GDC 2013 - News and impressions

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trgTyson
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by trgTyson »

Namielus wrote:I could only speak for myself obviously, but I would easily pay 600 dollars for a 6.1" 2560x1600 OLED screen in a deluxe edition consumer Rift.
I second this; would actually justify my horrible spending habit on videocards! :geek:
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Ericshelpdesk »

TheHolyChicken wrote: The Verge's article notes that there was drift, and in the comments it is written that "Oculus suggested this is a problem for developers to solve". I took this as meaning "Oculus suggested this was a bug for the developers of Hawken to fix". To believe anything else is to disregard all information regarding the sensors we have, and all previous demos of the Rift where there has not been a single report of drift. I can only assume something is up with Hawken's implementation.
vr_moveaim_mode: options for controlling movement and aim. Modes 0 through 4 are all interesting to try. 5 and above are probably not.
0: aiming and steering with your face, the mouse just rotates your "hips". This is a good mode for use with a control pad.
1: aiming with your face, steering only with the mouse. This mode may be buggy and "drift" after a while.


That's 2 implementations that show drift over time, and valve has had the SDK the longest.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by TheHolyChicken »

Ericshelpdesk wrote:
TheHolyChicken wrote: The Verge's article notes that there was drift, and in the comments it is written that "Oculus suggested this is a problem for developers to solve". I took this as meaning "Oculus suggested this was a bug for the developers of Hawken to fix". To believe anything else is to disregard all information regarding the sensors we have, and all previous demos of the Rift where there has not been a single report of drift. I can only assume something is up with Hawken's implementation.
vr_moveaim_mode: options for controlling movement and aim. Modes 0 through 4 are all interesting to try. 5 and above are probably not.
0: aiming and steering with your face, the mouse just rotates your "hips". This is a good mode for use with a control pad.
1: aiming with your face, steering only with the mouse. This mode may be buggy and "drift" after a while.


That's 2 implementations that show drift over time, and valve has had the SDK the longest.
Yet their other implementations (0, 2, 3, 4) make no mention of drift whatsoever. If the Rift suffered from drift, surely ALL the control schemes would drift - why highlight only scheme #1?
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by OO »

TheHolyChicken wrote: If the Rift suffered from drift, surely ALL the control schemes would drift - why highlight only scheme #1?
Drift would be masked by control schemes that also allow the mouse/analog-stick to override the viewpoint. This is the case for FPS games like Doom, and you would never notice that the drift had occurred. For cockpit games like Hawken, I don't believe the mouse/stick overrides your view, and drift would be very apparent.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by NikoKun »

dbuckvs wrote:
NikoKun wrote:
NiceGuyAndersson wrote:Will it be possible to watch the Oculus panels online somewhere?
I'm also curious about this..
Not the GDC panels no, they stream them online after the show as part of the GDC Vault, but it's a pay service at ~500/person. not a bad gig if you're a real dev house, but a bit out of the range of the normal human
That's really odd.. And angeringly disappointing.
I could have sworn I've watched GDC panels online for free (youtube) in previous years..
I'm starting to hate all these conferences for being so exclusive, and making it impossible for us to see the discussions. No one should have to pay for such a thing!

I really really hope SOMEONE puts these panels up online to see. If not legitimately, then to spite the asshats who felt it necessary to charge $500 to see it.
I'm very interested in what Oculus and Valve have to say about VR at this conference, been waiting for this for a month or so, and I assumed both valve and oculus wanted people to see it too.

At the VERY LEAST, I hope the gaming media post write-up articles about the panels.. :/
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Pingles »

Speaking of which:

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/3/ ... ame-makers

The history of GDC. Pretty fascinating.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by 2EyeGuy »

brantlew wrote:Just a short comment to say that sensor fusion is incorporated into the SDK and is not something that we are asking developers to solve.
Have you solved it, or does it drift? And if it drifts, why? I thought the magnetometer would prevent drift.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by nanicoar »

DaEmpty wrote: Drifting head tracking is the worst thing that could happen. :|
I think we cannot fix this in software.

