Motion sickness bands & Rift

[laast]

Did someone try this with the Rift?

http://www.sea-band.com/why-seaband

Some interesting results?

[TheHolyChicken]

Did someone try this with the Rift?

http://www.sea-band.com/why-seaband

Some interesting results?

Careful you don't overdose by wearing more than one! I heard placebo can be dangerous in high concentrations.

EDIT: I guess I should also give a "straight" answer. There is no supporting evidence that these kind of devices actually work. They don't do anything other than provide a placebo effect for those that believe they will work. Unfortunately, by reading this post I've just dispelled any likelihood that you will now find the device effective. Sorry about that Sometimes I wish I didn't know science, because I miss out on all the potential placebo goodness from the hocus pocus stuff (placebo effect is a measurable and significant positive influence).

[zebrastealer]

Pure coincidence, I posted something along these exact same lines moments ago on the Oculus Subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments ... eriencing/) -I was at West Marine yesterday picking up some 2 cycle oil on sale and they had these bands for sale as well. When I saw them the first thing I thought of was Rift nausea. I was tempted to buy one myself since it was on sale (just in case I get sick), but since I've never suffered motion or sea sickness I'm going to wait.

By the way, if anyone is interested in buying these, West Marine does have them for $20 off regular price for the next few days: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... ZI7VCtATVk

[Neil]

There is anecdotal evidence that after people see the price tag, it actually causes nausea.

Regards,
Neil

[zebrastealer]

There is anecdotal evidence that after people see the price tag, it actually causes nausea.

Regards,
Neil

Yeah, but I guarantee, if they work, somebody puking in a bucket for 10 hours during an offshore fishing trip would GLADLY pay the $100. (Last year was out with a guy who did exactly that - when everyone is paying $100 in gas each, there is no going back to the dock cause your tummy hurts).

[laast]

Interesting scientific article about acupuncture point P6 here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3113464/

Conclusion: it "may" works...Or not.

[Ziggurat]

Did someone try this with the Rift?

http://www.sea-band.com/why-seaband

Some interesting results?

Careful you don't overdose by wearing more than one! I heard placebo can be dangerous in high concentrations.

EDIT: I guess I should also give a "straight" answer. There is no supporting evidence that these kind of devices actually work. They don't do anything other than provide a placebo effect for those that believe they will work. Unfortunately, by reading this post I've just dispelled any likelihood that you will now find the device effective. Sorry about that Sometimes I wish I didn't know science, because I miss out on all the potential placebo goodness from the hocus pocus stuff (placebo effect is a measurable and significant positive influence).

There are strong evidence that placebos work nearly as well when you know its a placebo.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21203519

There are studies administering four groups, Medicin, Placebo, Placebo without deception, and control group. And found that the group where they were told the it was a placebo worked nearly as well as the placebo group which worked better than the control group.

Why this lengthy post? To lay your continuos to rest

Interesting scientific article about acupuncture point P6 here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3113464/

Conclusion: it "may" works...Or not.

We included 40 trials involving 4858 participants; four trials reported adequate allocation concealment. Twelve trials did not report all outcomes.

[hal10000]

Interesting scientific article about acupuncture point P6 here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3113464/

Conclusion: it "may" works...Or not.

Real conclusion, Sea sickness bands and Acupuncture are nonsense. Take a ginger pill or dramamine for real help.

[2EyeGuy]

(placebo effect is a measurable and significant positive influence).

Is it really?
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NE ... 5243442106
I'm still skeptical about the healing powers of placebos for most things besides pain.
Does anyone know of any tests of placebo effect specifically for motion sickness?

Interesting scientific article about acupuncture point P6 here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3113464/

Conclusion: it "may" work...Or not.

There's nothing scientific about it. The Cochrane Library of Systematic Reviews are very sloppy about alternative medicine. They let people with huge undisclosed biases do the reviews (this one is done by the Chinese), don't address criticisms of their methodology, don't even address basic mathematical errors, haven't the slightest skepticism or awareness of the rampant fraud in the field, etc.

And of course statistics is maths, not science. Science is all about understand how things work. And there is not the slightest attempt at that in any studies of alternative medicine, because they already know that science says it can't possibly work due to the laws of physics and chemistry.

