Hands free locomotion demo

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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Zoide »

Okta wrote:This threads getting a bit derailed. Might be best to take non locomotoin discussion to a more suitable thread where many ideas have been thrown around like http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13784
Very well said. Please, let's keep this focused on Jan's device.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Zoide »

JanVR wrote:The device will likely not include any tracking sensors or electronics. Again, trying to keep costs down as much as possible. Hope to get the price closer to the price of a Rift as opposed to the price of an electronic treadmill.
So glad to hear that :)
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by KBK »

Zoide wrote:
Okta wrote:This threads getting a bit derailed. Might be best to take non locomotoin discussion to a more suitable thread where many ideas have been thrown around like http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13784
Very well said. Please, let's keep this focused on Jan's device.
You are right, it was rude of me, but in maybe a few sentences, I can finish up.

the skin on the torus can be loose, and the binding issue and elasticity issue goes away. Slightly larger is all it has to be.

Geared motors (mildly geared) and they are used for tension control. Motors/drive underneath and spaced to keep the balloon from binding and to support the platform. Power requirements should drop dramatically.

Done. works. maybe. the rest is execution challenges, not basic premise, as that part is done.
Intelligence... is not inherent - it is a point in understanding. Q: When does a fire become self sustaining?
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by snorelab »

I have a wild idea for a second iteration of this device. If those supports were modified to be quite strong and the harness was modified to support your weight comfortably, you could add a circular rail around the structure (like a bar rail) that could be used for resting your feet. This would allow for a seated experience in games that offer a blend of walking and riding/driving. If the supports were spring loaded you would even get a little bit of a bounce in your seat which would go quite well with the feel of driving or riding.

In fact, it would be nice to be able to rest for a moment in the game. After walking and running it might be awfully nice to sit down. :|

This could be for the higher priced, deluxe version.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by ElMatarife »

JanVR wrote:That being said, to Edz point, the production costs associated with this device result from its large size. The tooling costs (costs to build molds) for the various parts will likely be high (much higher than for a small device such as the Rift), and so will be the shipping costs. Then there are the costs of the shoes and the waist support assembly. Definitely in favor of providing full clarity and transparency around costs, so I’ll share any data points I can gather. The device will likely not include any tracking sensors or electronics. Again, trying to keep costs down as much as possible. Hope to get the price closer to the price of a Rift as opposed to the price of an electronic treadmill.

I like the comparison with fitness equipment. I think this device could have interesting VR exercise applications.
Yeah, I was thinking the costs are going to be basically that of a large piece of plastic furniture, at a minimum. The gigantic inverted dome isn't something that can be disassembled for shipping at least. And the weight won't be trivial either.

As far as VR exercise goes, I sent the video to a few people with the text "This guy is going to solve the American obesity crisis". For most technical people, working out is just boring. This would get you up and moving in a wide variety of first person games. Imagine how much weight a WOW addict would lose if they were walking around Azeroth on foot! 10,000 steps per day is the goal. This would get a LOT of people there.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Mystify »

ElMatarife wrote:For most technical people, working out is just boring. This would get you up and moving in a wide variety of first person games. Imagine how much weight a WOW addict would lose if they were walking around Azeroth on foot! 10,000 steps per day is the goal. This would get a LOT of people there.
I agree with this. I don't object to physical effort, its just too boring for me to spend time on. if my VR sessions double as exercise, I'd consider that a win/win.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Zoide »

I'd hope that the bowl/dish can be modular, so that you have, say 6 sections that get screwed together underneath. That way you can stack them and ship something that's 1/6th the size rather than putting the whole thing in a gigantic box.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by ElMatarife »

Ever move a pool table? Typically, the slate is in three large pieces. It's a pain to get it perfectly smooth, and that's with a flat surface. I have no idea how to assemble a bowl out of sectional pieces without some nasty seams.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by JanVR »