Maybe it's a good idea to order a track ir and use the rift tracker only as fallback.
No, fixing it is exactly what you can do in software. This drift happens so suddenly that you can detect it as a motion of unnatural speed and simply drop it. An open-source high-end software library made for industrial robots weighing several tonnes, but utilizing the exact same math is accessible right here: http://www.orocos.org/bfl

So chill. Everything is under control. Just ignore the bugs for now. 8-)
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by zalo »

That's weird, I was always under the impression that "drift" is the accumulation of subtle errors over time, making it notoriously difficult to correct in software. Often times, developers find the magnetometer data to be too noisy to be of any use at all, so it might not play such a big role in the sensor fusion algorithm.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by crespo80 »

The integrated magnetometer will not be enough to address the drift problems, because its data are a lot less reliable then the gyro and accelerometer data, they can't fuse them with the others in the same way, they are less valuable.
It took years of development and probably millions of dollars of investments to Sony to engineer a positional tracking solution, and they came out with a webcam and a light ball over a stick... and the user has to always face the camera, otherwise the system won't work.
Razer solved the facing problem with a magnetic system, but it suffers from interference and you have to stay within 3 feet from the base to have the maximum precision, plus it's wired.
I think Oculus will have a very hard time trying to figure the problem out, let alone the input device problem, the haptic feedback, the motion sickness: today we see the resolution as the main problem, when in reality that is the easiest one to solve!
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by nanicoar »

There's tons of questions and good answers for this on Stackoverflow. Yes, it is a hard problem, but it has been solved in multiple, excellent ways. The news here really is that the Hawken team didn't have a sensors guy. The sensors guy from Oculus probably already told them how to fix it.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by unsilentwill »

So the show floor is finally open, before was just people bothering Oculus for soundbites.
kertgartner wrote:The lineup for the oculus rift is already 50 deep. But I'm number 25 :) they're demoing Hawken. So pumped :)
Good luck guys! Wow brantlew, that's an amazing booth.

Edit: The first of several "vines":
https://vine.co/v/bjiDgKLMPXD
Last edited by unsilentwill on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by brantlew »

Just want to point out the fantastic job that Jo did with our booth.

Image

Image

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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by dbuckvs »

NikoKun wrote: I could have sworn I've watched GDC panels online for free (youtube) in previous years..
I'm starting to hate all these conferences for being so exclusive, and making it impossible for us to see the discussions. No one should have to pay for such a thing!

I really really hope SOMEONE puts these panels up online to see. If not legitimately, then to spite the asshats who felt it necessary to charge $500 to see it.
I'm very interested in what Oculus and Valve have to say about VR at this conference, been waiting for this for a month or so, and I assumed both valve and oculus wanted people to see it too.

At the VERY LEAST, I hope the gaming media post write-up articles about the panels.. :/

Hate to break it to you, but conferences are a business also, when you are charging upwards of $1400 for tickets and having no problems selling out, you have a product that people are interested in. giving it away for free isn't the best idea for being able to keep doing it in the future.

but that's off topic.. sorry :)
got a rift and a hydra? check out a thing it's a hot mess of control schemes and ideas, but it's fun.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by TheHolyChicken »

New article: http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/gdc ... iever-now/
EDIT: booth looks fantastic, brantlew!
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by NegativeCamber »

[quote="brantlew"]Just want to point out the fantastic job that Jo did with our booth.

.........


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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Bishop51 »

brantlew wrote:Just want to point out the fantastic job that Jo did with our booth.

