Low latency, high range fullbody mocap KS for 349-399$

Post by **remosito** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:48 am

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/yei ... eas-moving

I really did not expect this kind of tech at this price to be available for another couple of years at least.

VR is picking up steam so incredibly fast.

PS wher is my finger/hand tracker glove KS

Post by **colocolo** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:42 am

thats nice. Last time i went to YEI website they had an offer about 4,000 $.
VR Rush! $$$!

Post by **yunti** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:18 am

They look to be using 3DOF trackers (as per the rift) so no positional tracking, so I presume the tracking will be limited vs the new Sixense tracking system which can do positional tracking. (Although the YEI demo does appear to track well.).

Post by **remosito** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:29 am

yunti wrote:They look to be using 3DOF trackers (as per the rift) so no positional tracking, so I presume the tracking will be limited vs the new Sixense tracking system which can do positional tracking. (Although the YEI demo does appear to track well.).

They do have a lot of trackers though and with a suitably accurate skeleton model I guess they can "recalculate" position fairly well...

Still not sure if this really will work well enough for positional tracking. Or if final Rift or STEM absolute position will be needed in addition....

Post by **shiva** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:31 am

WOW this is incredible!!!
Been waiting my whole life to get a real VR fighting experience that would recognize precise movements like roundhouses and rotating jump kicks, but wasnt expecting such progress in so little time

Backed instantly, hope it succeeds!

Post by **remosito** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:01 am

shiva wrote:WOW this is incredible!!!
Been waiting my whole life to get a real VR fighting experience that would recognize precise movements like roundhouses and rotating jump kicks, but wasnt expecting such progress in so little time
Backed instantly, hope it succeeds!

Thank you for your post! So glad I am not the only one whose mind just got totally blown and excitedness level is through the roof.
In my opinion this is HUGE and together with gloves and ODT will enable 2nd level VR.
(Rift was 1st level VR enabler imo).

Which one did you get? Lite or Pro?

6 additional sensors and a second input node for 175$. Extra input node might be VERY handy!

From KS page:

• Input Unit
These units consist of a low-power MCU along with accessible buttons and a pin-header interface that allows the connection of additional external inputs such as trigger switches and tactile input buttons. The purpose of these nodes is to allow a flexible, intuitive interaction mechanism.

Depending on number of inputs per node and available bandwidth. Might be enough for the tactical haptics thingie. Or some future or DIY or P5 (http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Reality ... B00007JNFE) gloves

Post by **Namielus** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:25 am

I told you guys!

Post by **virror** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:38 am

Nice stuff, just hope there will be support for it.
We really need some middleware for this kind of stuff because to be honest no matter how cool they are the risk of it becoming an expensive paperweight is pretty big considering how many similar systems being developed now days.

Post by **LukaszMMt1** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:54 am

Got pro.

Now to justify the expense to myself (a poor student), but seriously I'm excited - just a shame it will take so long before they are done with this.

Post by **RoTaToR** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:32 am

*stunning*

While i hovering over the pro pledge button.
Could a dev say how easy/difficult it is to integrate such a technology in a game? I mean its awesome, but without games... it would be worthless...

Reminder (VR gets expensive...):
Oculus Rift - Devkit till Fall 2014 // 300$
Virtuix Omni - Not a Devkit, but totaly new without many games @ Spring 2014 // 800$
Sixsence STEM - Devkit Release @ ~Sum 2014 / 200$
PrioVR PRO - Devkit Release @ Fall/Winter 2014 / 675$
(...and i skip Joystik, Razor Hydra, Wireless Headphones, Pleayseat, Logitech G27, and a view (potential) VR-Games/Kickstarters...)

Post by **blazespinnaker** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:06 am

Yeah, there needs to be a standard for this stuff.

Same for the rift / mobile VR.

Pretty soon I think that's the biggest thing standing in the way of VR... a strong open standard between games and VR so games can be HMD / MoCap agnostic.

Another reason OVR needs to give up on the HMD business and focus on software such as the next Oasis. An open standard will commodify their HMD pretty soon.

Post by **zalo** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:09 am

If they have a nice unity plugin it shouldn't be difficult. Once you're reading orientations from the sensors, forward kinematics on each limb in a standard character model should be dead simple.

Adding walking around with foot positioning will take a little more code (just a little) but they're likely to have prefabs for this stuff.

Post by **Lookforyourhands** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:43 am

I know I'll get backlash for saying this but forget this thing, it looks cool but 1 year away ? No thanks.
Just wait for Kinect 2 to come out in a couple months or whatever. It will be SWEET ! And will most likely
be able to track at least 2 people at the same time, with full limbs & positional tracking

Post by **blazespinnaker** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:54 am

Lookforyourhands wrote:I know I'll get backlash for saying this but forget this thing, it looks cool but 1 year away ? No thanks.
Just wait for Kinect 2 to come out in a couple months or whatever. It will be SWEET ! And will most likely
be able to track at least 2 people at the same time, with full limbs & positional tracking

Yeah, though you will need at least 2 kinects and dual support with the oculus rift as you frequently turn your back to it. Also, hopefully the kinect can handle occlusion caused by such things as the Omni.

