ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

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BlackShark
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ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by BlackShark »

French internet news website Les Numériques managed to interview ATI engineers about their support for S3D, and for once they give very clear and official answer.
Most of us already knew most of them through months of analysing every press release, interview and crossing information from other sources, but it's good to finally get an official public answer.


The article is entirely in french available at the folowing url :
http://www.lesnumeriques.com/films-jeux ... -1080.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
UPDATE :
English version of the interview : http://www.digitalversus.com/3d-films-a ... -1086.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I will summarize the most important points :
-ATI already supports S3D !
(ok we already know that but this is the 1st time I ever see an ATI spokesperson publicly saying this to a "general" media)

-Passive dual projection, Line interleaved and checkerboard 3D have been working for years on ATI hardware and are considered "legacy" 3D. (opposed to the "new" 3D capable displays)

-ATi will not fight Nvidia Head-on with a proprietary system, they prefer to establish an open ecosystem that allows many hardware and software to interact with one another in a free way. They intend to do this through the Open Stereo initiative which they launched this year at the San Francisco Games Developer Conference (GDC).

-The basis for compatibility will revolve around Hdmi1.4a and DisplayPort1.2 connectivity.
-All Radeon HD5000 cards will be compatible
-Some Radeon HD4000 cards will be compatible (mid range and high end cards, not all may work, it will depend on the capacities of each card)
-Manufacturers who wish to use proprietary systems based on proprietary DVI outputs and proprietary glasses are still welcomed to participate, ATI is already working with at least one company that develops such a system (it's not named but I guess that's iZ3D)

-Compatible systems should arrive in the second half of the year, with a clear suggestion that it will definitely be available before christmas, not after.

-No prices are announced but the system as a whole (display + glasses) will be significantly cheaper than the nvidia package because it uses open systems and not a proprietary system like nvidia 3D vision.
-Glasses for shutter systems should preferably synchronize directly with the display, USB sync is also possible but ATI prefers direct sync with the display.
-ATI will not manufacture and sell Shutter glasses, ATI leaves these to third parties or preferably display manufacturers themselves.
-Nvidia 3D vision glasses will not be compatible because Nvidia designed it to be proprietary and not compatible with anything else
-Current Nvidia 3D vision ready 120Hz LCD displays will not be compatible because these displays check that an Nvidia graphics card is connected via a special pin of the DVI conenctor and refuse to work in 3D if anything alse is conencted. This is enforced by the Nvidia 3D vision license

-One of the key software elements to get compatibility working will be the Quad buffer support, at the moment ATI is working closely with iZ3D to get Quad buffer support up and running perfectly, then when it will be fully working, other companies (middleware vendors or game developers) will be able to use it.
-ATI is working with game developers to help them implement Stereo3D support which outputs to the Quad buffer for new games
-Current and older games will require middleware software

(reading between the lines : ATI will not develop it's own 3D driver to convert non Stereo games into Stereo3D games, ATI wants game developers to make their games 3D in the first place)
Last edited by BlackShark on Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by taz291819 »

BlackShark wrote: -One of the key software elements to get compatibility working will be the Quad buffer support, at the moment ATI is working closely with iZ3D to get Quad buffer support up and running perfectly, then when it will be fully working, other companies (middleware vendors or game developers) will be able to use it.
-ATI is working with game developers to help them implement Stereo3D support which outputs to the Quad buffer for new games
-Current and older games will require middleware software

(reading between the lines : ATI will not develop it's own 3D driver to convert non Stereo games into Stereo3D games, ATI wants game developers to make their games 3D in the first place)
And I agree with ATI on this, the games should natively support S3D, like Avatar - The Game.
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by DmitryKo »

BlackShark wrote:-The basis for compatibility will revolve around Hdmi1.4a and DisplayPort1.2 connectivity.
-Glasses for shutter systems should preferably synchronize directly with the display
-Current Nvidia 3D vision ready 120Hz LCD displays will not be compatible
-One of the key software elements to get compatibility working will be the Quad buffer support
Well, IMHO there are good news and there some not so good news.