Image

Image

Image
Joe is a madman! You guys wear a lot of hats over there at Oculus ;) The booth looks great! I would especially appreciate the little room to hide away after your 1000'th demo and repeated dialog. Is there a bed back there? Put Palmer in it stat!
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Namielus »

Who wants to bet theres a cookie stash in that room?
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by lovelyhead »

TheHolyChicken wrote:New article: http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/gdc ... iever-now/
EDIT: booth looks fantastic, brantlew!
Hmm. Another article that mentions blurryness.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Bishop51 »

lovelyhead wrote:
TheHolyChicken wrote:New article: http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/gdc ... iever-now/
EDIT: booth looks fantastic, brantlew!
Hmm. Another article that mentions blurryness.
He said "blurry and grainy around the edges", that's something we already knew due to the way the optics stretch the pixels out at the edges. Honestly, I think a lot of this "blurriness" talk comes down to IPD adjustments and rushing people through without having time to adjust the headset to each individual. That and people using the word blurriness in place of what it really is; low resolution.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Kerry »

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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Modab »

Kerry wrote:Article from Penny Arcade
http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/ ... ood-as-you
This article definitively states that the shipping development kit is "grainier" than the prototype. Unfortunate, but he still really liked it, so I'm not worried that much.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by C3DPO »

Bishop51 wrote:
lovelyhead wrote:
TheHolyChicken wrote:New article: http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/gdc ... iever-now/
EDIT: booth looks fantastic, brantlew!
Hmm. Another article that mentions blurryness.
He said "blurry and grainy around the edges", that's something we already knew due to the way the optics stretch the pixels out at the edges. Honestly, I think a lot of this "blurriness" talk comes down to IPD adjustments and rushing people through without having time to adjust the headset to each individual. That and people using the word blurriness in place of what it really is; low resolution.
Good points. The take-away from that article was that he is another convert. In spite of the blur around the edges he is pre-ordering one. Don't let a few comments of blur distract from the fact that the vast majority of people are blown away and exited about it.

Keep the links to articles coming!
Last edited by C3DPO on Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Parallaxis »

TheHolyChicken wrote:New article: http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/gdc ... iever-now/
EDIT: booth looks fantastic, brantlew!
Wow - this guy really digs it. This doesn't make the waiting easier.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by C3DPO »

Modab wrote:
Kerry wrote:Article from Penny Arcade
http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/ ... ood-as-you
This article definitively states that the shipping development kit is "grainier" than the prototype. Unfortunate, but he still really liked it, so I'm not worried that much.
But he also said that "graininess" is easy to ignore. He also has a pre-order for a dev kit himself.

I can't WAIT
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Parallaxis »

Kerry wrote:Article from Penny Arcade
http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/ ... ood-as-you
Another super positive article that makes the waiting even longer.

Hawken is really receiving extremely positive feedback. But not really because of the game itself, more because of how immersive the Rift is.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by brantlew »

Yeah, you can pick the thing apart if you want - but I think the overwhelming response and underlying message here is that when it comes down to it - the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Unless you are a seasoned VR guy, then the qualitative shift in immersion is what people tend to come away with and remember.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by s0uL »

Sounds like the Oculus booth is completely overrun with people in line wanting to try it, current line pic via twitter:

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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by 2EyeGuy »

crespo80 wrote:The integrated magnetometer will not be enough to address the drift problems, because its data are a lot less reliable then the gyro and accelerometer data, they can't fuse them with the others in the same way, they are less valuable.
The VR920 only has magnetometers and accelerometers (no gyros). It generally works, and has no drift.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Parallaxis »

brantlew wrote:Yeah, you can pick the thing apart if you want - but I think the overwhelming response and underlying message here is that when it comes down to it - the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Unless you are a seasoned VR guy, then the qualitative shift in immersion is what people tend to come away with and remember.
I think this is a very important point - because all the individual parts is going to be tweaked over time. Better display, tracking, weight, design and so on. But if the sum of all the inferior parts is a impressive device, it's only going to get so much better in the next revision.

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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Aabel »

NikoKun wrote:
I really really hope SOMEONE puts these panels up online to see. If not legitimately, then to spite the asshats who felt it necessary to charge $500 to see it.
I'm very interested in what Oculus and Valve have to say about VR at this conference, been waiting for this for a month or so, and I assumed both valve and oculus wanted people to see it too.

