought a TFT as next monitor, so I could not use S3D since then - even shutter glasses were all around with the next generation of 3D cards (GeForce e.g.). I had to catch up 9 years of what happened in between.

Basically, what I know after 2 weeks "research" is, that I might need to wait another 9 years to get back that feeling of S3D.

When I came across an article about Gravis iPod googles (in coop with Zeiss), I really was excited. I thought "maybe something changed with HMD technology aswell". I always thought HMDs are a really cool thing. But I never thought there was any consumer orientated HMD available. To find out about the Trimersion, eMagin and TDVision products was great. Until I realized:
- Trimersion is really bad resolution
- eMagin got strange pricing (dramatic increase) and stopped consumer development (I would have instantly bought one for the former price of ~600$)
- TDVision, just sounds good on paper. But there is no product available. And the announced price seems still way off of "consumer" ranges. I guess they will follow the steps of eMagin - but gladly buy a 720p Visor for 600-700$ if they ever keep their plan of reducing prices.

I also went deep into every other S3D stuff. But I really don't see anything that won't come with major flaws.
Ontop the driver issues. Think I don't need to go too deep into detail here, but with the latest news I doubt there will be any S3D solution of practical use besides the supported iZ3D or something that comes with it's own drivers. DIY solutions actually are dead... (thought about a 2nd HPw2408 with half mirror polarization etc).

Maybe I will try out the eDimensional shutter glasses for now. Since they have a TFT version and generic drivers (tho interlaced and outdated).

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All in all, I don't get why S3D still did not have a break through. Seems that there is just no consumer solution available that covers all the needs of the consumers. Maybe the only viable solution available right now, is the iZ3D monitor. If I would not have bought a new monitor 3 months ago, I'd go for an iZ3D. But for a truely immersive feeling, I can't wait for the first consumer HMD (consumer = fitting the needs of a consumer: low price, hi res, easy use, no side effects and good driver support).

Hi to you, too

I don't think you'll be lucky with ED glasses on a TFT
You could combine them with an old CRT (from ebay?), if you have enough space. That should provide a much better effect (less flickering and ghosting).

I googled Trimerson and it looks like a commercial 2D HMD. They claim to have
Unique head-tracking technology for full 360 degree vision. I haven't found anything about stereoscopic 3D!!! It's build for consoles which don't do S-3D...

You could comapre it to the vr920 (from pricing) except the vr920 DOES S-3D! It might even have a bigger fov. You might want to look for it, since it also supports headtracking and interpolation of higher resolution.

They are also trying to provide some sort of driver with their new firmware, i think.

Maybe someone who owns a vr920 can tell you more.

You should also try out the iZ3d driver with anaglyph glasses - might be better than ED drivers.

Unfortunatly I haven't seen any hmd, so I can't tell how great or bad they do compared to Shutterglasses.


I don't hope so. If the new generation of drivers is out and the movies are producing s-3D movies it might begin to rush.

You could go with DLP TV's, too^^

If You want cheap S-3D You can get a CRT+shutterglasses for like 25$+5$ on ebay.
http://computer.listings.ebay.de/Monito ... ngItemList
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 26po%3DOp1

You could get some good red/blue glasses and install the iZ3D driver on Your current system:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1076775/rfactor_in_3d/
just in case You want S-3D while You wait/deciede what to get.

if you want a vr920 you should wait for the new firmwire. The vr920 is pretty sweet especially if you have a geforce 7900 or older.

It's good see see a new face in the community! Welcome to MTBS!

I appreciate where you are coming from in that to get involved in S-3D with an above average gaming grade result, it involves a bigger investment than the $50 to $100 we have been trained to accept the past several years. However, the question you need to ask yourself is how long will an S-3D investment last you, and how much of a thrill will you get compared to other similarly priced computer components?

From a marketing point of view, if you buy a game once every three months and don't know SLI from BMW, then this isn't the product class for you...TODAY.

However, if you are like the millions of other casual gamers out there who value features like visual beauty and game immersion, and have taken the time to familiarize yourself with SLI, Cross-Fire, and every GPU on the face of the earth on a day by day basis, then you are smack dab in the middle of the market S-3D is currently appropriate for. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you need SLI or Cross-fire to use S-3D - it's just a marketing mix that is compatible.

I spent $400 on an 8800GTS 512MB this December. In a year, I will probably need another upgrade. A lot of people bought two of them for SLI. Newer cards can be bought in threes! Is this technology giving me a thrill? Does it dramatically improve my gaming experience? No. It is just maintaining the speed of my gaming, nothing more.