The platform is actually an octagon consisting of 8 identical pieces and a center zone that can be assembled / disassembled by the user (should probably come pre-assembled in 2 halves). However, given the flat bottom and cylindrically concave top, the 8 parts cannot be efficiently stacked. Shipping won't come cheap, unfortunately. Molds for and production of parts with 18"-24" dimensions are expensive, too. Would a price point in the $400-$500 range be too much for consumers? I currently do not have a good view on costs, so hopefully this can be done much cheaper. Just want to test the water and make sure I am not running into a show stopper.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Linkage1992 »

I'd be willing to pay $800 at most, but then I am an enthusiast! I think $400-$500 is very fair for general consumers, considering most consumer treadmills are around that price point and this offers so much more.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by snorelab »

JanVR wrote:Shipping won't come cheap, unfortunately. Molds for and production of parts with 18"-24" dimensions are expensive, too. Would a price point in the $400-$500 range be too much for consumers? I currently do not have a good view on costs, so hopefully this can be done much cheaper. Just want to test the water and make sure I am not running into a show stopper.
I look at this device and to me it looks like it is in the $299 - $399 range. That's based on taking a (very!) rough guess at your bill of materials and using the following mathematical wizardry:

BOM * 2

;) It's a simple way to give yourself a gross margin of 50%.

Tooling costs will be significant and you'll have to pay up front. BUT, the tooling may not be as significant a factor in the price of the part as you think, depending on sales volume. In my line of work it's pennies to fractions of pennies per part and that is for molds that are very complicated, extremely tight tolerance, that require serious expertise from the toolmaker and are roughly the same size as what you're looking at. For your product it is probably single digit dollars per part, tops. That's not due to the size of the molds, but to sales volume. If you amortize the cost of the tooling over 3 years, for example and you sell 60,000 units in that time and the tooling costs $250,000 (Your product is not my area of expertise, this is a wild, but I think conservative guess) that's $4 per unit. That's hardly something that dramatically changes the price of your device.

As far as shipping costs go...

If you're talking about shipping costs of the components pre-sale this shouldn't be a significant factor in the price of your device. If you're talking about shipping to the customer that is outside of the price of the device.

Please take the above with a grain of salt as we are talking about different industries. Just thought some of this may be a little help and point you in the right direction.

If you go the kickstarter route you would hopefully procure that tooling money from the successful funding and get a read on potential interest in the product. If you're thinking this will only sell in the hundreds of units you would definitely be looking at a more significant increase to the price of the part. But the lower you price it, the more you will sell.

I am just as excited by this type of device as I am about the Rift. And clearly others are in the same boat. I would certainly buy it (and mod it per my post above!). So I imagine this type of device would sell pretty well if priced right and the VR ecosystem develops to support it: HMDs, trackers, developers, vr games etc.

Edit: If there are others who have experience in consumer electronics, peripherals manufacturing please chime in to correct me.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by ElMatarife »

JanVR wrote:Would a price point in the $400-$500 range be too much for consumers? I currently do not have a good view on costs, so hopefully this can be done much cheaper. Just want to test the water and make sure I am not running into a show stopper.
I can't imagine a $400-500 price point being that big of a barrier as long as it seems durable enough to last 5 years or so. As pointed out previously, most treadmills are at least that expensive, if not more. I don't supposed you can "run" on this without feeling foolish?

You need a mandarin translator and a trip to China, I suspect. Or a translator and a lot of time on TaoBao / Alibaba to look for potential partners for some baseline figures.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by STRZ »

JanVR wrote:The platform is actually an octagon consisting of 8 identical pieces and a center zone that can be assembled / disassembled by the user (should probably come pre-assembled in 2 halves). However, given the flat bottom and cylindrically concave top, the 8 parts cannot be efficiently stacked. Shipping won't come cheap, unfortunately. Molds for and production of parts with 18"-24" dimensions are expensive, too. Would a price point in the $400-$500 range be too much for consumers? I currently do not have a good view on costs, so hopefully this can be done much cheaper. Just want to test the water and make sure I am not running into a show stopper.
I'd sell and ship the complicated part, like the ring, shoes, surface material etc. and let the customers source the other parts locally, providing a assembly guide and a link to a source for the parts in their country, maybe making a deal with local dealers offering the parts already cut appropiately :)

