RifTUP! FullHD Oculus DK1 upgrade kit

Post by **baggyg** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:41 am

Attreyu wrote:
Jose wrote:Hello. With the new smaller screen, how will the old Rift demos adjust the stereo projection center to line up with the lenses?
So, based on this and my question, this is the answer I got:

"They will not work out of the box, people will have to recompile with our latest SDK."

So ! You either have to rebuild the games in order to work with the different sized screens (both the DK2 or the RiftUP) (which only the developer can do and would be a pain in the ass for the user, since there would be a lot of DK1 users who wouldn't be able to use their devices after the devs make the adjustments) OR update the games (or the Oculus setup utility) with a simple shader adjuster in software. I presume some kind of save/load preset option would be ideal, letting you choose between the DK1/DK2,RiftUP and other HMDs in the future.

We will handle the shader alteration in Vireio so injected games will be fine.

It is my understanding that Daniel has a simple piece of software that modifies the SDK distance properties in real time such that a existing demos will work and not need to be rebuilt. I maybe wrong but this is certainly my understanding.

Post by **RaNk** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:23 am

It is my understanding that Daniel has a simple piece of software that modifies the SDK distance properties in real time such that a existing demos will work and not need to be rebuilt. I maybe wrong but this is certainly my understanding.

Any chance we can have verification of this. According to the iracing dev Scott Tucker

Looks like they only sold 50 of them (RiftUp!)(or about that), I doubt we will be supporting it any time soon. But MAYBE when the DK2 comes out we can sneak in support.

I sure would appreciate the knowledge as iracing is the main reason i Rift.

Post by **baggyg** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:32 am

RaNk wrote:
It is my understanding that Daniel has a simple piece of software that modifies the SDK distance properties in real time such that a existing demos will work and not need to be rebuilt. I maybe wrong but this is certainly my understanding.
Any chance we can have verification of this. According to the iracing dev Scott Tucker
Looks like they only sold 50 of them (RiftUp!)(or about that), I doubt we will be supporting it any time soon. But MAYBE when the DK2 comes out we can sneak in support.
I sure would appreciate the knowledge as iracing is the main reason i Rift.

Well the IndieGoGo campaign states:

100% software compatibility

A lot of time has been invested to make sure, RiftUP! will be recognized as a VR display and handle content accordingly.

All the VR software runs on RiftUP!
Custom SDK profile for optimal distortion and lens correction

Daniel also sent me this (hope this is ok to share Daniel)

if you look into the OculusSDK, the settings of everything are loaded from the tracker, so we either modify the source code, or patch the binaries to contain our own data.

Hopefully more information will become available soon. I too want to play Iracing with the rift. The current DK1 is too low res to be able to drive imo.

Post by **rozsnyo** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:02 am

Attreyu wrote:So, based on this and my question, this is the answer I got:

"They will not work out of the box, people will have to recompile with our latest SDK."

So ! You either have to rebuild the games in order to work with the different sized screens (both the DK2 or the RiftUP) (which only the developer can do and would be a pain in the ass for the user, since there would be a lot of DK1 users who wouldn't be able to use their devices after the devs make the adjustments) OR update the games (or the Oculus setup utility) with a simple shader adjuster in software. I presume some kind of save/load preset option would be ideal, letting you choose between the DK1/DK2,RiftUP and other HMDs in the future.

We can patch the games with our settings even after they are compiled.
So far the Oculus SDK code is either statically linked or placed in a oculusplugin.dll shared library and in both cases we tried, the code is not obfuscated and can be rewritten - the correct profile injected as constant data. Is this accepted? Well, there is no other way as the lame SDK architect put the configuration into the hardware (the tracker) - it would be much easier to adjust for custom profiles if they thought about that before and just indexed the profiles (from registry or a config file) with a hardware ID.

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:19 am

I assumed the SDK worked with a simple ID code as well?

I must admit, I only looked at the EDID part of the SDK code, and it doesn't seem to do a great deal.

Good news that any games / demos can be patched though.

