Is the S3D HMD market dead?

Post by **yomer** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:15 pm

Did the overpricing of the emagin Z800 mark the turnpoint in the S3D HMD market death? eMagin and TDVision were supposed to be the "saviors" of this market. So, what now. What if I'm looking forward to getting into VR/S3D gaming with HMDs. $1200-1500 is a lot for SVGA HMD. Do the new Nvidia drivers and iZ3d still support HMDs?

Where do we go from here?

Post by **UndeadD3vi1** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:37 pm

Do you know how hard it is to achive the DPI needed for high-resolution HMD's? Frankly I'm amazed SVGA HMD's even exist!

iz3D suports them, but nVidia no longer do as far as I know. (Side by Side right?)

You'll find this link intresting as it means the future may be alot brighter for HMD's! Simply this is amazing, each pixel is around the size of a Human Red Blood Cell!

Post by **yomer** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:05 pm

Well, if it's cheap enough. Then again, initial product prices will surely be affected by R&D costs.

The question that still boggles me is: Did eMagin raise the cost of the Z800 because they were losing money per unit sold or because they want to target higher budget audiences?

Edit: What brought my attention back to HMDs was the video of the VR Game Gun. You cannot play with a device like that with the newest 82" inch DLP 3D TV. I would definitely like S3D in a very big screen, but I would give anything to play like that guy in the video with an HMD and S3D.

Post by **DavidGhast** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:12 am

Unfortunately the downfall of the HMD market is due to the incompetence of the half assed companies who support it. Take TDV for example, they promised an HD HMD, then didnt deliver, then stated that it was never going to happen and that they're going to focus on software or whatever (like anyone cares about their software), and still have their front page listed with info on the their HMD's as if they were already selling them, and what, this is more than 6 months after they announced they were abandoning production?

With the z800 around $1300 as the standard of mid grade HMD's and the next tier up being $10,000 for an HD HMD (thats $10k up front by the way, he wont do payments), and a host of HMD's in the 30k-100k range, it makes you wonder if these companies have any business sense at all, or if they're hoping some institution is going to come along and give them a years salary +R&D off of one unit.

And advertisement? They're too good for that, people should come to their front door and beg for the chance to pay 10,000% of what the HMD is actually worth.

The HMD market isnt dead, its just disappeared up its own ass.

Post by **cybereality** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:00 pm

Well you guys are forgetting the VR920! Its a relatively decent (albeit low-end) stereo3d HMD that is available today for around $300. I've got one, its not so bad. I mean, the resolution is only 640x480 but it does accept up to a 1024x768 signal and it still looks good. It has headtracking for some games and even more if you use GlovePIE. It has its own native stereo driver which is really good for the games it supports and it also works with the IZ3D driver. If you are set on getting an HMD its really the *only* reasonable option you have today. Personally I would rather have a 3D monitor than the HMD (my VR920 is in a box since I got the Zalman), but its not a bad buy for $300.

http://www.vuzix.com/iwear/products_vr920.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On the topic of other HMDs: eMagin was just a horrible debacle. Right when they started doing ok they got under new management and they totally killed the company (and the HMD market for a while). No one aside from a few academics are going to pay $1500 for their visor. Especially not when they were previously selling for $500. On TDV, I feel sorry for them. They had some promising technology and some decent software and for whatever reason were not able to reach the finish line. Maybe they ran out of investment funds, maybe the market just isn't ready, maybe the recession bit them in the butt, I don't know. But at this point I'm not holding my breath for them to deliver.

Other than that I think Vuzix has the VR1440 in the pipeline and I think eMagin even has a new model planned. So the market isn't "dead". Its just in a bit of a slump, but I think it will stay alive.

Post by **yomer** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:31 pm

Well, some news from the companies wouldn't hurt. At least a roadmap on their next models. I'll take a look at Vuzix. What I would like is something on par with the Z800's image quality but with dual input and above average head tracking.