Chinese people are smarter than Westerners, but they are also extreme conformists. So Chinese people would never dare point out that the Yellow Emperor had no clothes. And when it was illegal to cut up dead bodies for medical research, Chinese people wouldn't break the law. And they didn't like new ideas when they had their classical ideas. So Chinese knowledge of medicine or basic anatomy was laughably bad when Westerners first encountered it. And now, rather than being thrown out like it should have been when real medicine became known, it's taken on the role of superstition for gullible idiots.

There is absolutely no such thing as meridians, qi (chi), acupuncture points, etc. except as misunderstandings of blood vessels.

[hal10000]

There is a great episode of mythbusters where they test different nausea prevention methods and over the counter and ginger capsules are the only things that worked. As far as the placebo effect goes there is a podcast called the Quack Cast and he goes into great depth on the placebo effect and how little of an effect it actually has. Pretty much it only helps with perceived levels of pain but it's debatable if they are actually feeling any less pain.

http://www.quackcast.com/epodcasts/file ... ad6-7.html

[laast]

Chinese people are smarter than Westerners, but they are also extreme conformists. So Chinese people would never dare point out that the Yellow Emperor had no clothes. And when it was illegal to cut up dead bodies for medical research, Chinese people wouldn't break the law. And they didn't like new ideas when they had their classical ideas. So Chinese knowledge of medicine or basic anatomy was laughably bad when Westerners first encountered it. And now, rather than being thrown out like it should have been when real medicine became known, it's taken on the role of superstition for gullible idiots.

There is absolutely no such thing as meridians, qi (chi), acupuncture points, etc. except as misunderstandings of blood vessels.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry when I read such foolishness. A narrow-minded should never try to teach lessons.

Please.

[cybereality]

I tried the Sea-Bands before a long 2+ hour session on TF2 and I think they work. You can buy them for less than $10 ( http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Band-Adult-Wr ... B001F731N0 ). Granted, they still might be placebo, but that doesn't mean they don't work. Previously I had only clocked around 30 minutes in TF2 before feeling a little off balance. Lately, I've been feeling fine with the Rift, I guess I have gotten used to it. I don't know. But I think the bands might help.

Also: please stay on topic. Scientific rants and borderline racist generalizations have no place on this forum.

[LukePoga]

Chinese people are smarter than Westerners, but they are also extreme conformists. So Chinese people would never dare point out that the Yellow Emperor had no clothes. And when it was illegal to cut up dead bodies for medical research, Chinese people wouldn't break the law. And they didn't like new ideas when they had their classical ideas. So Chinese knowledge of medicine or basic anatomy was laughably bad when Westerners first encountered it. And now, rather than being thrown out like it should have been when real medicine became known, it's taken on the role of superstition for gullible idiots.

There is absolutely no such thing as meridians, qi (chi), acupuncture points, etc. except as misunderstandings of blood vessels.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry when I read such foolishness. A narrow-minded should never try to teach lessons.

Please.

you should do both. one day your superstition will harm someone. science is a much better place to base your opinions.

[mattyeatsmatts]

superstition and religion are both crazy hocus pocus talk

[TheHolyChicken]

Also: please stay on topic. Scientific rants and borderline racist generalizations have no place on this forum.

Avoiding nausea is something that is extremely relevant to this forum, so it is not surprising that this topic popped up at some point. This forum isn't a simple chatroom (or didn't used to be, anyway ) - it addresses complicated technical issues and problems; and for discussions to go anywhere, and progress to be made, it is important that people understand scientific method.

Imagine if someone was proposing the Rift use their new tracking system that just "SOMEHOW tracks your body very accurately". Would you buy into that? Would you hire them to do the Rift's tracking system? Of course not! You would want to see facts, you would want to know exactly how it works, you would want to see results. Scientific method is important.

Avoiding nausea is relevant to this forum, and so motion sickness bands relevant to this forum. But they are pseudoscience. Attempting not to discuss the matter of pseudo-science when dealing directly with something that IS pseudo-science would be skirting around the issue at hand. I would never drag a subject offtopic to "rant" about science/religion or pseudoscience, but I will gladly confront the issue at every chance I get when it is in a relevant setting.