The good news,

1) ATI/AMD are going to champion DisplayPort for stereo monitors; AFAIK DisplayPort 1.2 shouldn't really be a requirement since DP 1.1a already supports 120 Hz stereo - unless they are going to do a 2560x1440 or 2560x1600 120 Hz monitor which does require 1.2 - so actually most HD4000 with DisplayPort plugs should be compatible, and

2) the standard VESA Stereo plug will be placed right in the monitor which should solve a lot of low-level syncronization problems inherent with USB-based solutions.


The bad news, current 3D Vision monitors are locked to Nvidia cards (I did hope they would avoid such a sillyness), and none of these new Displayport monitors and 3rd party shutter glasses with the VESA Stereo plug are announced by now, so ATI/AMD compatible solutions won't be available until next Spring or even Summer. Hopefully AMD will get their 28 nm HD6000 series by then.


Also I don't like how game developers are forced to render all the geometry twice, when graphics card drivers and 3D rendering runtime could support simultaneous rendering of stereoscopic views, avoiding the geometry and texture lookup overhead which should be substantial for next-generation games. That would however require the level of driver support which ATI/AMD are currently unprepared to offer.
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by tritosine5G »

DmitryKo wrote: Also I don't like how game developers are forced to render all the geometry twice, when graphics card drivers and 3D rendering runtime could support simultaneous rendering of stereoscopic views, avoiding the geometry and texture lookup overhead which should be substantial for next-generation games. That would however require the level of driver support which ATI/AMD are currently unprepared to offer.
[/quote]

sounds like we have mickey mouse 3d now :| I agree :(
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by chowel »

"-The basis for compatibility will revolve around Hdmi1.4a and DisplayPort1.2 connectivity."

Does this mean that 3D TVs that are HDMI 1.4 compliant will be support?
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by Okta »

chowel wrote:"-The basis for compatibility will revolve around Hdmi1.4a and DisplayPort1.2 connectivity."

Does this mean that 3D TVs that are HDMI 1.4 compliant will be support?
Well im sure it means my hdmi 1.3 3d plasma wont be.
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by DmitryKo »

tritosine wrote:sounds like we have mickey mouse 3d now
I'm sorry but this comment seems totally out of context for me. Could you please elaborate a little? :roll:
chowel wrote:Does this mean that 3D TVs that are HDMI 1.4 compliant will be support?
I guess this is what they say in pure French.

BTW I would prefer calling these modes HDMI 3D, since 1080p24 and 720p60 stereo modes do not really require HDMI 1.4 compliance as HDMI Licensing LLC allows older devices to implement 3D support, and in theory both of these modes are within HDMI 1.0 bandwidth limits (in practice though transmitters started to support these rates only with HDMI 1.3, so that should be the common denominator for devices that support HDMI 3D protocols).
Okta wrote: im sure it means my hdmi 1.3 3d plasma wont
If your old plasma supports checkerboard, it is supported right now by 3rd party drivers. As for AMD/ATI Quad Buffer driver solution, hopefully it will also support legacy devices like checkerboard DLPs and plasmas, not only brand-new HDMI 3D and DisplayPort stereo displays; technologically this is very possible to implement.
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by Fredz »

DmitryKo wrote:
chowel wrote:Does this mean that 3D TVs that are HDMI 1.4 compliant will be support?
I guess this is what they say in pure French.
The article says that any HDMI 1.4a and DisplayPort 1.2 monitor will work with their solution.
DmitryKo wrote:
Okta wrote: im sure it means my hdmi 1.3 3d plasma wont
If your old plasma supports checkerboard, it is supported right now by 3rd party drivers. As for AMD/ATI Quad Buffer driver solution, hopefully it will also support legacy devices like checkerboard DLPs and plasmas, not only brand-new HDMI 3D and DisplayPort stereo displays; technologically this is very possible to implement.
They didn't say anything about HDMI 1.3, but they say they are open for working with a company who wants to make a proprietary DVI on a monitor with their own glasses. It will be a specific monitor which will work in a specific manner with their graphic cards.