But, with the DK1 EDID in place, does it force some software compiled with the SDK to output 800p?
I know a lot of demos ask you to choose the resolution, but some just go straight to 800p (presumably from the EDID?)

Also, without patching the games for the 5.9" panel, how different is the warp factor / colour correction (ie. using the DK1 warp on the 5.9" panel)?

Post by **cgp44** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:20 pm

Once the first batch is made, the riftUP! Now option should be removed.

Post by **Inscothen** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:35 pm

anyone?

Inscothen wrote:geekmaster mentioned hid feature report might be used to change parameters. Maybe someone with the ability can create a little program that you can enter various parameters for display dimensions, lens warp, etc...

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:49 pm

I wouldn't have a clue how to code for that, but sounds like a good idea if it's just a little proggy that sits in the System Tray and works for all Rift stuff.

The tracker does use HID though, so I'm sure someone could code a generic thingybob for the RiftUP!.

Post by **baggyg** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:51 pm

OzOnE2k10 wrote:But, with the DK1 EDID in place, does it force some software compiled with the SDK to output 800p?
I know a lot of demos ask you to choose the resolution, but some just go straight to 800p (presumably from the EDID?)

I would very much doubt this since a lot of people like to super sample down the the resolution. There are probably a couple of oddities (like Hawken) but this restriction usually means the Rift Integration isn't that great anyway.

Post by **Inscothen** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:52 pm

jherico said he accidentally overwrote the parameters.... https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/v ... 8&status=1

jherico wrote:I just discovered that the HID feature reports that should be read-only aren't. I accidentally trashed my Rift because the sample code for low level HID access on Linux (found here: http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/sa ... -example.c ) writes to feature ID 9, which is what the Oculus uses for 'DisplayInfo'. I was able to figure this out when I started getting weird behavior on all the devices I plugged the Rift into.

Fortunately, going in and re-writing the feature report with the original values seems to have fixed at least some of my problems, but developers who are trying to bypass or extend the SDK should tread with caution.

Post by **leftbehind126** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:11 pm

RaNk wrote:
It is my understanding that Daniel has a simple piece of software that modifies the SDK distance properties in real time such that a existing demos will work and not need to be rebuilt. I maybe wrong but this is certainly my understanding.
Any chance we can have verification of this. According to the iracing dev Scott Tucker
Looks like they only sold 50 of them (RiftUp!)(or about that), I doubt we will be supporting it any time soon. But MAYBE when the DK2 comes out we can sneak in support.
I sure would appreciate the knowledge as iracing is the main reason i Rift.

Can anyone expand on this more? This is the only reason I really use the Oculus, for iRacing. I'm confused as to what the answer was.

Post by **play2lose** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:17 pm

Happy April everyone!

This is the month that we (hopefully) get our RiftUps

Post by **Spudgy** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:40 pm

leftbehind126 wrote:
RaNk wrote:
It is my understanding that Daniel has a simple piece of software that modifies the SDK distance properties in real time such that a existing demos will work and not need to be rebuilt. I maybe wrong but this is certainly my understanding.
Any chance we can have verification of this. According to the iracing dev Scott Tucker
Looks like they only sold 50 of them (RiftUp!)(or about that), I doubt we will be supporting it any time soon. But MAYBE when the DK2 comes out we can sneak in support.
I sure would appreciate the knowledge as iracing is the main reason i Rift.
Can anyone expand on this more? This is the only reason I really use the Oculus, for iRacing. I'm confused as to what the answer was.

http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts ... ge#7922242

The answer was no for now because not many users will have them, but when they do the work for DK2 support they'll see what they can do. That means it probably won't be supported until the October build unless they get a DK2 early and manage to do the changes in time for the build at the start of August. Shame they didn't just allow higher resolutions like people have always been asking for.

Post by **baggyg** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:08 am

leftbehind126 wrote: Can anyone expand on this more? This is the only reason I really use the Oculus, for iRacing. I'm confused as to what the answer was.