[laast]

I tried the Sea-Bands before a long 2+ hour session on TF2 and I think they work. You can buy them for less than $10 ( http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Band-Adult-Wr ... B001F731N0 ). Granted, they still might be placebo, but that doesn't mean they don't work. Previously I had only clocked around 30 minutes in TF2 before feeling a little off balance. Lately, I've been feeling fine with the Rift, I guess I have gotten used to it. I don't know. But I think the bands might help.

Also: please stay on topic. Scientific rants and borderline racist generalizations have no place on this forum.

Thx for answering the initial question. Interesting testimony from Cyber himself!

you should do both. one day your superstition will harm someone. science is a much better place to base your opinions.

I don't know why you call me superstitious. Unless Science and Curiosity are not compatible? I thought Curiosity and an opened mind were the essence of every scientific approaches? Maybe I was wrong

Prejudices are as dangerous and useless as superstition.

Avoiding nausea is relevant to this forum, and so motion sickness bands relevant to this forum. But they are pseudoscience. Attempting not to discuss the matter of pseudo-science when dealing directly with something that IS pseudo-science would be skirting around the issue at hand. I would never drag a subject offtopic to "rant" about science/religion or pseudoscience, but I will gladly confront the issue at every chance I get when it is in a relevant setting.

You call it "pseudo-science" because you have a western person point of view / approach / culture. Keep in mind that the other half of humanity can call it "Science". And, as western persons, we can't ignore and belittle such as millennia practices (like acupuncture) just because we don't understand it (yet).

Peace.

[braddas]

I used to wear a band like that when I was younger as I used to get ridiculously ill when flying. It did seem to work, though I'll admit it was probably just a placebo effect.

[TheHolyChicken]

You call it "pseudo-science" because you have a western person point of view / approach / culture. Keep in mind that the other half of humanity can call it "Science". And, as western persons, we can't ignore and belittle such as millennia practices (like acupuncture) just because we don't understand it.

No, I call it pseudo-science because it's not scientific (but pretends to be). Science isn't culture-dependent, or a "point of view"; it is universal. It's the only logical approach to problem solving - a process of investigation, demanding integrity of methodology, that produces reliable and "true" answers. You conduct an experiment, observe the results, and draw conclusions from the data. It is also peer reviewed - it is mandatory that others critique your work in an attempt to ensure it has no errors.

Believe me - alternative medicines and healing methods such as acupuncture and herbal medicines haven't been ignored. Quite the opposite. To quote the wonderful Dara O'Briain: (full video here)

'Oh, herbal medicine's been around for thousands of years!'
Indeed it has, and then we tested it all, and the stuff that worked became 'medicine', and the rest of it is just a nice bowl of soup and some potpourri

I confront the issue, and am writing this now, because I believe pseudo-scientific medicines are dangerous. Not because the medicines themselves may cause harm, but because many of them simply do not work. Proponents of alternative medicine encourage distrust of proper scientific medicine, resulting in real people out there with very real ailments choosing "alternative" medicine over actual medicine, and needlessly suffering for it! I feel it is a moral duty of those who understand this to confront the issue, instead of doing the "polite" thing of just leaving it be.

[Parallaxis]

Also: please stay on topic. Scientific rants and borderline racist generalizations have no place on this forum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whixWpH9MVQ

And let's all remember dumb and narrow minded people exist in every culture in huge numbers. Even among MTBS3D members.

[Pokey]

Even those bands did work, couldn't you just make one yourself?

It's a wristband with protrusions on it

why would you pay for that

[geekmaster]

Even those bands did work, couldn't you just make one yourself?

It's a wristband with protrusions on it

why would you pay for that

Only the ones you pay lots of money for contain the right mix of magic spells, holy blessings, pixie dust, snake oil and magic smoke. A DIY version would be no better than the sum of its parts.

And we all know that our expensive tech toys don't work anymore if we accidentally let the magic smoke escape from them. How can all those other "active ingredients" be any different?



"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8jWImSZ0jw

There are things that we do not understand, and there are things that we will not understand. All that matters is what works well enough for us now. If motion sickness bands work for you personally, then by all means enjoy their personally perceived benefits, regardless of whether science can or will explain it to you. Let your own experience be your guide. When it comes to the human mind and body, what we believe can shape our perception and health in major ways, and if a placebo can help guide our beliefs in beneficial ways, then they are a welcome tool. Do not worry about what others think or care. Just do whatever you believe is the right thing to do now, with whatever tools you have to use (real or virtual).

[MrGreen]

I have a bridge in Brooklyn...