Post by **Attreyu** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:45 pm

RoTaToR wrote:Virtuix Omni - Not a Devkit, but totaly new without many games @ Spring 2014 // 800$

It will be 499$, not 800. I don't know about the sensors though, will they be integrated in the end, or will they use an existing technology ?

Also, you forgot about the Viiwok Deva

which will be with integrated sensors and a HMD adapter for 7" tablets - for about 300€ in total.

Post by **cybereality** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:47 pm

Looks awesome.

Post by **remosito** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:40 pm

Attreyu wrote:
RoTaToR wrote:Virtuix Omni - Not a Devkit, but totaly new without many games @ Spring 2014 // 800$
It will be 499$, not 800. I don't know about the sensors though, will they be integrated in the end, or will they use an existing technology ?

Also, you forgot about the Viiwok Deva which will be with integrated sensors and a HMD adapter for 7" tablets - for about 300€ in total.

Most likely 800$ included the shipping charges.....

As for sensors, last I read they plan to use some capacitive tech to track feet while touching the base....

Post by **remosito** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:15 pm

update from a dev on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments ... r_is_live/

While I cannot give exact numbers, I can give you a few ballpark numbers based on our own estimates as well as the current capabilities of the 3-Space Sensor. The 3-Space Sensor is capable of calculating around 800 unique orientations per second depending on the filter mode and other configuration options. The PrioVR sensors will likely not achieve this same throughput due to a wide variety of changes, including a reduction in size and differences in battery life. We will try to find the rate that best maximizes these considerations while still providing responsive orientation updates.
The overall system latency is expected to be in the neighborhood of 5-10ms, from orientation calculation, wireless transmission, and availability on the host machine.

on input nodes:

Hi and thanks for the questions! While we do not have exact figures for bandwidth availability, I can tell you that we plan to have the input nodes provide buttons as well as both analog and digital IO pins. I cannot say for certain that the nodes will not have additional input methods as well. Providing hand and finger articulation is something that we have planned, although I don't believe that this will be part of the actual PrioVR system.
The input nodes will be connected via the same mechanism used for the inertial sensors themselves and can be placed anywhere along the 'sensor string'. And yes, we do intend for the input nodes to serve as both inputs and outputs.
Let me know if you have any other questions and I'll try to answer them the best that I can!

sounds awesome and finger/hand tracking planned as well?!?!?!

if we all support them they might just take us to the next level hardware wise!!!

Post by **airasmussen** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:20 pm

This looks amazing for skeletal tracking! Latency is phenomenal too, but it looks to me like it will drift relatively quickly when it comes to global positioning.

Post by **remosito** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:19 pm

http://www.roadtovr.com/2013/09/04/prio ... ology-7798

interview with their chief of R&D

Post by **crespo80** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:35 pm

Awesome stuff, but really not even close to what a consumer body tracking device should look like, but I can see this used in low budget motion capture projects.
I think the only affordable and acceptable (by the masses) way to track your body in game is by using an external device like the new x1 Kinect, that can do an awesome job and will not make you look a dork!

Post by **remosito** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:57 pm

crespo80 wrote:Awesome stuff, but really not even close to what a consumer body tracking device should look like, but I can see this used in low budget motion capture projects.
I think the only affordable and acceptable (by the masses) way to track your body in game is by using an external device like the new x1 Kinect, that can do an awesome job and will not make you look a dork!

its latency, while improved is still to high! Latency is ennemy number one of convincing VR experiences.

A 4K Rift with high head tracking latency would be a worse experience than a HD one with low latency tracking!

Kinect 2 might be good enough to dork around in front of a screen, ain't cutting it for VR though imo.

http://www.gameondaily.com/kinect-hands ... s-kind-of/

Post by **hast** » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:06 pm

crespo80 wrote:I think the only affordable and acceptable (by the masses) way to track your body in game is by using an external device like the new x1 Kinect, that can do an awesome job and will not make you look a dork!

As much as I love playing with the Rift I think the "look like a dork" battle is thoroughly lost once you prance around with a headset on your head.

Post by **remosito** » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:00 pm

According to KS update they will have some "exciting news" to release tomorrow

Post by **druidsbane** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:08 am

$350 for the lite and $399 for the pro! Not a bad deal

Question is how does one go about getting two of these on the pledges? There isn't an option to receive two and I don't want to just double the pledge and receive one set!

Post by **ChrisAtYeiTech** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:48 am

YEI Technology has updated the prices and delivery dates for the Lite and Pro suits.