Contary to what Smudgy said, the answer was actually that this "should" work since rozyno will have piece of software that can be used to change the Oculus SDK. However are you saying that I-racing will only run 1280x800 currently in Rift mode? I tried it and thought you could increase the resolution. If I were you I would contact rozyno directly and ask this question. My feeling is that it should be fine, but he may be able to test it since he claims 100% software compatibility.

Post by **FR3D** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:40 am

i backed too,

i hope hl2 and skyrim (vireio) will work ...
teso online ?

FR3D

Post by **Ryuuken24** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:24 am

People that bought the HD kit on Ebay are so damn quiet about it, makes me wonder who bought it. Wanna know how the demos look in HD, some people are so selfish.

Post by **rozsnyo** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:32 am

I suspect they have never received it. We are awaiting the first final boards from the fab with all the bugs resolved. The difference from the photos of design posted earlier here are:

- final solution for strobing at vsync: board now allows to switch to 2x higher brightness and then operate it at 50% duty cycle
- three usb ports from the hub on standalone model (cam/cam/tracker or cam/audio/tracker devices)
- fixed power supply issue (would work from 4.5V up to 16V, important for standalone)
- fixed i2c bus switcher, now all devices are on separate branch so no more conflicts

We will ship hopefully on Monday/Tuesday the units for first 2-3 NOW! kit buyers.

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:29 pm

Hi, Daniel,

Just a few more questions (sorry, I know you're busy)...

Will the Vsync strobing have a "failsafe" on it, so it will switch back to normal LED current / brightness when above 50% duty cycle?
Have you tested backlight strobing yet, and did you notice any good improvements with reducing persistence etc?

With the software patches you have atm, does it work pretty much generically for changing the tracker "display parameters"?

For iRacing, I would hope that it would be using the standard SDK API, so the output resolution should be based on the detected EDID and / or the parameters stored in the tracker. If the software for the RiftUP! patches these parameters, then the game should change to the correct preferred resolution for the display.

This is all under the assumption that Rift implementation under iRacing is following the SDK rules correctly?
(tbh, I'm not even sure about the exact rules the SDK uses, but I seem to remember that it does have templates for preferred resolution etc.)

Glad to be getting the RiftUP! so soon.
I think it will be a long wait for the DK2 again, so I'll have to put it out of my mind like I did with the DK1.

OzOnE.

Post by **Spudgy** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:34 pm

iRacing restricted to 1280x800. You can't change the resolution when it's in rift mode. Whether they get the res from the device or they've just hard coded it to 1280x800 I don't know. I guess we'll find out when someone gets their kit.

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:06 pm

That's what I'm thinking, Spudgy - it might just be that it's reading the EDID on the Rift, which has a "preferred" resolution of 800p.

I still have the Rift EDID in the registry on this PC, and this is what MonInfo says, so there's definitely a preferred res at least...

Monitor
Model name............... Rift DK
Windows description...... Generic PnP Monitor Rift DK
Manufacturer............. OVR
Plug and Play ID......... OVR0001
Serial number............ SerialRD
Manufacture date......... 2013, ISO week 24
Filter driver............ None

Timing characteristics
Horizontal scan range.... 30-83kHz
Vertical scan range...... 56-76Hz
Video bandwidth.......... 230MHz
CVT standard............. Not supported
GTF standard............. Not supported
Additional descriptors... None
Preferred timing......... Yes
Native/preferred timing.. 1280x800p at 60Hz (16:10)
Modeline............... "1280x800" 71.110 1280 1328 1360 1440 800 803 809 823 +hsync -vsync

So, maybe it will pick up on a Crystal Cove type EDID, then set iRacing to output at 1080p as a preferred mode?
This is all guess work of course, as we'll have to test it as you say.

You could test this theory though by writing the Crystal Cove EDID to an EEPROM, then starting iRacing.

The problem is as we know - there are other HID parameters stored in the Rift tracker which tell the SDK the type of screen / warp factors etc.
So it might not be straightforward until we can confirm what the RiftUP! patch software can do.

I am interested in getting into iRacing with the RiftUP! and DK2. Should be a ton of fun.