[geekmaster]

I have a bridge in Brooklyn...

May I see the deed to your bridge?

Although I lean heavily toward the hard sciences, I study all things, including mysticism and the occult. You will not know where to find the center until you dangle your legs over all the edges. And science has many undiscovered surprises hiding for us in unexpected places. If nothing else, pseudo-science can give us creative new ways to exercise our imaginations. There are things we take for granted now that were believed to be impossible "quackery" in the past. That will be repeated in the future. We must keep our minds open to all possibilities, while keeping our feet grounded in hard scientific fact. Oh, and that little "placebo effect" that really does work for some people, and that's a fact. After recovering through sheer will-power from what was considered by professionals to be a permanent disabling injury, I know personally what the mind can accomplish. If placebos assist the power of self-will, so be it. IMHO, of course.

Personally, I often suffer from dizziness and motion sickess (inner ear problem) and I prefer an OTC med called "Meclizine". I would not bother with such "motion sickeness bands" myself, but I do not wish to dissuade others from such potential personal remedies, but I would recommend trying an inexpensive or DIY version first if that sort of thing interests you.

I mean, really now, how can you outright disclaim a personal endorsement from cybereality, which must be worth something around here?

Now, about that bridge, is it for sale?

[MrGreen]

I'm all for keeping an open mind, curiosity and all that virtuous stuff Geek but at the same time I have a really hard time with a society where charlatans can make a fortune selling snake oil in plain sight because people just love to believe. Natural selection I guess.

Anyway, that bridge isn't for sale anymore but did I tell you about my magic thumb?

[mr.uu]

Although I lean heavily toward the hard sciences, I study all things, including mysticism and the occult. You will not know where to find the center until you dangle your legs over all the edges. And science has many undiscovered surprises hiding for us in unexpected places. If nothing else, pseudo-science can give us creative new ways to exercise our imaginations. There are things we take for granted now that were believed to be impossible "quackery" in the past. That will be repeated in the future. We must keep our minds open to all possibilities, while keeping our feet grounded in hard scientific fact. Oh, and that little "placebo effect" that really does work for some people, and that's a fact. After recovering through sheer will-power from what was considered by professionals to be a permanent disabling injury, I know personally what the mind can accomplish. If placebos assist the power of self-will, so be it. IMHO, of course.

Thank you for these wise words.
Despite the fact that i am a little younger as you are (i'm 40) i did also already dig into many areas of life.
My summary: I know, that i don't know.

And this accounts for almost all areas of life and way to many of our nowadays so arrogantly presented scientific facts!
This is just so logical, because we do not yet understand the foundation of our world, so we base almost all of our knowledge on assumtions, just to be reminded later, that they are not always valid. Just take Newtons or Einsteins Laws. There are many examples where these do not seem to be correct, but still they are tought in school, because they do fit for most of our normal-life situations.

So i go always with this, if i am ask about my opinion regarding a specific topic (like these complicated, scientific ones):
To my understanding SO FAR, i do have the following opinion: blah, blah
Because i will be profen wrong. It is just a matter of days, months or even years...

Sorry for beeing slightly offtopic, but just had to throw my 2c in...

[geekmaster]

... did I tell you about my magic thumb?

Gee... I wonder what your "magic thumb" smells like...

[MrGreen]

... did I tell you about my magic thumb?

Gee... I wonder what your "magic thumb" smells like...

Profit!

It rhymes anyway...

[2EyeGuy]

It looks like placebos may help with motion sickness. Although I'd prefer some more concrete and less anecdotal data. For example, having an external observer who doesn't know whether a person has been given a placebo or nothing, judging some objective measure of how well a person can perform a task without symptoms of motion sickness, with a randomized selection of people assigned to each group.

But if we're going to use placebos, we should be using cheap or free placebos, rather than giving money to unscrupulous con-artists. I think I'll add a special console variable to the next version of Doom 3 BFG that activates a special "motion sickness prevention mode". That should save people some money on placebos.

I don't know why you call me superstitious.

liar

Unless Science and Curiosity are not compatible?

Science is all about real curiosity. But the very mild curiosity you are thinking of, where a person feels a vague need for an answer but can't be bothered to actually go out and check, so they just make stuff up, is not science.