Edit: typo
Last edited by STRZ on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Zoide »

I hope this isn't taken the wrong way. I'm sincerely excited by JanVR's invention, and I really think it's the omnidirectional "treadmill" equivalent of the Oculus Rift. I think it has the potential to change the market, and I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I just think that, thankfully, it's elegant in its simplicity. No moving parts, no massive spheres, no expensive arrays of rollers or ball bearings, etc.

That's why I think the comparison to exercise treadmills, while interesting because JanVR's device can help people get off the couch, is misleading price-wise. Sure, treadmills are expensive, but they are big, heavy duty plastic and metal machines with motors, gears, belts, on-board computers, displays, controls, local distributors, warranty, service centers, instructional videos, TV advertisements, etc. I just don't see how a series of grooved plastic panels , a pair of shoes with a pin, and a non-rigid waist harness sold directly to customers could be compared to exercise treadmills for purposes of setting a price.

I think the most logical way to set a price would be to look at the BOM, as snorelab suggested. Nobody is suggesting that you sell it at cost, since you have to get compensated for the innovation/novelty of the device, for the time you have spent testing and prototyping, etc. Plus, everyone deserves to get paid for their work. So let's see how much the BOM would be, and then add a reasonable margin on top of that.

I'm really hoping we don't get to the $400-$800 levels people have been mentioning. Otherwise it will definitely stay a niche item. Sure, you might get 200 crazy VR fans here who will tell you that it's a good price, and they will buy it from you. But once those people have bought it, I doubt many other people will. For, say, $700, you could probably get a 50" LCD TV on sale plus a console. Or you could get two Rifts and buy 5-10 games on Steam. Or you could build a pretty decent gaming PC. And so on. I doubt that people would think "Hey, I'm getting a VR walker and an exercise treadmill, it's a bargain!" For $700 you could get a whole year's gym membership. Plus, I doubt JanVR's device is designed to take 100s of kilometers of fast running, unlike a real treadmill.

I hope this doesn't discourage you, Jan. I really admire and appreciate the work that you are doing! I will certainly be one of your backers once this gets going.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by android78 »

Fredz wrote:I saw something more like this :

Image

but with many inverted motor triplets - one under each ball - in place of their unidirectional treadmill.

In the same vein than the locomotion device in the Disclosure movie too :
Image
I think that having motors under each wheel is a bit unrealistic. My idea is to have a motor for X direction and one for Y (or Z, depending how you label axis).
Imagine this except expanded out to a full 100*100 carpet:
Image
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by TheHolyChicken »

JanVR wrote:The platform is actually an octagon consisting of 8 identical pieces and a center zone that can be assembled / disassembled by the user (should probably come pre-assembled in 2 halves). However, given the flat bottom and cylindrically concave top, the 8 parts cannot be efficiently stacked. Shipping won't come cheap, unfortunately. Molds for and production of parts with 18"-24" dimensions are expensive, too. Would a price point in the $400-$500 range be too much for consumers? I currently do not have a good view on costs, so hopefully this can be done much cheaper. Just want to test the water and make sure I am not running into a show stopper.
Bear in mind that we in this forum are the VR nutters, not your standard people. :lol:
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by android78 »