At the VERY LEAST, I hope the gaming media post write-up articles about the panels.. :/
Feel free to host your own panels and post them online for free then if you don't like it.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Zoide »

A friend of mine went to the Oculus GDC booth today.
He said the experience was "so-so". Here is a summary of what he said:

Pros
- The immersion is good.
- He did not feel any latency.
- Falling from the sky in Hawken is fun.
- It's worth the $300. It's very novel tech and something you will enjoy.

Cons
- You can still see a black edge at the end of the screen. He had to imagine he was wearing a helmet in order for that not to distract him.
- The pixel density is "very low", and "you feel like you're looking at a very old TV". The immersion would be much better if they increased the pixel density, because "sometimes you do notice the pixels".
- The demo was way too short (minute and a half). He thinks after 10 minutes you'd start to enjoy it a lot more.

Neutral
- He expected more from the Rift (he'd read several overly enthusiastic reviews), yet after trying it he is even more anxious to get his dev kit :)
- It takes a while to get used to the fact that you can move your head around (he'd never tried VR before).

Pretty much in line with what I expected. The only thing that surprised me is the part about the black borders. It was my understanding that the greater FoV in the 7" panel greatly reduced that? BTW, my friend was wearing contacts. Perhaps someone wearing glasses used the HMD before him and they forgot to bring the panel closer after he was done?
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by mrklaw »

brantlew wrote:Yeah, you can pick the thing apart if you want - but I think the overwhelming response and underlying message here is that when it comes down to it - the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Unless you are a seasoned VR guy, then the qualitative shift in immersion is what people tend to come away with and remember.
Absolutely. The penny arcade article mentions graininess briefly, and then dismisses it as easily ignored literally in the same sentence.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by brantlew »

Zoide wrote:Cons
- You can still see a black edge at the end of the screen. He had to imagine he was wearing a helmet in order for that not to distract him.
There is a subtlety here that can easily get misunderstood. Your peripheral vision does pick up the edge of the lens and structure that they are contained within. Form you hands into opposing C shapes and cup them wide around your eyebrows and nose. That limits your FOV to approximately the same FOV as the Rift, but you can still see the edge of your hands in your periphery and it forms a sort of oval around your view like a diving mask. That's what it's like in the Rift.

But the "true" edge of the screen where the pixels stop is not visible in the Dev Kit without significant effort. If you could see the true screen edge it would appear as two black lines bulging inwards from the sides.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Parallaxis »

TweakTown hands-on (Hawken)

[youtube]http://youtu.be/bV6jHSd7nrg[/youtube]

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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by colocolo »

Cons
- You can still see a black edge at the end of the screen. He had to imagine he was wearing a helmet in order for that not to distract him.
was that neccessary to mention, you are destroying my illusions and excited anticipation.
i can be very fussy because of things like that. :o
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Bretspot »

Does it make sense to have some sort of 3d or 2d overlay instead of the black portion of the "unseen" part of the rift display? Sort of like the edges of a diving mask or something else. (I keep imagining Samus's helmet in Metroid). Maybe even make it sort of blury
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Machinima »

I wonder if sticking a powerful magnet on top of your monitor would improve the magnetometer performance re drift... actually how powerful would that magnet have to be :D
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

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Bretspot wrote:Does it make sense to have some sort of 3d or 2d overlay instead of the black portion of the "unseen" part of the rift display? Sort of like the edges of a diving mask or something else. (I keep imagining Samus's helmet in Metroid). Maybe even make it sort of blury
I don't understand what you mean. It already is like a diving mask but the dark that you see is not LCD - it's plastic.
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Re: GDC 2013 - News and impressions

Post by Parallaxis »

Machinima wrote:I wonder if sticking a powerful magnet on top of your monitor would improve the magnetometer performance re drift... actually how powerful would that magnet have to be :D
As far as I know it doesn't need to be improved. Magnetometers are very precise. But the software needs to correct the orientation after the magnetometer once in a while to avoid drift. If it doesn't, it will drift eventually.
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