I thought Curiosity and an opened mind were the essence of every scientific approaches? Maybe I was wrong

Yes, you were wrong (it happens to all of us from time to time). Yes, curiosity is the essence of every scientific approach, but open-mindedness is the opposite of science. Science is all about limiting your mind to what experiments show about how things work, and about not accepting things unless they have been thoroughly tested and peer reviewed. Science is narrow-mindedly interested in the truth, rather than open to our (comparatively) limitless dreams, wishes, and imagination.

Prejudices are as dangerous and useless as superstition.

Actually, prejudices are an absolutely vital survival mechanism that our brains evolved. All creatures need to be able to make constant split-second judgements about what is dangerous and what isn't, long before they have the full information needed to make an informed evaluation. Those creatures that didn't prejudge died before they could reproduce. So we inherited an amazing ability to subconsciously prejudge things quickly and reasonably accurately using some very complex pattern recognition. All studies of prejudice show it to be surprisingly accurate, and very resistant to propaganda.

Superstition is probably partly caused by that prejudice system, when we subconsciously recognize patterns that aren't really there but were just a random fluke. But I think there's more to it than that, or else the superstition would naturally start to disappear when conflicting evidence was observed.

You call it "pseudo-science" because you have a western person point of view / approach / culture.

That's a very racist thing for you to say. Which doesn't necessarily mean it's untrue, although you are overstating it. There are naturally occuring scientists in other cultures not influenced by the west. The West aren't the only ones to ever think of rigorous scientific experimentation and rational thought, even if they are it's primary supporters and contributors.

Keep in mind that the other half of humanity can call it "Science".

Westerners are a lot less than half the world. And what they call it is irrelevant. There are logical, reliable ways of discovering the truth, and the proponents of alternative medicine didn't use them, they just made stuff up in order to feel good.

And, as western persons, we can't ignore and belittle such as millennia practices (like acupuncture) just because we don't understand it (yet).

But we DO understand it. We know how the body works, because we've studied it. And it has nothing to do with Chi or Meridians. We also understand how belief in acupuncture came about, and it wasn't through science. So ignoring or belittling acupuncture is entirely appropriate. Obviously acupuncture is not as crazy or implausible as other forms of alternative medicine like homeopathy or reiki, but it's still more than crazy enough.

Peace.

Now, that, I can agree with.

My summary: I know, that i don't know.

No, I really don't think you do, or you would be reading this topic but not posting.

And this accounts for almost all areas of life and way to many of our nowadays so arrogantly presented scientific facts!
This is just so logical, because we do not yet understand the foundation of our world, so we base almost all of our knowledge on assumtions, just to be reminded later, that they are not always valid.

That's not true. You are misunderstanding how science works. We do understand the foundation of our world very well indeed. Science isn't just guesses and assumptions. It's careful thought and extremely thorough testing, followed by actual usage of our discoveries in our technology. Because we build technology based on our science, for billions of people, most scientific theories have been tested literally trillions of times! So we know lots of things, and we know that we know them. And the things that we don't know, we know that we don't know, and we know a lot of limits on what the unknown things could be.

[Mystify]

If alternatives to traditional methods work, then that can be measured. Science would be able to run experiments, and objectively show that it works, even if there is no proposed mechanism for it. However, when you get down to the actual studies and look at the data, it does not support it. The proper scientific response to "If you do X, it has Y result" is not "I guess that could be the case." It is not "That does not match my expectations, so it must be wrong", either. The proper response is "Ok, lets test that", or "Lets look what happened when other people tested it". The existing understanding of the world can be used to explain why it did or did not work. "There is no such thing as meridians" is a perfectly valid scientific explanation of why acupuncture does not work. It would not be a reason to discount it without experimentation, because even if meridians are wrong, acupuncture may still work, but for different reasons than are traditionally put forth. But it doesn't, the experiements don't validate it. You only have the placebo effect, which is more a statement about human perception and psychology than anything else.

[laast]

Blablabla

Thx for this wonderful and rigorous life & science lesson! You are the wise man and I'm the ignorant...

"A fool may well remain for years in contact with science, he does not know the taste of more science than a spoon dipped in the sauce does not know the taste of the sauce. "
Bouddha


(Can we close this topic now?)

[MrGreen]

Blablabla

Thx for this wonderful and rigorous life & science lesson! You are the wise man and I'm the ignorant...