The PrioVR Lite was originally $425, which will now be available for $349; and the PrioVR Pro was originally $625, which will now be available for $399.
The PrioVR systems will also be ready to be shipped by the end of May 2014, as opposed to September 2014.

For more information about PrioVR or the Kickstarter project, don't hesitate to reach out to us!

Click here to see official update: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/yei ... ving/posts

Post by **WiredEarp** » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:45 pm

Pretty soon I think that's the biggest thing standing in the way of VR... a strong open standard between games and VR so games can be HMD / MoCap agnostic.

Isn't this pretty much what VRPN is? An open standard for interfacing with any tracker or input device?

I find it kind of annoying how no-one is coding against VRPN, instead choosing to tie their demos to proprietary systems. VRPN is really easy to use and performance seems fine from my experience. Abstracting the hardware to a standard is going to be absolutely necessary once we start getting a proliferation of competing systems.

Post by **Lilwolf** » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:41 am

I'm a little concerned that the amount of hardware solutions coming out with varying degrees of points/precision... Won't this make it so software companies won't support any of them?

I'm waiting until the wireless hydras come out. If they are similar, I'll go with this one... but again, worried that it may end up that no drivers are ever really written.

I kinda wish a group would create some very good / generic drivers... Which game developers could support, that each product like this could support (to some degree)... Kinda like freetrack (or opentrack, whatever it's called).

- Edit -

Another worry about this. Why does the light version not have the sensors on the hand? Seems like one on the elbow and one on the hand would be enough for most.

And it would be cool if they added a 5 point version (2 on feet, 2 on hands, one on head) just for the gamers for cheaper... then allow you to buy new sensors...

Post by **ChrisAtYeiTech** » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:55 pm

Lilwolf wrote:I'm a little concerned that the amount of hardware solutions coming out with varying degrees of points/precision... Won't this make it so software companies won't support any of them?

I'm waiting until the wireless hydras come out. If they are similar, I'll go with this one... but again, worried that it may end up that no drivers are ever really written.

I kinda wish a group would create some very good / generic drivers... Which game developers could support, that each product like this could support (to some degree)... Kinda like freetrack (or opentrack, whatever it's called).

We are planning to have drop in support for the PrioVR systems with Unity3D, UDK, and CryEngine; and our APIs will be free and open source to make it easy for developers and enthusiasts to support other systems and platforms easily.

Our goal is to make it as easy as possible to use PrioVR systems in any platform or project with minimal difficulty.

Lilwolf wrote: Another worry about this. Why does the light version not have the sensors on the hand? Seems like one on the elbow and one on the hand would be enough for most.

And it would be cool if they added a 5 point version (2 on feet, 2 on hands, one on head) just for the gamers for cheaper... then allow you to buy new sensors...

The PrioVR systems are configurable so the sensor nodes can be moved and interchanged. The diagrams on the Kickstarter were suggested layouts that were preliminary and have since been adjusted to include hands on the lite version. New diagrams will be posted soon.

We are also working on a version for the PrioVR designed for gaming that does have fewer sensors and an even lower price!

Post by **Lilwolf** » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:00 pm

Thanks for the reply!

The gamer version... or lighter version? Will that be available as part of the kickstarter? And would we be able upgrade them later (like, hey, my favorite game just upgraded with better support for arms! cool! I just have to buy two more sensors and then my elbows aren't randomly places where it thinks elbows could be)...

As someone who would only use it for gaming, I don't want to be held back, but I don't want to buy extra sensors that I would never have a use for.

Post by **ChrisAtYeiTech** » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:46 pm

I am unsure at the moment, but from what I am hearing, it will most likely be on the Kickstarter in the coming weeks and will likely be upgrade-able by adding additional sensors.

Post by **Lilwolf** » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:33 pm

Great!

I think a game focused package would help the PrioVR complete the kickstarter. Heck, the STEM one is doing amazing, and really, the PrioVR seems like a lot better deal and more versatile. But the STEM will definitely have some game support, and I think that's the worry.

I really hope generic drivers (like OpenTrack) will be setup to work with all these cool input devices. So they each get their fair shake in the games.

Post by **remosito** » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:05 pm

made this collection of developper quotes as some of the info can be hard to find. For example most people don't know there will be input nodes featuring buttons plus connectors to hook up additional input and output (for haptical feedback!)..