OzOnE

Post by **cgp44** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:45 pm

just a repeat of the link in a few pages back for any curious lurkers.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/riftup

Post by **vittorio** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:40 am

I was searching a lot for FHD displays and boards. I'm very happy you solved this and offer this great solution. Can't wait to get it!

I want to use it primarily for rFactor2 + Tridef + Rf2Rift plugin. Racing sims really need as much resolution as possible.

Karel Hulec wrote in the indiegogo comments:
"..all the VR content capable of running @DK1 is compatible.
Including but not limited to Oculus SDK+Valve VR experiences and both Vireo and TriDef 3D supported games."

Does this mean you already tried Tridef with the RiftUP! kit and everything was OK? 1920x1080 resolution, FOV, warping and chromatic aberration correction?
If so I could recommend RiftUP! as a working FHD solution on the rFactor2 forum.

Post by **Hewster** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:24 pm

I've been doing some calculations based on the image showing the FOV differences between the DK1 and the RiftUp! screen.
https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attac ... up-fov.png

I wanted to get a handle on the pixel density differences between the two, and a potential 1440p screen.

I've taken into account the unseen areas of the screens (based on the image).

Below are my calculations:

First working out the overall dimensions of the viewable screen and pixel density.

7" 800p DK1 effective size (taking into account portion of screen unseen)

1172px x 595px (5.491" x 2.784") = 697340 (15.29" squared)
= 45607 pixels per square inch

__________________________________________

5.9" 1080p RiftUp! effective size (taking into account portion of screen unseen)

1920px x 975px (5.12" x 2.6") = 1872000 (13.32" squared)
= 140540 pixels per square inch

__________________________________________

5.9" 1440p effective size (taking into account portion of screen unseen)

2560px x 1300px (5.12" x 2.6") = 3328000 (13.32" squared)
= 249850 pixels per square inch

===========================================

Now, I would say that there is a 1.5" diameter area directly in front of each eye, that I call the sweet spot, which is the viewable area of the screen where pixel density is most important.
See pic:
http://aev-uk.com/misc/mtbs3d/riftup-fov_huey.jpg

This area = Pi * (1.5 / 2) squared = 5.55 squared inches per eye
So the pixel density in the sweet spot for each screen is:

7" 800p = 45607 * 5.5 = 250,838 pixels
5.9" 1080p = 140540 * 5.5 = 772,973 pixels (3.08 times DK1)
5.9" 1440p = 249850 * 5.5 = 1,374,175 pixels (5.48 times DK1)

Using this info, my best guestimate.. we need a 1600p, 16:9, ~6.5" screen to achieve:
120 degree (diagonal) FOV with 1 Mega pixels within the 1.5" dia sweet spot per eye.

TL;DR
RiftUp! has effectively 3 times the pixel density of DK1 in the sweet spot
a 1440p screen would have 5.5 times the pixel density of DK1 in the sweet spot
a 1600p 6.5" screen could give us 120 degree FOV with 1 MegaPixel per eye in the sweet spot.

Really looking forward to my RiftUp!

Post by **ido** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:00 pm

I haven't been able to keep up with this as much as I would have liked. Work has been busy lately, but I have a question that hopefully has been answered.

After installing this mod, does it operate just like a standard DK1? If not, what all changes are required in order to play my slew of demos correctly.

And further, will any of this affect these demos once DK2 is released?

For example, if I want to play the horror game, Affected. After installing this mod physically, what else will be required to open up the game, and play as I would right now with my standard DK1? And, assuming something needs to be changed or modified in order to play my demos correctly, what would be the reverse process to be sure everything works perfectly with DK2 once it arrives?

I hope I'm wording this well.

Thanks guys! I really, really hope I am able to get mine by or before Easter, as I have family coming from out of town that have yet to try my Rift. It would be amazing to be able to let them experience a much better image quality for their first try.