"A fool may well remain for years in contact with science, he does not know the taste of more science than a spoon dipped in the sauce does not know the taste of the sauce. "
Bouddha


(Can we close this topic now?)

The blue pill and its opposite, the red pill, are pop culture symbols representing the choice between the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue) and embracing the sometimes painful truth of reality (red).

Wrong color.

[Parallaxis]

Let's all come down now.

The important thing is; someone paid $10 for a rubberband. Now that's funny.

[hal10000]

I would like to say thanks to theholychicken and 2eyeguy for bringing some rational thought to this. It takes a lot more work to be informed than to just distrust science based on hunches, antiquity of ideas, or because half the world buys it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11275030
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16389016

[geekmaster]

Let's all come down now.

The important thing is; someone paid $10 for a rubberband. Now that's funny.

I would like to say thanks to theholychicken and 2eyeguy for bringing some rational thought to this. It takes a lot more work to be informed than to just distrust science based on hunches, antiquity of ideas, or because half the world buys it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11275030
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16389016

If that rubber band is tight enough, it might distract your attention away from any momentary queasy sensations. And there are much worse things that money could have been spent on. It is not like they were going to give you that money anyway, so what is your beef about WHAT people choose to buy their THEIR money? If it makes them feel good without damaging anything but their bank balance, I am all for it...

I love science, but even science has its limits, especially when it comes between a person and his happiness. Harmless personal foibles are a victimless crime in most cases, so let the buyer beware. It is not your job to protect them. If charlatans profit from that, why should that be your concern as long as their "victims" are satisfied with their purchases?

Is this only an American point of view I have here? What happened to personal choice and personal freedom?

People are free to believe what they choose, even if it does not coincide with your personal beliefs (regardless of how much evidence you can find to support your beliefs).

IMHO. Sorry if my "libertarian" point of view affends any of you, but my PoV is my personal choice too...

This thread was created only to add another possible remedy (for some people). I value it if only for that. No need here to burn other people's churches and all that...

Oh, and I ate so much pickled ginger root last night that it gave me severe indigestion. I did not notice any reduction in my chronic dizziness. Perhaps pickling renders it ineffective? I also eat freshly shaved raw ginger root mixed into my salads on an almost daily basis, so perhaps that interfered with my inefficative evaluation.

[mr.uu]

You are misunderstanding how science works.

No, i know how science works.
I did say that we do think that our science (practical science) is based on facts. Unfortunately this is a must for science, because unless it can not state that "this is scientific proofen" or "based on scientific facts" lol
But the so important foundation (theoretical science should enlighten us) is yet to be understood.

But, hey:

We do understand the foundation of our world very well indeed.

One of the brightest brains of science do state that "If someone states that he does understand quantuum physics clearly shows that he does not have a clue what he is talking about!". Yet you understand it very well?
I wait for your founded explanation (in a nutshell?)

So we know lots of things, and we know that we know them. And the things that we don't know, we know that we don't know, and we know a lot of limits on what the unknown things could be.

Lot of knows, which shows how little you know!
How can you know the things you don´t know?
And either what they could be (assumption) or you know (truth) the unknown. But if you know, then they are not unknown anymore.

You are the best example of why mankind is to stupid to see the bigger picture.
We do poison our planet, our food chain, etc. and could destroy our earth in minutes, all possible because of dogmatic belief in science.
Oh, sorry, science can do good also. At least we can repair (kind of) the cancer which spreads because of us scientificly proofen poisoning our world- for example.

OR we have a different definition of foundation of science???

EDIT: I need my Rift for escaping this world NOW and FOREVER (or as long as i can pay my electricity-bill)
EDIT#2&3: deleted unnecessary chatter, etc.

[MrGreen]

Do you even have a point or are you merely trying to discredit science to justify your beliefs?

[Mystify]

You are misunderstanding how science works.

No, i know how science works. I did say that we do think that our science is based on facts (practical science). Unfortunately this is a must for science, because unless it can not state that it is "scientific proof" lol
And this foundation (theoretical science) is yet to be understood.
So you do mix up theoretical with applied science.

But, hey:

We do understand the foundation of our world very well indeed.

