VR Game ideas from the ground up.

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brantlew
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by brantlew »

I love the idea of tennis because it opens up the possibility for 1:1 body tracking. There are a few sports including bowling, tennis, boxing, golf, volleyball, some parts of football, and others that lend themselves to body tracking because they occur largely within a limited space. I've been toying with this idea ever since I started mounting cameras on basketball courts a year ago. True motion first-person sports simulators - not just a simulation of a television event. I think there is a huge untapped market for this.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by Okta »

I want to play a full VR bjj game, where you can attack with flying gogoplata's.....
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by STRZ »

Online VR e-sports, huge potential there because lots of non typical gamers would join if it's done right. Has anybody a idea how to overcome the limitation of free movement at home? Hitting with a tennis racket, similar to what the Clang guys do with their swords would be doable i think, but how do you run jump etc. when not with a gamepad/analog stick?
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by vtms »

Fredz wrote:
vtms wrote:If done right, but only if the game physics is accurate and only then (and no tennis game ever has done this even remotely right)
Which is unfortunate since the physic of a tennis ball is quite simple, I started to work on a tennis game and realistic physic was my goal (very well explained in "The Physics of Paintball" website). But the problem is more with the interaction of the players with the ball, which need a different way to handle things correctly (and in real time) compared to current games.
Yes, a racket strikes a ball a million different ways depending on direction, spin, string tension/type and body's directional momentum. If physics of the game were done correctly, players' results would improve only if their whole-body technique improved.

Another dream feature of the game? Classic player simulation. Imagine playing against Roger Federer simulation or Agassi simulation. I guess this would involve some kind of intelligent archival video capture that would "learn" player' techniques, styles and strategies from the actual footage. It would be just awesome to step onto the central court at Wimbledon and not win a point against Federer in the first round. :-) This would never happen IRW, only in VR. Tennis fans would pay fortune for a simulation like this, but only if physics and physical simulations were near perfect.

As beginners, players would ascend through USTA-like ratings and play in "local" leagues and tournaments as well as with virtual hitting partners for fun. This could potentially be unbelievable.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by STRZ »

Tennis is probably a good AR idea too, you could go to a real crappy court and simulate Wimbledon surroundings, a virtual tennis ball and the opponent like Federer. Maybe good VR sports games could easy transcend into AR when the tech is ready! 8-)

To model a AI Player you need to study him and be an expert in behaviour trees (game AI). You'd make a standard model of a tennis player and then shape the values of your behaviour three until it behaves like Federer himself. Very challenging, i'm messing with that stuff ATM, because it's the basical stuff for sports games.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by vtms »

STRZ wrote:Tennis is probably a good AR idea too, you could go to a real crappy court and simulate Wimbledon surroundings, a virtual tennis ball and the opponent like Federer. Maybe good VR sports games could easy transcend into AR when the tech is ready! 8-)

To model a AI Player you need to study him and be an expert in behaviour trees (game AI). You'd make a standard model of a tennis player and then shape the values of your behaviour three until it behaves like Federer himself. Very challenging, i'm messing with that stuff ATM, because it's the basical stuff for sports games.
Yes, AR tennis on a real court would be fantastic too if the physics, precision and latency were done correctly.

For good classic player simulation one would probably need to apply advanced AI that could abstract all the nuances of player's motion, technique and style. This could never be coded in by a programmer. Current AI is getting there until it will be able to capture the "essence" of tennis legends or legends of other sports by watching hours of archive video.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by Fredz »

I think it depends on the level of abstraction you want to use, I think you could perfectly be able to simulate a lot of the strategic aspects of tennis with a simple pong simulation, and that it could be more realistic than a Topspin 4 game.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by vtms »

Fredz wrote:I think it depends on the level of abstraction you want to use, I think you could perfectly be able to simulate a lot of the strategic aspects of tennis with a simple pong simulation, and that it could be more realistic than a Topspin 4 game.
Tennis is far more complicated than that, exponentially more. A game stripped of its true complexity might be amusing for a while, but only for a while.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by STRZ »

Style (visually) in Tennis is basically performing a task in a determined manner wich you could motion capture and then assign, or copying it with good and cutting edge character animation techniques. This would determine parts of the AI as well, like if ye plays the backhand double handed or not and so on. The final part is the strategic behaviour wich could be gained through the analyzing data of certain players. Mostly things tied to where a player shows up on the court during a match. How often does he go torwards the net and so on.