Post by **martinlandau** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:33 am

Yomer there were places selling a dual input Z800. I saw schematics once for how to modify your own with some new electronics installed. Also you may want to consider the leep vr stuff. They had a 180 FOV, much better than the puny FOV of the z800. Speaking of which I don't understand why Neil doesn't push FOV more than S3d. I have read several papers that a huge FOV matters more than S3d for tricking our brains.

http://www.leepvr.com/38comparison.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **Okta** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:02 am

I think the best bang for buck at the moment is the Headplay. I almost scored one off ebay a few weeks back and spent some time researching it. Not many proper reviews around but the biggest info i found come from RC aircraft users forums who use them for flying. They have 800x600 and can do page flipping.

I just tried out my first hmd http://www.22moo.com.au/products/argoPC3D.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; i scored secong hand off ebay for $200au. Might get around to doing a mini review but ill just say thats it what it looks like, a poor mans vr920 with no head tracking.

After using my first hmd i can see some of the problems companies face. I think they dont want to use to large a FOV because it make you want to turn your head to look at the edges of the screen and when you do you get disorientated unless the application has propper head tracking independant of your gun aiming. This also limits the display for other uses like movies and even computing. The display chips they are using in a lot of HMD's are really tiny which i would not think is too our benefit. A larger screen would be easier to make optics for with a larger FOV.

Its not looking good. Game makers need to implement stereo and also independant aiming and tracking (maybe the growing uptake of trackir type use will spur this on) and HMD makers need to target the pc gaming market. With a dieing PC market this doesnt look like happening.

Post by **martinlandau** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:47 am

From an ebay listing for headplay:
Patented technology delivers separate, but identical images to each eye from a single micro-display, thereby helping to eliminate eye-strain

So this uses shuttering to achieve s3d? The z800 didn't give me bad headaches, but it had 2 seperate displays - OLED displays at that. I wonder if this thing gives you headaches.

Post by **cybereality** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:56 am

Problem with the Headplay is that it relies on page-flipping and thus the old Nvidia XP drivers. You are basically throwing your money away on obsolete tech due to this issue. Same thing with pretty much any other generic HMD on the market. If all you want to do is play Unreal Tourney 2004, then maybe thats ok. But anything newer and you are screwed. Thats why I was saying the VR920 is the only sensible option since it has modern driver support.

Post by **DavidGhast** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:28 pm

the z800 doesnt use the new nvidia drivers?

Post by **UndeadD3vi1** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:39 pm

Yeah nVidia don't care about HMD's. Thankfully iz3D supports them.

Post by **cybereality** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:10 am

No, the new Nvidia drivers *ONLY* support the 3D Vision and the Zalman. All the HMDs that used to/still claim to work in 3D don't because Nvidia don't support them no more. This includes the Z800, VR920, and all the generics. The IZ3D driver, AFAIK, only has support for the VR920 and maybe the few HMDs that support dual input (like the custom Z800). So if you have the standard Z800, i-glasses, headplay or basically any other HMD you are still SOL.

Post by **Okta** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:33 pm

There are rumours that the new xp quadro driver supports generic shutters so that would be some level of support if true. And if you can flash your 8 or 9 series card to use them would be very handy.

Post by **craylon** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:51 am

about the hmd market:

shouldnt the displays get cheaper and cheaper ?
with everyone owning mobile phones, iphones, netbooks and so on the display companies should sell them at a fraction of the cost they were some years ago and the market for higher dpi like full hd on your iphone or netbook would be there as well...

Post by **Okta** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:07 am

The displays used in phones are a lot bigger and lower resolution than HMD's. Im not sure why they choose such small displays aside from power consumption for HMD's but i imagine it adds a lot to the cost.

Post by **yuriythebest** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:52 am

try this experiment- enable the camera in your cameraphone and cover your face from the sides with your hands while holding the screen in front of your eyes- try walking around and stuff

(spoiler: it will suck)

Post by **Okta** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:26 am

If it is set up with the correct optics it would rock.

Post by **yomer** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:32 pm

Given that the best option in the market being the z800. I might need one for a project I'm working on.

Is the dual input Z800 worth the extra cost? I mean, my obvious answer would be no. But are there better possibilities for driver compatibility in the future with the dual input version?