$400-500 would be a difficult amount for the average consumer to justify, but you could probably sell a few of them to enthusiasts.
Regarding the shipping; you couldn't make it like and Ikea flat pack? I tend to agree with an earlier poster that the 'custom' parts which aren't able to be constructed from every day materials and tools, but leaving the wooden parts out could be the way to go. I say this since I still think that your customers are likely to really be the enthusiasts who wouldn't mind putting in the extra work and might actually like the customizing part themselves.
I think you're likely to get a lot more customers if you could target the $200, keeping it below $300 for sure. Without shipping, I don't think this would be an unreasonable target for base components... but I don't know your costs.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by geekmaster »

android78 wrote:I think that having motors under each wheel is a bit unrealistic. My idea is to have a motor for X direction and one for Y (or Z, depending how you label axis).
Imagine this except expanded out to a full 100*100 carpet:
Image
Ahh... much like a mechanical mouse in reverse, with each ball driven by row and column motors instead of the ball driving optical encoders in a real mouse. And mouse balls would be about the right size too...
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by geekmaster »

android78 wrote:... I think you're likely to get a lot more customers if you could target the $200, keeping it below $300 for sure. Without shipping, I don't think this would be an unreasonable target for base components... but I don't know your costs.
I think that keeping the Rift under $300 is essential to getting a large audience, and setting that target price was an excellent move by Palmer. Many people will not spend more than that for a peripheral device. A consumer passive ODT device is no exception to that rule, so getting the costs down to under $300 somehow is important, to make it more than a fringe device for hard core gamers.

I know that for me (and others), $300 is a sweet spot that determines whether to buy it now, or to save up for it later (maybe)...

However, I agree that for mass-market appeal, $200 is an even better price to shoot for, especially to help overcome the nerd-factor.

And shipping costs need to be reduced by at least making a kit available, much like Ikea furniture...

It all depends on who your target audience is. To target the Oculus Rift users, it needs to be kept at or under the price of a Rift.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by MSat »

Don't take this the wrong way Jan, as I think what you're doing is cool, but I don't see it as a consumer device yet, for the following reasons:

- No built-in tracking system. This puts an additional burden on the consumer in terms of cost, configuration, and lack of generalized game support. I think an integrated tracking system is extremely necessary for a consumer device, but not just one that tracks your feet, but your body overall - including arms.

- The platform allows for 360 degree rotation, but so far all consumer HMDs are wired. That means that a customer would have to further invest in and rig some solution (wireless, backtop, sliprings, etc) in order to fully utilize the capabilities of your ODT.


Your best bet might be to actually provide a complete solution which addresses my points above, and market it to commercial customers such as arcades. This makes the total cost less of a concern, as such machines would be expected to cost thousands, if not 10s of thousands of dollars. Not to mention that a limited number of high paying customers would be easier to manage and support. If you end up being successful in the commercial sector, then you might have the resources to create a consumer-targeted device that resolves those issues (and some of them may just be solved by others with time anyway).

Otherwise, I urge you to look into the fixed system I had proposed which eliminates the cable problems, makes full body tracking easier to implement using something like a Kinect or Xtion, and is likely cheaper all around to produce. Keep in mind, I have no vested interest in such a system other than hoping someone else makes it so that I can buy one :)
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by EdZ »

Looking at Manual Treadmills (unpowered, literally a belt running on some friction rollers), the average price seems to be around $250 (ranging from $150 for cheap models to $1500+ for higher end models). An omnidirectional version could definitely command a premium over these.

Remember that driving the cost down also drives quality down. Building large equipment meant to support a person is very different from building small non-load-bearing housings for electronics. You can't just pump out a plastic lump, you will generally end up with a plastic chassis over a lead bearing frame (often cast aluminium or zamak). Both of these are not cheap to set up tooling for in small production runs.

For consumers, this is already a niche product, at least as a first-gen setup. But an untapped market may be universities and corporate R&D departments. Most cannot afford a powered omnidirectional treadmill or a dedicated open space for a freewalking system, so a device offering most of the utility at a sub £1000 pricepoint might be pretty popular.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by geekmaster »

@EdZ: I think you could make a similar argument using a bicycle as an analogy instead of a treadmill. Bicycles are much more common than treadmills, and also support body weight even on rough terrain. Bicycles cost about the same price range as the treadmills prices you stated.

Should this passive ODT device really have a BOM and Mfg cost significantly higher than a bicycle?