Your virtual role model of a tennis player would act totally balanced, and each action is tied to main topics and subtopics of your behaviour tree. Like stamina beeing a main topic, and other properties tied to that in subtopics. To get a raw model of a certain player analyzing his strenghts and weaknesses helps, because players compensate or use them.

Then you'd have to analyze data, for example from federer and your basic model, and know where to adjust the values in your behaviour three until the basic model behaves like the real Federer. You'd need to compare against a lot of his matches, and if he change his behaviour relative to the playing style of the opponent. If you notice that he more likely will do x than y if he faces somebody who has a certain strenght, you could use that knowledge too.

Most game studios won't go that deep, because the audience doesn't care.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by drifter »

nice to see some tennis fans in this forum :)
Fredz wrote:I started to work on a tennis game and realistic physic was my goal
i guess we are quite a bunch on the same idea
a tennis sim we hoped for when the first wii was coming (and then we had... wii sports)
...and now we have the Hydra and the Rift is coming 8-)

As expected with my own proto, it's hard to properly hit the ball without stereo, head tracking and 1:1 scale (and very hard with fraps running on my old rig :? ), i could maybe add my Track IR but i dont think it will help much...

sorry for the bad quality (and sorry STRZ for the bad IA, lol) :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7tm_T6-0-g[/youtube]

the gampeplay is still crude, I dont have so much control on the velocity of the ball at the moment, but the direction is already pretty accurate (and there's even a bit of effects, as you can admire my sliced backhands 8-) ). Like IRL, my BH in game is much better than my FH, that must be a good sign !

before that i made a ping-pong proto, much more playable (but still far to be realistic) :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XS4ntnyo_8[/youtube]

i'm quite satisfied with the hydra performance so far (despite a few flaws), i think that will be a good combo with the Rift for racket games with good sensations (not perfect sims yet, though)
and maybe if one day we have a good wireless Hydra 2, tennis schools could start to buy rifts 8-) ...
Last edited by drifter on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by STRZ »

Nice work drifter, your opponent plays already better than me :lol:
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by vtms »

A luxury house: the object is to provide as detailed demonstration of a real environment as possible, to the point of being able to spot dust specks on a wall if you put your eyes close enough to it. This would be a proof of concept for how perfect a simulation of a real world place could get. Ideally, people would not be able to distinguish the VR simulation of the place from the real thing. The emphasis would be very much on quality over quantity. Once finished, people would go relax there, live there and even invite friends to hang out with, all in VR.

Simulation would involve a system that integrates high-resolution RAW picture/video data of every square inch of the place into a VR structure people could visit in VR. Without automation this would be a huge task, but, I can imagine autonomous systems, say, high-end cameras mounted on swarm of coordinated mini-drones VR-capturing whole skyscrapers in a matter of days. Then, we'd do places like Manhattan and whole cities. Then, we'd go on VR-capturing the rest of the world, then space. That'd be awesome.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by Fredz »

drifter wrote:i'm quite satisfied with the hydra performance so far (despite a few flaws), i think that will be a good combo with the Rift for racket games with good sensations (not perfect sims yet, though) and maybe if one day we have a good wireless Hydra 2, tennis schools could start to buy rifts 8-) ...
Nice start, maybe a PS Move/PS Eye combination could be a good replacement for the Hydra. Wireless and good grip, but there would still be the problem of line-of-sight. Could be mitigated by the fact that it's probably possible to predict the movement of the racket not long after the start of the swing.