If I needed the z800 for a project, would it be a good investment having dual vga inputs? Does anyone have those?

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:15 pm

yomer wrote:Is the dual input Z800 worth the extra cost? I mean, my obvious answer would be no. But are there better possibilities for driver compatibility in the future with the dual input version?

The dual input Z800 is going for like $2,200, which is insane. The advantage of this model is that it will work with the iz3D driver so you have modern support. The disadvantage is that, well, it costs $2,200. You really should be absolutely sure you need an HMD before going down this road. For that amount of money you could easily build a dual projection rig for a far bigger screen and larger audience. Or you could spend $300 on the VR920 and also get a whole new computer. Or for that price you could buy a VR920 *and* a Zalman Trimon *and* an IZ3D monitor *and* a Viewsonic 3D-Ready projector *and* the Nvidia 3D Vision Glasses. Sure the Z800 might be the best HMD available but in no way is it worth even half of what they are asking.

Post by **yomer** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:55 pm

I completely agree with you. The problem with the VR920 is that you would need page flipping drivers, which iz3D hasn't polished yet and you know that NVidia is not supporting those anymore.

I read a review from a guy in stereo3d.com who said that the difference between the Z800 and the VR920 was night and day. With the reduced field of view, it's like seeing through a keyhole. I'm onto a VR project, but I don't know if the cheaper HMDs will be enough for the immersive experience; even if you get to cover them to prevent light from getting in.

I might have to go with the VR920 first. But it bothers me that there are still no consumer friendly (aka cheaper), good quality and high resolution HMDs. And at 640x480, it might not be enough.

Edit: Wait, the VR920 have a native resolution of 640x480. The comparison I told you from the other page was from icuiti V920 which are more less the same as the "new" vuzix VR920.

The only comparable HMD seems to be the I-glasses i-3PC, but the field of view is too small. 70" @ 13ft v.s. 105" @ 12ft of the Z800. It seems that the "looking through a keyhole" analogy could describe the I-glasses.

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:45 pm

I'm pretty sure the IZ3D driver actually has a VR920 mode (separate from the page-flipping mode) which should suit your needs. This is one of the main reasons I was recommending the VR920 in the first place. However, that is about the only plus I can come up with aside from the price. I will say that the VR920 has a sort of tunnel-vision effect due to the small FOV. I think its 32 degrees, which is about on par with anything else under $1000. The Z800 is 40 degrees which is a decent amount larger. The VR920 is also native 640x480 while the Z800 is at 800x600. Plus I hear the Z800 headtracking works a little better. I've never got to try the Z800, but based on specs alone its obviously a better product. The real question is if its that much better to justify the cost? I don't know about that.

I'll be honest though, the VR920 does fall short in the immersion factor. I would be lying if I didn't say I wasn't a little disappointed when I first tried the headset. The virtual screen size really isn't all that big. I wouldn't go as far to say its like "looking though a keyhole", but thats not so far from the truth either. They claim it looks like a 62" screen viewed at 9 feet, which is technically accurate, but it looks more like a 21" screen viewed at 2 feet. With headtracking on and with the immersion shield it does help a bit with the immersion, but at the end of the day the peripheral vision is just not there. However I am not convinced the Z800 is going to completely solve all those issues. While it surely has a larger image its not like you're going to put the visor on and be in the matrix. If you go in thinking that you are just going to be disappointed, especially for that kind of money.

FYI: The Icuiti VR920 and the Vuzix VR920 are the exact same product, the company just changed their name. I think the new version comes with a different nose-piece but thats about it. The model I own is actually the Icuiti version (I got from the first batch available though the pre-order so I've been using it longer then probably anyone else). In case you were wondering the hardware inside the VR920 is actually a Kopin CyberDisplay, which is also used on some of the generics: http://www.kopin.com/bdm-922k/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **wuhlei** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:29 pm

yomer wrote:Well, some news from the companies wouldn't hurt. At least a roadmap on their next models. I'll take a look at Vuzix. What I would like is something on par with the Z800's image quality but with dual input and above average head tracking.

agree but i don't care about the head tracking there are better solutions online that focus on it.