WOW, i am so proud to meet you! on of the brightest brains of science do state that "If someone states that he does understand quantuum physics clearly shows that he does not have a clue what he is talking about!". Yet you know it very well? String theory? Big Bang Nonsense? Multiple Universe (=Bull, because per definition Universe means "All that is" already)?
I love to get an answer of why there is 95% of the known mass in the Universe is Antimatter for example. Or why Einsteins gravitational influence on mass formula (for a lightray for example) is only correct at radius distance of the massive object and unfortunately totally uncorrect at r*2 or r*3?
I wait for your founded explanation (in a nutshell?)

So we know lots of things, and we know that we know them. And the things that we don't know, we know that we don't know, and we know a lot of limits on what the unknown things could be.

Lot of knows, which shows how little you know!
How can you know the things you don´t know?
And either they could be (assumption) or you know (truth) the unknown. But if you know, then they are not unknown anymore.

You are the best example of why mankind is to stupid to see the bigger picture.
We do poison our planet, our food chain, etc. and could destroy our earth in minutes, all possible because of dogmatic belief in science.
Oh, sorry, science can do good also. At least we can repair (kind of) the cancer which spreads because of us scientific poisoning our world- for example.

EDIT: I need my Rift for escaping this world NOW and FOREVER (or as long as i can pay my electricity-bill)

Oh, where to even start.
First, that quip about quantum mechanics refers to an intuitive understanding of it. It is highly counter intuitive because it does not follow the rules we are used to. This does not mean we are completely clueless about it.It follows clear rules and patterns and we can do a ton of stuff with it.
There are also many layers of understanding. Newtonian mechanics are not wrong, just only applicable to a certain domain. Quantum mechanics and relativity are likewise not wrong, even though they are limited in their domains of applicability. We know there is more to learn, a deeper, more encompassing theory, however that theory will be consistent with quantum mechanics, relativity, and Newtonian mechanics, as those would all be specific cases of the larger theory. It would be a huge stretch to think that this underlying theory would reveal some aspect of the normal world we deal which, which is solidly in the domain of all 3 theories, in a such a way to allow these alternative methods to work and defy detection by normal means. We are not looking at "Well, anything at all could go here", but "Well, we need something that looks kinda like this"

Are you really dismissing multiple universe theories based on a semantic quibble? Oh no, they used a word in a way which is arguably incorrect, it must be nonsense. Its more like "hey, all of this stuff that we see reach and infer about seems to be everything. Lets call it the universe" "Oh wait, there may be multiples of those. I guess universe was poorly named" Atom meant "unsplittable", are you going to reject all of modern physics because it says we can split an atom? There have been plenty of progress in understanding the antimatter/matter division too(which is in favor of matter, not antimatter). I don't remember the details offhand, but it has to do with asymmetries in decay patterns.
And by what criteria do you call the big bang nonsense?

Yes, we don't have 100% of things discovered and understood. but we have a pretty good idea of what the gaps are and what the nature of what will fill them would need to be, and the types of things it can and cannot influence. Our understanding of the basis of the universe is not perfect, but it is really, really good. I mean, we are able to build a giant machine to smash subatomic particles together, and detect a minor statistical energy fluctuation over the course of months of experiments exactly where we predicted it would be.

blaming science for our ecological damage is also laughable. Most of that is from industry, which is not the same thing as science. Science is what lets us measure the impact and say "hey, this is causing problems, we should stop doing this." Politics is why we haven't stopped. Anti-scientific sentiments has done more harm than scientific ones. And really, its not like everything was honky dory before science. It was pretty awful.

[mr.uu]

Do you even have a point or are you merely trying to discredit science to justify your beliefs?

English is not my mother tongue! So if i did not made my point clear already, it is obviously my fault.
No, i do not want to discredit practical science. Hey, it is practical!

First, that quip about quantum mechanics refers to an intuitive understanding of it. It is highly counter intuitive because it does not follow the rules we are used to. This does not mean we are completely clueless about it.It follows clear rules and patterns and we can do a ton of stuff with it.
There are also many layers of understanding. Newtonian mechanics are not wrong, just only applicable to a certain domain. Quantum mechanics and relativity are likewise not wrong, even though they are limited in their domains of applicability. We know there is more to learn, a deeper, more encompassing theory, however that theory will be consistent with quantum mechanics, relativity, and Newtonian mechanics, as those would all be specific cases of the larger theory. It would be a huge stretch to think that this underlying theory would reveal some aspect of the normal world we deal which, which is solidly in the domain of all 3 theories, in a such a way to allow these alternative methods to work and defy detection by normal means. We are not looking at "Well, anything at all could go here", but "Well, we need something that looks kinda like this"

You were faster in replying than me in editing. Oki, i opened "Pandoras Box", so i have to deal with it:
Agree 95%. The "follows clear Rules" part is misleading. Just we can do "a ton of stuff with it" does not necessarily mean that we fully understand it. We do at least know what to do with it.