And I agree with MSat about the need to integrate this into a full system solution. We do not want users of this passive ODT hanging themselves on ghetto-rigged overhead power and data cables, or twisting cables until they have internal failures. It is important to remember that it will be rarely used as a standalone passive exercise device. It is primarily a VR peripheral device that is only a part of a larger VR system.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by ElMatarife »

android78 wrote: I think that having motors under each wheel is a bit unrealistic. My idea is to have a motor for X direction and one for Y (or Z, depending how you label axis).
Imagine this except expanded out to a full 100*100 carpet:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.0 ... topic_set= Bill Gross' Energy Innovations had a similar idea for solar concentrators. I'm wondering if the idea could be reverse engineered for an array of large bearings like you're envisioning. "Then, in a weekend flash of inspiration, a young Caltech physics grad named Kevin Hickerson figured out how to reduce the number of motors needed to move 25 mirrors independently, a major cost factor. Instead of two motors for each mirror - the traditional approach - Hickerson's solution requires only two motors for any number of mirrors. The key is a mathematical curve known as the conchoid of Nicomedes (named for the ancient Greek mathematician, who discovered it). A grid of ball bearings arrayed to match the conchoid is attached to a frame inside the Sunflower. As the motors move the frame, the bearings control each mirror's position individually."
MSat wrote:Don't take this the wrong way Jan, as I think what you're doing is cool, but I don't see it as a consumer device yet, for the following reasons:

- No built-in tracking system. This puts an additional burden on the consumer in terms of cost, configuration, and lack of generalized game support. I think an integrated tracking system is extremely necessary for a consumer device, but not just one that tracks your feet, but your body overall - including arms.

- The platform allows for 360 degree rotation, but so far all consumer HMDs are wired. That means that a customer would have to further invest in and rig some solution (wireless, backtop, sliprings, etc) in order to fully utilize the capabilities of your ODT.
I'd imagine the proper way to implement tracking would be a mount for a Kinect or similar motion tracking device. There's no need to build your own solution here when off the shelf ones work pretty well already. As far as the cabling goes, why not just have an collapsible pylon on top of the wait mount to hang cables off of, like a raceway in a datacenter. Rotating too much would obviously still have have some problems, but hopefully you wouldn't ordinarily make a lot more right turns than left turns, for example.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by geekmaster »

As I understand it, the method proposed by android78 only needs two motors. All the horizontal drive shafts would be linked, and the vertical drive shafts would be linked (perhaps with a belt drive). All balls could spin in unison to pull you back to the center. Although the conchoid of Nicomedes is interesting (especially for heliostats), it is not needed here.

For any ODT solution, perhaps the entire platform could be rotated slowly to prevent the cords from getting too twisted, instead of needed wireless video or a backtop computer. This would serve a similar purpose to redirected walking, except on a platform with much smaller surface area.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Moriarty »

Never noticed that the ODT from Disclosure also has a concave surface, it is the granddad of the WizDish and JanVR's device :P :

Image
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by EdZ »

geekmaster wrote:@EdZ: I think you could make a similar argument using a bicycle as an analogy instead of a treadmill. Bicycles are much more common than treadmills, and also support body weight even on rough terrain.
A bicycle supports a mostly static load (sitting on a seat) with motive force directed rhythmically via a rigid hub through a chain link. Suspension softens any impacts from rough terrain. A passive locomotion platform supports the entire weight through one or two variable placed points on a motive surface, and has to withstand repeated full-weight impacts (in the case of running) on that surface. The platform cannot use any significant suspension, as having it move under your feet would easily unbalance you, and be a highly non-intuitive walking surface (think how tricky it is to walk on a trampoline).
Imagine if you laid your bike on the side and jumped up and down on it; it won't hold up very well. A locomotion platform has to stand up to that sort of extended abuse, without flexing, breaking, tipping over or the locating grooves wearing down.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by android78 »