Post by **UndeadD3vi1** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:01 am

Ok, after extensive reading, etc I think its safe for me to say this appears to the be problem with the HMD market.

The problem is there is no Competition! It looks like Kopin are literally the only makers of High DPI LCD/OLED Screens and they charge a arm and a leg for a high resolution panel! (Its in their nature, they mainly sell to Military and other companys that have this kind of money to spare.)
To make a 1024x768 HMD with 2 LCD's would cost over $8000 per unit using them! Unless your expecting to sell over a million of the HMD's. In which case my guess would be a saving of $2000 at most per unit!

And in reply to the craylon, The DPI of PDA's and Laptops are considered extreamly low when compared to these screens! (And FYI The iPhone is 320x480)

Post by **Okta** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:35 am

I think Undead has the truth of it. Until a major player steps in and mass produces better cheaper displays things arent going anywhere in a hurry. If the 3d revolution hits over the next few years we may see interest from somewhere so tack a few more years onto that.

Whow knows where HMD VR could be in 10years. XGA and higher for $400. Wow, cant wait.

Post by **Okta** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:40 am

There was also the rumour of the VR1440 (800x600) floating around from some info in a pdf but it looks like it could be a fake.

Post by **yomer** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:43 am

There are several companies in continuous development of small screens. For example:

Kopin, of course:
Kopin microdisplay

Epson:
Epson projector screens

MicroEmissive Displays:
MicroEmissive Displays

It seems that Epson uses their small LCDs for projectors. Does this mean that the LCDs and OLEDs used in projector units can be used for HMDs? Because if this is true, then there is competition in the market for microdisplays. At least, now there is.

Post by **UndeadD3vi1** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:04 am

MicroEmissive Displays are no where close to the required DPI for High Resolution HMD's. And I'd be willing to bet they're pretty expensive for their Low Resolution screens. (320x240, yet they claim "The full colour eyescreen® combines superb TV quality moving video images" - You should not respect a company that says something like this! I personally think of this as False Advertising)

As for Epson, they sound promising, However I get the feeling "High Temperature" isn't refering to the color-temp. Does anyone know if this means Physical Temp?
Anyone got the details of the Epson CEO's or Research & Devolopment Department? Maybe we should suggest they try and make a decent HMD.

But talking of Projector LCD's, Mobile Phones are set to start having Tiny LCD Projectors built-in!!! This is perfect for us
Assuming people like having projectors built-in-to their phones, Competion would be established on a wide-scale. Kopin will be forced to lower prices to compete in the market and keep their reputation as the best LCD company as well if this happens. It would still be a while until we see a 720p HMD on the market for a affordable price though.

Post by **yomer** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:43 am

You're right. MicroEmissive got stuck with low resolution displays long ago.

As for Epson, their best HTPSTFT is a .94 inch 1920x1200 display. I think that by high temperature, it means the process by which they are made.

Edit: Here, I just found a small abstract on a IEEE paper. It seems that higher temperature means better performance. It makes sense. IEEE TFTs

Post by **UndeadD3vi1** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:37 am

Ok then, so does anyone reckon its worth contacting Epson and asking about the L3C09X-81G00 (0.95" 1200x800 - 16um) panel? It would be perfect for HMD's if the price is right.

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:49 pm

You guys are still forgetting about the optics. Even with a 1080P microdisplay, unless you have some really good optics its still going to be restricted to a measly 30-40 degrees FOV. In my opinion this is an even bigger issue than the resolution.

Post by **yomer** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:38 pm

Actually, I don't think the optics are much of a problem here. If you don't have the right microdisplay, the best optics wouldn't serve much. Optics are just a mathematically designed lens to correctly "modify" the image and bring it to the eye. If you have a 1024x768 display and you use a specially designed elliptical lens to bring 180° FOV, the image would be greatly distorted at the edges. You need a big enough microdisplay with an optimal resolution so that display renders the image in a way that the lens merely takes care of rearranging the view for the light to get properly to the retina/pupil. The problem with today's tiny low res displays is that even with a good lens, you cannot use the small area of the displays to create a big enough image. You would then notice the real low resolution of the display by being able to look at the dots/pixels.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself correctly, or maybe I'm talking out of my a$s, but I think I'm more less on track. At least logically.