Did it for a reddit post : http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments ... fo_quotes/
(if anybody would feel so inclined as to post there too, to keep it on the first page a lil longer)

input node (349$ gives 1,399$ gives 2)

we plan to have the input nodes provide buttons as well as both analog and digital IO pins.

we do intend for the input nodes to serve as both inputs and outputs.
( note by me: output as it relates to transmission of haptic feedback data, as I asked about that)

The input node will have several built-in buttons and will have an open spec connector that will allow flexible input and output options, even from 3rd parties. Right now digital I/O and analog input are planned.

latency

The overall system latency is expected to be in the neighborhood of 5-10ms, from orientation calculation, wireless transmission, and availability on the host machine.

range

the effective range is in the 30m-40m range line-of-sight, which is enough for most home-use setups. We’re investigating adding a low-noise amplifier section and a high-gain antenna option to the wireless base-station design to allow for improvement of the range. Also, the way the system works, it is possible to distribute multiple wireless base-station units across a wide area to achieve very large active areas

battery life

The battery life goal we’re shooting for is 8-10 hours of continuous use. For extending this, we’re also planning on supporting external battery-life extenders like those used for cell-phones and tablets. The system can also be used continuously while it is charging, although you’d be tethered while charging.

topology, hub, max sensors, flexibility

The wearable hub will be a centralized computer system that gathers data from up to 5 sensor strands that each consist of as many as 7 daisy-chained sensors."

We’ve used our sensors for weapon orientation tracking applications

For the final version, the hub will likely be attached to or integrated within the chest-plate of the harness / vest which will be easy to slip on, clip tight, attach the leg sensors, and begin capturing

Software

For software, we’re planning out-of-the-box support for, a refactored version of our Mocap Studio applications which allows recording and exporting of motion-capture sequences for use in animation production, game production, etc. We’re also planning on having drop-in-support with open-source example code for major game engines such as Unity3D, UDK, and CryENGINE as well as several complete working games, complete with source code. We will also provide a flexible and full-featured API with the goal of making it extremely easy to integrate PrioVR with any project or platform.

Post by **geekmaster** » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:10 pm

I just did the $399 PRO today, after I saw it mention in a STEM thread (which I also backed at $299).

I am curious how the PrioVR will work with the Virtuix Omni, with sliding feet. Perhaps it can integrate the Omni capacitive foot tracker data to find the "ground" position to anchor the rest of the PrioVR trackers...

Post by **remosito** » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:22 am

geekmaster wrote:I just did the $399 PRO today, after I saw it mention in a STEM thread (which I also backed at $299).

I am curious how the PrioVR will work with the Virtuix Omni, with sliding feet. Perhaps it can integrate the Omni capacitive foot tracker data to find the "ground" position to anchor the rest of the PrioVR trackers...

I asked them about something similar (mocaping climbing a ladder) and they said you just have to correct the anchor in software in mocap data editing.

The same should be easily doable on the fly in real-time by implementing a "virtuix omni" mode.....

Post by **usb247** » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:29 am

I want to back this but it's not clear how well it works for positional tracking. Do you have to suit all the way up each time just for head tracking to work? Also what is you're playing sitting down but your in game character is standing up?

Post by **LukaszMMt1** » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:53 am

@up

Why would you need positional tracking? If you know the entire skeleton it doesn't matter where your head is in the room as long as it's in correct position in respect to rest of the body.

Post by **remosito** » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:00 am

usb247 wrote:I want to back this but it's not clear how well it works for positional tracking. Do you have to suit all the way up each time just for head tracking to work? Also what is you're playing sitting down but your in game character is standing up?

It looks like they will provide some sort of harness thingie for easy put on/take off....

The way I understand the system works, it needs a fixed anchor plus a good chain of trackers from your anchor to whatever point you want to track.
By default anchor will be your feet.
But different modes should be feasible as well, like above mentioned "Omni Mode" where your feet slide.

Or a "sitting on your arse" mode. Where your buttocks are the anchor. And you'd need a good chain of trackers from your buttocks up to your head. Probably means you'd need to wear a tracker on your hips, one or two on your shoulders, one on your head plus the hub.

If in addition you want to use your hands as well in-game you'd need to add the sensor strings from your shoulders to your hands...

About the sitting down IRL while in VR your character stands....
This has pretty much nothing to do with prioVR (or STEM). But with the game. You just have to configure the game to not use
prioVR or STEM input data for locomotion, but your mouse/keyboard or gamepad....

Post by **usb247** » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:17 am

Thanks guys makes sense. I'll probably back this because It looks like the accuracy will be very good.

Even if it doesnt get much game support surely someone will surely make a sweet sword fighting game.

Also I think it will work well for exploring areas. Imagine a virtual radius the size of your real world space that you can walk around in and explore when you step outside of
The radius your player starts to moving then you can explore a new area. If you have a big enough space you almost wouldnt need an omnidirectional treadmill.

Post by **usb247** » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:42 pm

LukaszMMt1 wrote:@up

Why would you need positional tracking? If you know the entire skeleton it doesn't matter where your head is in the room as long as it's in correct position in respect to rest of the body.

I guess my concern is that the most lazy way developers will support these add ons is with only positional tracking for your head.

So if most games only support head tracking it would be a hassle to have to suit up each time just to duck and peak around corners.