S-3D is about adding a whole new thrill, a whole new category of gaming technology. It's odd that we are calling it new, but that's what it is to most people. In two years, which investment will I remember and appreciate more, the pair of slowing GPUs I bought, or the S-3D solution sitting on my desk that I use every day?

Regards,
Neil

Such a great point, Neil.

Maybe we all should chip in and start our own company and call it "Meant to be Experienced" (sorry in advance for the rip off, Neil). Except our new mouse trap is a complete end-to-end S3D solution for the gamer.

Just recently I was digging through the transcripts from last years Stereoscopic Displays & Applications Conference and found many of the conversations about 3D in the home very intriguing. Essentially, a lot of "Chicken or the Egg" talk going on and not knowing what should come first, the hardware or the media, when the answer is BOTH! They seemed to conclude that gaming would likely be the first widespread use of S3D in the home, vs TV, handhelds, etc. What has made this industry so stagnant over the last nine years isn't the lack of innovation as there is innovation in S3D everywhere these days. All of the vendors are simply approaching the solution from the wrong angle which is from the outside - in. Meaning, they are only making part of the solution that depends on a myriad of other components before a workable solution is achieved. Nvidia's drivers, CRT's, Projectors, HMD's, LCD and Polarized glasses, a PC and all the parts it requires. Bottom line is you just can't walk into Best Buy and buy everything you need, go home and plug it in and enjoy S3D. Close, but not quite and it ain't cheap!

If you want to get S3D in as many homes as possible, and video games is most likely the vehicle to get it done, then you need start from the inside and go outward. Develop a core system that's sole purpose is to generate stereoscopic games and nothing else. You don't need a screaming machine to drive 800x600 or 1280x720 resolution. Marry it to an inexpensive controller and add an entry level hmd like the vr920. Sell the complete system for under $700 with a driver subscription for 1 year at $50 per year. Gen 2 would be a faster base system with better hmd, etc. But it has to START somewhere, and this part of the industry just hasn't started yet. I really had my hopes up when seeing and hearing about the PS3 doing stereo, but lets face it, Sony doesn't see the market yet. Something like this would sell like crazy and turn the console market upside down, but everyone is so busy trying to build the parts without any type of a roadmap on how to offer a complete solution. Again, IZ3D is the closest to having this approach. Nvidia, maybe with Zalman. Samsung and DDD? Maybe. But the entire solution needs to fit under the Christmas tree and your wife should be able to buy it in one box, under one brand name, wrap it up and put it under the tree for the, umm, the kids!
PiXeL

Thx for the nice welcome
And thx for your thoughts.

I agree with you PiXel. But "Develop a core system that's sole purpose is to generate stereoscopic games and nothing else." can only be done by a single corporation. Microsoft. From a programmers point of view, drivers are a layer way down and you won't use them in your work. So they should not be the technique to get S3D imho. A S3D graphics engine won't be successful aswell, just because it is utopic to think, all games will be developed on one engine just to feature S3D. Native and generic S3D support in Direct X would be nice ^^

And I agree with you Neil
I always thought the most important device at a computer is the monitor. Just because it is the most direct interface to suck you into the world of a game. That is why I bought a 18" TFT when my friends just upgraded to 17" or 19" CRT, or when they entered the TFT age with 17" - I bought me a 20". Not to show off, just because I felt it was just the right moment. Now I got myself a 24" and I am happy with it. Playing in Full HD is really cool. S3D ofc would give just another impressive interface to a game. But I am not willing to accept trade offs. I am not going away from full hd to VGA. But I am not buying myself another monitor (iZ3D) aswell.

@Freke: for now I really might do that. Get a Sony GDM W900 24" CRT that should do 160Hz @1280x720. Sounds acceptable to me.

Maybe you wouldn't even notice, if it did 'just' 120hz (or 100?). So look what refresh rates they have in higher resolution, too.

I can't understand people, why to buy a TFT instead of a CRT anyway. CRT ar just so much faster and cheaper. On top of that, the user can choose a lot of resolutions without having interpolation...
Only disadvantage is size and maybe power consumption.

I went to TFT because of the sharpness tbh.

The one I might buy got 121kHz. So @720 it is ~160Hz (121000/720 right ?) theory ofc. No headache here I guess.

I used to play lots of games then everything became boring and I almost never played anything anymore. Also had a 8800GT card until I tried rfactor, gtr2 and race07 in stereo on an old 6800 card and 17" crt I have. I couldn't believe my eyes. Long story short, I ended up with selling the 8800 card and now use a 7900gtx with a hp p1230 monitor that does 150HZ at 1024*768 and shutter glasses with the trackir head tracking device. Can't even play without stereo anymore. I wish they would make some 8800 drivers, my card does 200+ frames in rfactor without stereo and 30 with it turned on .