There are two options here. Cheaper and bigger high resolution displays + normal optics V.S. More expensive smaller higher resolution/dpi displays + special optics to augment the image for the eye(if it has a very small dpi, the dots won't be noticeable.

Post by **phil** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:43 pm

Just thinking out loud... Does the fact that OLEDs are easily bendable give us anything useful for HMD designs? Could that simplify the optics maybe?
You know like when you put your hand round a cold glass of beer and you see your magnified fingerprints? *burps*

Post by **yomer** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:49 pm

Check this out:

Emagin OLED-XL (1280x1024)

If E-magin would put these on the next z1280, and have a sub $1499 price and dual VGA input, I could see myself buying one of those. But the most probable thing to happen is a new HMD that's going to cost about $3000+ and without dual VGA inputs. Nowhere in the news article does it mention a dual input prototype.

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:00 pm

yomer wrote:Check this out:

Emagin OLED-XL (1280x1024)

If E-magin would put these on the next z1280, and have a sub $1499 price and dual VGA input, I could see myself buying one of those. But the most probable thing to happen is a new HMD that's going to cost about $3000+ and without dual VGA inputs. Nowhere in the news article does it mention a dual input prototype.

I'd honestly be surprised if this high-res visor ever even comes out. Remember, they supply display modules as an OEM to the military, etc. Just because they demoed their display as an HMD doesn't mean they have any plans to bring this out as a commercial product.

Anyone want to place a bet on which comes out first: this new eMagin headset, the TDVisor HD, or the VR1440?

Post by **Okta** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:03 pm

The article says commercial and military so if it does come out it will be way overpriced for what it is.

Post by **yomer** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:06 pm

The TDVisor HD is coming out at least until 2011. So between the new Z1280 and the VR1440, I would say that the Z1280.

Edit:
I just found this:

CES 2009 - VR1440

800x600
apparently a 6' screen at ?' away. (Could be confused)
head tracking
No release date or MSRP.

Post by **Okta** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:53 pm

Cool, if the VR1440 isnt vaporware at least its something but i doubt they will have increased the FOV. Vuzix are probably keeping it under wraps to keep VR920 sales going until the 1440 release and pricing models.

Post by **craylon** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:55 am

UndeadD3vi1 wrote:Ok, after extensive reading, etc I think its safe for me to say this appears to the be problem with the HMD market.

The problem is there is no Competition! It looks like Kopin are literally the only makers of High DPI LCD/OLED Screens and they charge a arm and a leg for a high resolution panel! (Its in their nature, they mainly sell to Military and other companys that have this kind of money to spare.)
To make a 1024x768 HMD with 2 LCD's would cost over $8000 per unit using them! Unless your expecting to sell over a million of the HMD's. In which case my guess would be a saving of $2000 at most per unit!

And in reply to the craylon, The DPI of PDA's and Laptops are considered extreamly low when compared to these screens! (And FYI The iPhone is 320x480)

ok i see the problem now

still there are mobile phones with 640x480 even in this generation and i would not be suprised to see some devices go 1024x720 to claim that they can play mobile HD content
i have no clue if these displays would do any good for hmd but i do think that the mass market demand for small, high resolution displays (mobile phones, umpc, hd-camcorder displays) will grow over the years and i hoped hmds would profit from it.

just out of interest:
what would be the optimal hmd-display dpi per eye ? and would these displays benefit from flexible displays?

Post by **yuriythebest** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:22 am

craylon wrote: just out of interest:
what would be the optimal hmd-display dpi per eye ? and would these displays benefit from flexible displays?

I don't think there is a limit to that- I read that the human eye has the sensory resolution of more than 500 megapixels- so the higher the better
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/ ... ution.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so technically the current **high res** 1024*768 hmd's are a joke - then again so are todays displays.