I need to find where I've put the sources of my tennis game, it's been long since I touched it. :)
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by vtms »

For tennis, I think this would be helpful: http://www.gizmag.com/rafael-nadal-demo ... uet/22699/
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by drifter »

vtms wrote:For tennis, I think this would be helpful: http://www.gizmag.com/rafael-nadal-demo ... uet/22699/
Ho yeah, i remember that, didn't Nadal blast the sensors because of his illegal top spin ? :lol:

btw maybe we should create a VR tennis topic...
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by STRZ »

drifter wrote:
vtms wrote:For tennis, I think this would be helpful: http://www.gizmag.com/rafael-nadal-demo ... uet/22699/
Ho yeah, i remember that, didn't Nadal blast the sensors because of his illegal top spin ? :lol:
:lol:
btw maybe we should create a VR tennis topic...
Yup, or maybe a general VR sports topic? 8-)

VR has good potential to revolutionize the spectator view too, imagine a future sports MMO where the spectators walk around with their Rifts and take seat inside a stadium to watch a game of other Rift users. Outside the stadium, where normally the hotdog and bratwurst stands are, you set up stores for other games and drivers, so that people can buy games or additional content ingame :o
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by ronjart »

I've built a simple bike trainer (cadence is the only input so far) that I hope to integrate with the rift. The idea of a real physical workout (not the wii-fit-running-in-place kind of workout) coupled with an immersive, social experience seems intriguing.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by drifter »

nice idea ronjart, do you have videos ?
if you can mod a trainer bike to have direction control, that would be awesome with the rift.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

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STRZ wrote:VR has good potential to revolutionize the spectator view too, imagine a future sports MMO where the spectators walk around with their Rifts and take seat inside a stadium to watch a game of other Rift users.

you could walk around the player field (being invisible for the players), or fly over it
you could apply the same concept for IRL sport events, as we have now the technology to get a 3d model of the live game in real time
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by STRZ »

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuLTDueMZVI[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1JqT6P0Qi4[/youtube]

Just imagine how they'd freak out with the Rift instead of that tiny screen.

@ drifter

For the hometrainer, to mod steering capability into it, you could get a cheap 40$ PC racing wheel, and replace the steering wheel with a handlebar, and then mount it differently. The guy in the second video did something similar.
you could walk around the player field (being invisible for the players), or fly over it
you could apply the same concept for IRL sport events, as we have now the technology to get a 3d model of the live game in real time
Brilliant idea. Just imagine when big sports leagues all over the world recognize the possibilities, like merging a IRL game with a virtual stadium so that more people from all over the world could have a stadium experience rather than sitting in front of the TV!

Better than that would be only another row in the stadium with thousands of little remotely adjustable cameras wich would follow your head movement, so you could be in the real stadium, living on the other side of the world.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

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I want to watch a fed vs djoko from the umpire chair :)
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

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STRZ wrote:For the hometrainer, to mod steering capability into it, you could get a cheap 40$ PC racing wheel, and replace the steering wheel with a handlebar, and then mount it differently. The guy in the second video did something similar.
nice setup for a bicycle sim (but less for a motorbike sim, as you must have a tilting seat, pushing your guidon in the opposite side of the curve)
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

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was thinking of project names, isn't "VR -something- Simulation" a pleonasm and should be avoided ?
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by STRZ »

drifter wrote:
STRZ wrote:For the hometrainer, to mod steering capability into it, you could get a cheap 40$ PC racing wheel, and replace the steering wheel with a handlebar, and then mount it differently. The guy in the second video did something similar.
nice setup for a bicycle sim (but less for a motorbike sim, as you must have a tilting seat, pushing your guidon in the opposite side of the curve)
Weight balancing matters with cycling as well, just try it to move only the handle bar when you ride a bicycle and going through a curve :lol:

I get your point, you need tilting, even more like the guy with his simulator in the video. I imagine that this could be done with actuators, because you need to simulate the gravity wich put you back in upright position too :P
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

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well i won't compare bicycle and motorbike handeling in a curve ;)
i mean, tilting is more needed in a motorbike sim, because of the way it's handled (it would be hawkward without it, as you push your guidon toward the outside of the turn (not like in the last video))


Not really VR games but there is also a lot to do here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_reality_therapy
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by STRZ »

The guy in the video is suffering a really bad input lag and it appears more like riding a slow street bike considering his movement. I get what you mean, real racing needs much more body work in sharp curves.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by Leahy »

On a tangential note, from what I've read the pcgamerbike is pretty crappy. Anyone have any suggestions on how to make your own or if there is a thread dedicated to that? I recall something similar about modding a treadmill.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by ronjart »

nice idea ronjart, do you have videos ?
if you can mod a trainer bike to have direction control, that would be awesome with the rift.
My idea is to have the "roll" output from the rift be the steering (leaning = turning). I figure that would reduce the hardware setup while still be somewhat realistic. I'll try to record a video sometime (it's a really bare bone hackjob so far).