Are you really dismissing multiple universe theories based on a semantic quibble? Oh no, they used a word in a way which is arguably incorrect, it must be nonsense. Its more like "hey, all of this stuff that we see reach and infer about seems to be everything. Lets call it the universe" "Oh wait, there may be multiples of those. I guess universe was poorly named" Atom meant "unsplittable", are you going to reject all of modern physics because it says we can split an atom?

The reason why i did removed my wrong expressed statement.
Should have been looked like this: "Multiple Galaxies theory is by definition Bull"
Does not mean that i personally think that it is a plausible theory. My opinion.

There have been plenty of progress in understanding the antimatter/matter division too(which is in favor of matter, not antimatter). I don't remember the details offhand, but it has to do with asymmetries in decay patterns.

There are many different theories, and most of them change weekly. Is this a sign of knowledge?

And by what criteria do you call the big bang nonsense?

My personal opinion. Prove me wrong.
Again, there are myriads of theories. Others do simply seem more logical to me than this out of nothing is somehing bull.

Yes, we don't have 100% of things discovered and understood. but we have a pretty good idea of what the gaps are and what the nature of what will fill them would need to be, and the types of things it can and cannot influence. Our understanding of the basis of the universe is not perfect, but it is really, really good. I mean, we are able to build a giant machine to smash subatomic particles together, and detect a minor statistical energy fluctuation over the course of months of experiments exactly where we predicted it would be.

It is always funny to see how the Zeitgeist (sorry, do not have proper translation) mislead people in thinking they are oh so full of knowledge- on the cutting edge. Please tell me that there are no signs of far more advanced, extinguished civilizations as we currently are on this planet! Oh, another Box opened...

blaming science for our ecological damage is also laughable. Most of that is from industry, which is not the same thing as science. Science is what lets us measure the impact and say "hey, this is causing problems, we should stop doing this." Politics is why we haven't stopped. Anti-scientific sentiments has done more harm than scientific ones. And really, its not like everything was honky dory before science. It was pretty awful.

Industrys foundation is science, but was not ment to sound as negative as it did.
No, not all science is bad, and yes, there were times where we did not even have canalisation (i mean, OUR zivilisation )

BTW, it is not politics as driving force behind most of the bad things happening in the world. Politics is just the vehicle.
Our current money system is the reason. Ui, another Box! The biggest one!


Do you think i am insane? After all, we are all crazy for the OR googles. Is that sane?

And, to stay on topic: I will try that thing that kills my Rift-nausea. Or sugar pills (placebo). Or whatever. Hope it helps...

EDIT: typos

[LukePoga]

Say you read somewhere that there is a teapot floating around jupiter. Do you assume that it is true, or do you wait for scientific evidence before believing it? Most people would not wait for scientific evidence. If they trust the person that tells them its true, then they will believe it.

If you pastor or your parents tell you something, you believe it.

If your friend tells you a product is good, you believe it.

Look at global warming. 99% of climate scientists say global warming is happening and is man-caused. Yet because someone's politician or pastor has told them its not man-made, they listen to that person instead.

[mr.uu]

Say you read somewhere that there is a teapot floating around jupiter. Do you assume that it is true, or do you wait for scientific evidence before believing it? Most people would not wait for scientific evidence. If they trust the person that tells them its true, then they will believe it.

Sounds more like common sense to me.

If you pastor or your parents tell you something, you believe it.

Depends solely on your age

If your friend tells you a product is good, you believe it.

Depends also solely on your age!

Look at global warming. 99% of climate scientists say global warming is happening and is man-caused. Yet because someone's politician or pastor has told them its not man-made, they listen to that person instead.

WOW, another Box opened.
The 99% is not true. It is more like 50%. (Mass)Media implies its 99%. See, do not only watch the news on the telly, pal!
Read many pro and contra arguments on that topic and then express a founded opinion.