I agree. It would take a major corporation to pull it off, but look at the SDK's that were created to support all of the consoles out there! That is really all this would be is another console with an SDK, so you are right that it wouldn't need a driver if that approach were taken. However, a small company could pull off a deal with a mini-PC manufacturer and use off the shelf components with existing games. This would get something to market much faster and utilize all this great technology that exists today without a huge investment like another console would require.

Welcome by the way! Forgot that in my last message....

PixeL

So I ordered anaglyph glasses, lcd shutter and I am bidding on a 24" CRT on eBay. Well I keep you updated.
Oh just installed the iZ3D drivers and tested with NfS:Pro Street. Looks that it is working. Tho I needed to dramatically decrease the resolution because my gfx card sucks ^^ Working in the way that I see some strange colors, anaglyph glasses not arrived obviously.

Too bad this guy won't ship to Europe http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... :IT&ih=006
So cheap mah no single bid yet.

Sometimes they will ship overseas even though it doesn't mention it.

I ask him days ago.

Can stereo3d be summed up quite like this ? Only for gaming purpose...

)=- Monitor solutions -=(
[Budget]
- Anaglyph glasses work with every type of monitor. (10$)
- Driver either iZ3D (ATI+nVidia) or nVidia
[Budget]
- TFT + eDimensional shutter glasses (80$)
- Own drivers
- Works with ATI only in interlaced
- TFT + shutter is not working very well
[Budget]
- CRT + shutter (cheap on eBay) (40$-200$ depending on monitor)
- works with nVidia gfx cards only (series 6+7) and no SLI
[Advanced DIY]
- 2x TFT with half mirror and polarization (80$ for the mirror, 2x TFT)
- Not working with every TFT display
- Drivers nVidia only
[Advanced consumer endproduct]
- Either Zalman (500$ ??) or iZ3D (1000$ + 250$ shipping to europe) 22" display with polarization
- Both bring own drivers.
- Zalman is interlaced, iZ3D offers full resolution

)=- Projector solutions -=(
[Budget]
- Singe DLP projector with shutter glasses (~800 for a 720p)
- same driver issues as for CRT
[Advanced]
- 2x DLP projectors with polarization foil mounted (minimum of 1700$ for 720p)
- Silver screen needed
- nVidia only

)=- TV solutions -=(
- DLP TVs with 120Hz needed (not available in europe) (costs about 2000$ upwards)
- Working with shutter glasses and nvidia

)=- HMD solution -=(
[Budget]
- Viszux V920 (400$)
- Drivers (no idea)
- Low resolution
[Advanced]
- eMagin Z800 (1200$)
- Drivers (no idea)
- Product running out because eMagin refocusing on high end industry

)=- Driver Issues -=(
- Tridef DDD seem to work with every card and solution but not much games supported yet. (5$ per game)
- nVidia cards (6+7 series) with outdated drivers work with nearly every solution
- iZ3D drivers work with many games, but only anaglyph or with their monitor

Future:
- Laser TVs from Mitsubishi in 2008 (end of year for approx 1000-2000$)
- TDVision HMD in 2008 (march for about 1500$)

As far as I know this is enough. Personally I would do a DLP shutter glasses option if I wanted to spend ~$1000, after testing it for suitability of course. You need to budget $200+ for a bulb replacement, I would use a service, you send them your reflector and cage and they will just replace the bulb and ship it back, possibly buy a spare from the Mfr, and use that to send away for the replacement, that way you are never down if you use this for a TV/PC.

As for the Planar, I think you need to check a local glass shop and they will have some half-mirrored glass. Cheaper and higher quality than the online options. If you just want to test out the setup, borrow another screen like yours (or within 2" Diagonal, simply move the larger one farther from the mirror) and use plain glass (non-mirrored) with a $3 pair of glasses. If you see this through the glasses then you are good with your screen, simply get another one:



Alternatively a simple mirror and any two screens (CRT, LCD, any size within 2" diagonal) will allow you to try some of your games and see if Planar is something you want to pursue: http://www.crystalcanyons.net/pages/Tec ... ewing.shtm

If you want to game on XP I recommend a 7900 series card with 512MB of RAM, on ebay they are closing in on $130-150, I would look for one with a heat-pipe and ramsinks, they can clock to 650-700mhz core with those.

I hope that all the driver nonsense is sorted out and we can start enjoying just playing in 3D soon.