I'm more of a content kind of guy so I'm not focusing too much on building a 100% accurate bicycle simulation.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

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ronjart wrote:My idea is to have the "roll" output from the rift be the steering (leaning = turning).
That could work ! I guess it be will better to lean more with the upper body than with the head (for the sake of your neck), so you will need positional tracking.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by 2EyeGuy »

You don't need positional tracking, just guess that the roll comes from their torso instead of their neck (it probably does).
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

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i mean trying to get into a "knee down position" (at some extent) without positional tracking would be weird and not at all immersive, i guess
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by msfreemind »

This isn't from the ground up, but I think puzzle games like Metal Gear Solid: VR Missions and the Portal series would be fun.

VR Missions is third-person, though. I think it would be better in first-person, because I don't see how third-person games like that would work with a HMD.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by PasticheDonkey »

just remembered something that would be perfect, pinball.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by superbike81 »

drifter wrote:i mean trying to get into a "knee down position" (at some extent) without positional tracking would be weird and not at all immersive, i guess

Unless they come up with something that no one is thinking of, I think crouching will still be something we have to do with a button on a gamepad. The only other way it can really be done is with full on simulation rooms with moving floors and everything.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by Linkage1992 »

What about a maze game which uses a rift and an ordinary treadmill? This would work well since in a maze you can only move in one direction anyway. If you come to a fork in the road simply turn your head in the direction you want to go and start walking! Of course the treadmill would have to be connected to the computer for the movement to be recognized and used as input.

With more advanced computer controlled treadmills you could also create linear obstacle courses, where the incline of the treadmill adjusts depending on the sort of terrain you're on. For instance if you were running up a hill in-game it could adjust accordingly. You could probably integrate the head tracking to change direction like the maze game but this would probably be extremely disorienting, which is not desirable when exercising.

If you wanted to simply go for a stroll you could load up some beach scenery. Maybe you could be on a thin walkway, in which case the handles on the sides of most treadmills would "disappear" into the virtual world and would simply become the handrails of the walkway in game. Now that would be immersive! It would certainly make exercising less tedious for most people. :)
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by snorelab »

I think a castle siege game would be quite amazing. You could play as a mounted general riding around among the enormous, amassed army. In VR you would really get the scale of the giant, imposing castle. You could launch catapults, command archers, send in troops, etc. If done right it could be quite an emotional and overwhelming experience.

I also agree that a ping pong game would be great. It is perfect for taking a half hour break from your day to have a little fun before getting back to work. With VR you get the added bonus of being able to play on a tropical island, a bar in Hong Kong, or on the Battlestar Galactica. Or play against famous people, historical figures.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by STRZ »

Riftzilla!!!

Imagine a beeing Godzilla like creature in a correct sized virtual world, or the other way round, fighting such a monster in a multimplayer online team effort.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by PasticheDonkey »

superbike81 wrote:
drifter wrote:i mean trying to get into a "knee down position" (at some extent) without positional tracking would be weird and not at all immersive, i guess

Unless they come up with something that no one is thinking of, I think crouching will still be something we have to do with a button on a gamepad. The only other way it can really be done is with full on simulation rooms with moving floors and everything.
i always thought it should be on an analogue trigger. then jumping could be releasing the trigger sharply. only problem would be wear on the controllers mechanics, but it could be calibrated. in games where you can go prone that would be the extent of the triggers range. fighting games become more than only middle or low stances. lots of advantages. racing games went from x to accellerate to triggers. and games with jumping and crouching should do the same.
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by drifter »

I want to play Proteus in VR :woot
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Re: VR Game ideas from the ground up.

Post by Daloots »

I don't know if it's been suggested yet, but how about VR karaoke? Instead of reading lyrics from a TV in a bar for of strangers, imagine being on stage with the actual VR band members of your favourite band. In front of a city park full of fans or on stage in a small jazz club.
It could have game dynamics like Singstar, but I think the experience alone would be rewarding enough.
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