Post by **woodsmoke** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:40 pm

Hewster wrote:I've been doing some calculations

Nice write up Hewster, very interesting. You probably already saw the Vsauce video on eye resolution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I5Q3UXkGd0

Post by **Vturksoy** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:06 pm

Ryuuken24 wrote:People that bought the HD kit on Ebay are so damn quiet about it, makes me wonder who bought it. Wanna know how the demos look in HD, some people are so selfish.

rozsnyo is wright still they couldn't get them. But I set auction with 15 days option. So I'm still in safe zone and I'm cominicating with them. 3 of them is on the way. I'm shure they will share their toughts soon. Since than I stoped selling my upgrate. I've ready kit's but I don't find it etic while rozsnyo offers better connections and electronics for a lot cheaper. Only the ones who hasn't seen rozsnyo's kit will buy this is no good. However I didn't stoped working I'm comming with my new upgrate in a couple of weeks. I've the first prototype and stated to produce some parts already. I've many improvements now. I'm working to have cheaper electronics. Price is the hardest point. rozsnyo produces electronics and LCD below $100 I'm buying electronics and they cost me $360 last time. (including customs and shipping) But I'm about to produce them much more cheaper. Then nothing can stop my project.

some clue about new specs of my kit...

It has it's own carbon fiber case. It's small, DK2 like (a little smaller)

New controler board
(I've hired a team for a 72-73Hz or something higher than 60Hz tweaking. It's not a promise but they are working to see if my LCD or any other possible LCD works without errors or not. We will have a certain result in two weeks.)

New control box

It has USB connection for tracker.

There are some more things I'm planing also...

If everything goes ok I'll be ready in a couple of weeks and I'll post the first pictures soon.
All you have to do is to remove the head band of the oculus rift by removing four screews and install it to the carbon fiber case with same screws. Than take out the tracker from the rift and close it when LCD still connected. connect tracker with USB cable and stick it on the corbonfiber one. When you want to switch back change headstrap and tracker only. I'll also do tests with a outer connector. We will see how much it makes differance if tracker is on the outside. If it's ok then it takes 1min to switch back.

I'm also working on three more projects about VR. I hope to have working protoype in a month or so. You will hear of the project as I finished my protoype. and others will fallow soon...

Post by **ThePhilosopher** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:31 pm

Why hasn't an OLED screen been chosen? Is it because of the price?
(even if I understand the LCD screen has some advantages in terms of resolution)

Post by **Hewster** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:03 am

woodsmoke wrote:
Hewster wrote:I've been doing some calculations
Nice write up Hewster, very interesting. You probably already saw the Vsauce video on eye resolution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I5Q3UXkGd0

Hey Woodsmoke,

Thats a cool vid, pretty much confirms how I visualised (excuse the pun!) the way our eyes and brains work

I chose 1.5 inches for the sweet spot simply as a guestimate for the area we are most likely to move our eyes in before moving our head when looking at something.
I guess a proper study into this would be interesting for research (perhaps there has already been one).

Post by **cgp44** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:03 am

I haven't heard of oled screens available like you can get a box of 120 of the 5.9inchers that Daniel is
Putting in. The oled on the galaxy s4 is 5 inches thus needs a larger magnification. As well it's pentile
Sub pixel setup has only 2/3rds of pixels. Either you go for the story it is utilizing an efficient usage of red and blue
Sub pixels, or lik me presume it is due to current oled manufacture is not mature like LCD and so cannot put as many pixels per
Sq inch. Perhaps the requirement that they emit their own light means more stuff must go on the glass or not.

And oleds are at least three times more expensive. You can get a FHD 5.5 LCD for $35!!!!

Post by **ThePhilosopher** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:15 am

Okay I get it, thanks!
As for the price, you say it's more affordable than OLED screen. The RiftUp! costs $259 nevertheless.
How much in the price is for the 5.9" FHD LCD screen used here? Because if a 5.5" FHD costs $35, it seems to be a lot more expensive here!

Post by **cgp44** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:37 am

The rozsnyo cinematic boards use specialist chips. Hdmi, fpga, memory, mipi etc. I am guessing $50 or more just for the
Big chips. And the RiftUP! Is all of the guts of the rift expect for the injection molded plastic housing and plastic lenses, which oculus offered for $300. So rozsnyo are doing ok.