That picture really has got me thinking... the only thing missing from the wizdish/locomotion device in this thread is momentum of the floor. If you combined the idea in the picture, with my idea of having the balls on rollers, the combined momentum of the balls with the rollers should make it possible to walk pretty naturally. The reason a slippery slope by itself doesn't work is because you move relative to the floor with no momentum.
If you think about a floor that is going to take some force to start moving, then will take some force to stop moving, then it will be similar to natural walking. I actually don't think that there would really be a requirement for any motors at all, so long as the combined weight of all components was sufficient.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by geekmaster »

android78 wrote:That picture really has got me thinking... the only thing missing from the wizdish/locomotion device in this thread is momentum of the floor. If you combined the idea in the picture, with my idea of having the balls on rollers, the combined momentum of the balls with the rollers should make it possible to walk pretty naturally. The reason a slippery slope by itself doesn't work is because you move relative to the floor with no momentum.
If you think about a floor that is going to take some force to start moving, then will take some force to stop moving, then it will be similar to natural walking. I actually don't think that there would really be a requirement for any motors at all, so long as the combined weight of all components was sufficient.
You could add floor momentum with flywheels on the two drive motors.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by android78 »

geekmaster wrote:You could add floor momentum with flywheels on the two drive motors.
My thinking is that you don't really need motors at all if you have momentum of the floor. Like you point out, if the combined angular momentum of the components wasn't enough, then you could add a flywheel for each direction.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by MSat »

android78 wrote:
geekmaster wrote:You could add floor momentum with flywheels on the two drive motors.
My thinking is that you don't really need motors at all if you have momentum of the floor. Like you point out, if the combined angular momentum of the components wasn't enough, then you could add a flywheel for each direction.
But then what happens when you stop walking? You either need a completely passive system with as little inertia as possible, or a fully active system that can accurately respond to your desired motions. The former is much simpler than the latter obviously. That said, for an active system, the "easiest" method may be an extremely low friction surface with embedded magnets in the shoes, and an electo-magnet array in the base. This has the possibility of greater area control while being solid state.

Perhaps we should stop hi-jacking Jan's threads, and start a dedicated thread for bouncing around ideas.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by WiredEarp »

For any ODT solution, perhaps the entire platform could be rotated slowly to prevent the cords from getting too twisted,
Thats really quite a clever idea!
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by geekmaster »

WiredEarp wrote:
For any ODT solution, perhaps the entire platform could be rotated slowly to prevent the cords from getting too twisted,
Thats really quite a clever idea!
Thanks. I just thought of that idea while publishing that post.

<rant> I hope nobody patented such an obvious idea. The patent system (and IP protection in general) is getting ridiculous to the point of jeopardizing the existence of the public domain. No more "standing on the shoulders of giants". We would still be in the dark ages if we had to pay roylties (or get cease and desist letters) from megacorporations that owned the ideas of Aristotle, and Galileo, and Newton, and Einstein, and all the other greats on whose ideas our technology is built. We have a sad future ahead unless we can get this global IP monster under control for the good of all. IP has its place, but with Mickey Mouse now an eternal corporate entity, the IP laws will just keep extending his immortality with the side effect of suppressing the introduction into the public domain of other expired ideas. </rant>

I want to try both Jan's device AND other devices, to test the advantages and disadvantages of each. In my case, I have bad knees to deal with, so I need a device that does not stress them by slipping or carrying an extra load. Not carrying the weight of a backtop is essential for me. And whichever ODT platform, protecting the cords from damage (and the user from getting tangled in them) is quite important.

I would certainly use Jan's ODT device if it was an affordable solution AND if it did not cause problems undue stress to my deteriorating knee joints. Whatever ODT device I end up with, I want it to increase my VR immersion experience without tiring me too quickly or stressing my knee joints.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by android78 »

MSat wrote: But then what happens when you stop walking? You either need a completely passive system with as little inertia as possible, or a fully active system that can accurately respond to your desired motions. The former is much simpler than the latter obviously. That said, for an active system, the "easiest" method may be an extremely low friction surface with embedded magnets in the shoes, and an electo-magnet array in the base. This has the possibility of greater area control while being solid state.