They consider 120 Hz DVI projectors/monitors to be proprietary. They don't affirm there won't or can't be any compatibility for these solutions, but they insist on the fact that they want to close the door to proprietary solutions.
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by cirk2 »

Sounds good, hopefully this will take off, we need a counterwight for nvidia.

But this part disturbs me:
BlackShark wrote: -Nvidia 3D vision glasses will not be compatible because Nvidia designed it to be proprietary and not compatible with anything else
-Current Nvidia 3D vision ready 120Hz LCD displays will not be compatible because these displays check that an Nvidia graphics card is connected via a special pin of the DVI conenctor and refuse to work in 3D if anything alse is conencted. This is enforced by the Nvidia 3D vision license
I thought so about the glasses, but what is that poop with the displays? Nvidia are greedy basteds...

So that display also won't work in 120Hz on an ati card? Since I don't think that the display recognises if it ist 120Hz 2D or 3D...
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by DmitryKo »

Check 3D films and games with glasses from ATI before Christmas which links to a full English-language version of the interview!
cirk2 wrote:So that display also won't work in 120Hz on an ati card? Since I don't think that the display recognises if it ist 120Hz 2D or 3D...
I guess so. Hopefully Samsung, LG, CMO and company will get me a 27" 2560x1440 120 Hz DisplayPort stereo display by my next birthday :)
Fredz wrote: They didn't say anything about HDMI 1.3, but they say they are open for working with a company who wants to make a proprietary DVI on a monitor with their own glasses.
Don't read it so literary - it was an introductory article, not a tecnhical specification. Their remark about "proprietary" was about the fact that some 120 Hz monitors are locked to Nvidia 3D Vision and just won't work with anything else.

They didn't say half-res formats like line interleaved or checkerboard can't work over DVI/HDMI, and IMHO supporting half-res formats in the driver is as easy as supporting HDMI 3D or DisplayPort 3D formats, since the glasses will sync directly with the display in all of these cases. I don't think they want to further anger the audience by not supporting the legacy formats after all their talk about openness and pointing fingers at Nvidia for making "proprietary" solutions.
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by ssiu »

Hopefully it means ATI will support the optional HDMI 3D 1080p60 modes, unlikely the current b*st*rd 3DTVs that only support 720p60 3D. Since NVIDIA's proprietary 120Hz 3D monitors support 1080p, there is competition, so I am cautiously optimistic.
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by DmitryKo »

ssiu wrote:Hopefully it means ATI will support the optional HDMI 3D 1080p60 modes
What's the use of supporting a HDMI 3D mode which no current 3DTV is able to display?
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by ssiu »

DmitryKo wrote:
ssiu wrote:Hopefully it means ATI will support the optional HDMI 3D 1080p60 modes
What's the use of supporting a HDMI 3D mode which no current 3DTV is able to display?
(1) So that the new "work-with-ATI" 120Hz 3D monitors will support it (if they don't support 1080p 120Hz, they would not be competitive with NVIDIA's propriety 1080p 120Hz 3D monitor solution), and then

(2) So that we can press for the next-year-model new 3DTVs to support it (instead of letting them get away with saying "there is no source material for it, the PS3 only supports 720p60 3D, we have nothing to test with" etc.), and then

(3) I can consider buying one 8-)
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Re: ATi and stereo 3D, ATI speaks clearly (french interview)

Post by DmitryKo »

ssiu wrote:So that the new "work-with-ATI" 120Hz 3D monitors will support it (if they don't support 1080p 120Hz, they would not be competitive with NVIDIA's propriety 1080p 120Hz 3D monitor solution), and then
These new PC monitors will use DisplayPort for stereo 3D, not HDMI.
So that we can press for the next-year-model new 3DTVs to support it
I'd rather see next-year 3DTVs support DisplayPort 1.2.
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