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:38 am

Hi,

Yep, pretty much like cgp44 said really...

Don't quote me on this, as I'm not sure exactly how Rozsnyo got on with hunting down the parts.
(I was helping out when I could with finding the panels / datasheets / connectors though, so I can tell you my experiences with it at least)...

Basically, the OLED panels are very hard to get hold of in smaller quantities atm (even for the quantities Rozsnyo was after for the RiftUP!)
You can imagine that not many of us have the cash to order 10,000 or more panels at once.

The very few manufacturers who said they could have supplied the panels in smaller numbers wanted to charge too much for them.

The situation will likely change eventually - like with a lot of components for phones / tablets, the price starts to reduce after they've been available for a while.
After that point, you tend to see more suppliers of the same part who are willing to offer them in smaller quantities / lower prices.

We were looking at some of the OLED panels for things like the Galaxy S4, but they were just hard to get hold of.
The 5" panel was also just a teensy bit too small to be a good fit for the Rift's FOV.

It's not just the panels though - the full datasheets are also needed to find the correct MIPI initialisation sequences, type of connector(s) / pinouts, power requirements, physical dimensions, backlight current / type etc. etc.

The 5.9" 1080p panel is the very best candidate that Rozsnyo could get hold of atm at a reasonable price that we had the datasheets for, and met the specs needed for the DK1 lenses / case.

Once a suitable OLED and affordable panel surfaces, I'm sure there will be an RiftUP! kit made available for that as well.

Actually, I think the price of the RiftUP! kits is very reasonable when you consider the amount of electronics and development that went into it.
Not to mention the physical modelling and testing to make sure it would be a complete replacement for the DK1 panel and controller PCB.

If you add up the rough costs of the PCBs, ICs, passive components, connectors, and engineering that went into it, this is still a good price.

OzOnE.

Post by **cgp44** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:11 am

Boy you can type fast ozOne!

Post by **OzOnE2k10** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:09 am

Well, I saw your replies as I hit the Reply button, but yeah, I tend to type quite a lot. lol

The guys on the retro computing Facebook groups think it's funny, 'cos I always go off-topic.
My nick-name is "Handbrake" on there.

OzOnE.

Post by **play2lose** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:53 am

So any update on production / shipping?

I know...I know...I'm antsy

Post by **cgp44** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:05 pm

have you heard about the controversy on indiegogo.
There seems to be a possible million dollar Russian scam about the gobe
calorie burning monitoring watch. Measuring blood without direct injection
seems to be highly suspect. The demonstrated prototype could just be a
accelerometer derived graph. Mind you it is a lot of mobile development for
a hoax. Hocsters are usually lazy.

I hope the funds to Rozsnyo get transferred forthwith. Indiegogo
may not be around for much longer. I wonder what happens to
a site like that where thousands of pledgers get had. Do their numbers
just get replaced by never-ending new clicks?

Post by **Kernel32** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:26 pm

First off, I would like to apologize for not being present on the forums as much as I would like to. Please bare with us, because we are working around the clock and have more great VR stuff coming.

The moment we hoped for and you made possible is here,

first batch of production boards arrived and we will start manual assembling RiftUP! Nows tomorrow, automated line production soon to follow.

We are also on schedule regarding our software. The Opener utility, designed for opening SDK based Unity/Unreal experiences to our hardware and to all the other developers and hobbyists out there, will be going public on time.

Everyone should be able to develop VR gear. Not only the big guys.

There is some very exciting stuff we are working on right now I can't disclose just yet. You won't regret the wait.

Thank you for being there for us,

Karel

PS: The first one to have the guts to share this @Fac.. I mean @Oculus forums gets a 50% discount on the Claire FullHD ... product.

PS2: Please post important questions and requests regarding RiftUP! to our campaign comments section to make sure we don't overlook it and reply in time. Thank you.

Post by **ido** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:08 pm

Great news!

Hope I get my hands on mine very soon!

Post by **cgp44** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:19 pm

I would love to see a box of 120 sharp 5.9ers

Post by **cybereality** » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:52 pm

Nice. That looks like a happy man.