Perhaps we should stop hi-jacking Jan's threads, and start a dedicated thread for bouncing around ideas.
What happens when you stop walking in real life? In real life, you stop your own momentum by pushing back with your front foot. It would be no difference if you have no momentum, but are in fact trying to reduce the momentum of the platform that is moving under you.
-- last off topic. sorry
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Zoide »

MSat wrote:Perhaps we should stop hi-jacking Jan's threads, and start a dedicated thread for bouncing around ideas.
There's already a thread for that ;)

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=120&t=13784
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by JanVR »

Good comments regarding the current lack of wireless HMDs; the device will certainly need some sort of cable management. Hopefully Palmer and team can get rid of cables all together soon.

Insofar a fully integrated solution, that might be something for a next generation. The initial objective is to get the device out to as many developers and enthusiasts as possible at a price as low as possible, so that great applications can and will be developed. Similar to what Palmer did with the Rift, I think it will be important to stress to consumers that this is not really a full consumer product yet, since the user will need to come up with additional items to properly use the device (wireless controller / gun, tracking system, VR glasses, and above all, meaningfull applications). This likely won't be "plug-n-play" initially.

For a tracking system, I believe full body tracking is the future, not just walking recognition with sensors in the platform. My vision is that people will meet up in the virtual world, whether in a game setting or other application, and be able to see each others' avatars that mimic their real-world movements and even facial expressions. The best solution for this seems to be optical trackers like the Kinect and the Leap, which are also quite cheap. No need to re-invent the wheel. I hope these optical trackers will only get better over time.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by JonR »

Looks great! Have you considered omnidirectional ball-bearings instead of low-friction shoes? Something in the style of a old-school Rollerblade, but with omni-directional balls instead? I'm imagining a (jointed or even flexible?) plate with 4 wheels on the bottom or on the sides, that you then strap on to any shoe, and glide upon that.

http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/omnit ... 43711.html

I would imagine that this would all but remove all friction?
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by Okta »

JonR wrote:Looks great! Have you considered omnidirectional ball-bearings instead of low-friction shoes? Something in the style of a old-school Rollerblade, but with omni-directional balls instead? I'm imagining a (jointed or even flexible?) plate with 4 wheels on the bottom or on the sides, that you then strap on to any shoe, and glide upon that.

http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/omnit ... 43711.html

I would imagine that this would all but remove all friction?
I don't think that is the goal. The right amount of friction needs to be tuned to get the motion as practicable as possible.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by JanVR »

Ball bearings are actually quite expensive (especially if they need to carry a large load) and take up a lot of space (the housing is clunky and tall). I think the same result can be achieved by a low friction sole. I do like the strap-on idea, which is a solution that could be offered for community-style use of the device, in addition to more personal full shoes.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by colocolo »

JonR wrote:Looks great! Have you considered omnidirectional ball-bearings instead of low-friction shoes? Something in the style of a old-school Rollerblade, but with omni-directional balls instead? I'm imagining a (jointed or even flexible?) plate with 4 wheels on the bottom or on the sides, that you then strap on to any shoe, and glide upon that.

http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/omnit ... 43711.html

I would imagine that this would all but remove all friction?
that reminds me of my old K2 rollerblades and the feeling as i glided
over the asphalt.
And brought me to the idea, that you also could make a concave form
from concrete and use hard rubber omnidirectional ball bearings on your shoes. Perhaps a version for public places or the garden.
I doubt that there are any rubber omnidirectional ball bearings to buy.
But if you laid out a rubber plane onto the concrete form one could use
metal omnidirectional ball bearings.
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Re: Hands free locomotion demo

Post by JonR »

I've seen 4x50kg balls for 20$, but as I don't know the price of your other components, I can't really judge if that's expensive or not. The height problem I imagine could be mitigating by mounting the balls at the side of your shoe, meaning that you could move them higher up as needed. But if a low-friction shoe is as good, then why go through the trouble ;).
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