Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

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Dycus
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

Alkapwn wrote:Haven't seen this posted yet so here's yet another interview/video of the Rift in action.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/16/ocul ... -hands-on/

And as many have done before, they get some of the details wrong. But I think the main things to note for most of us are:

1. The SINGLE cable running from the headset
2. The box that it appears to be attached to.
[snip]

Looks like Power, USB, DVI, VGA, S-video and component. This would be great for implementation with a slip ring on the ceiling only having to deal with one cable. Not sure if this is final or not, but interesting nonetheless.
I made that box! I had to figure out how to put LVDS and USB over HDMI, but it wasn't too hard. We even had two extra pins in case we wanna add some LEDs on the head mount or something, I dunno. :P

Palmer was actually saying it'd be really cool to get a 19-pin slipring and attach the head mount to it. Might be something fun to play with once we get our office.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by brantlew »

@Dycus: Nice work. Cool to have you on-board here.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Owen »

With the new single cable design, it would be really useful to have a usb port on the headset itself. Then we could attach extra tracking hardware or cameras to it without further reducing freedom of motion.

It would be a modder's dream if we could, for instance, build a magnetometer into something like a usb thumbstick and just plug it into the top of the headset.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Alkapwn »

Dycus wrote:
Alkapwn wrote:Haven't seen this posted yet so here's yet another interview/video of the Rift in action.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/16/ocul ... -hands-on/

And as many have done before, they get some of the details wrong. But I think the main things to note for most of us are:

1. The SINGLE cable running from the headset
2. The box that it appears to be attached to.
[snip]

Looks like Power, USB, DVI, VGA, S-video and component. This would be great for implementation with a slip ring on the ceiling only having to deal with one cable. Not sure if this is final or not, but interesting nonetheless.
I made that box! I had to figure out how to put LVDS and USB over HDMI, but it wasn't too hard. We even had two extra pins in case we wanna add some LEDs on the head mount or something, I dunno. :P

Palmer was actually saying it'd be really cool to get a 19-pin slipring and attach the head mount to it. Might be something fun to play with once we get our office.
So everything from the Headset is going through HDMI to the box? Are there any slip rings that you know of or could recommend that would have the ability to be used with an HDMI cable? Or if there are any sort of slip rings that have HDMI inputs on both ends? And if not, would this be something you guys might look into making available as standard or available option, seeing as there might be a fairly significant market for it once the dev kits get shipped. I'm talking to a slip ring manufacturing company now and seeing if they have something in stock that could be used with this. And if not they may be able to create a custom one. Is the final dev kit going to be using HDMI as the single cable? Or are you guys still looking into other cabling options?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

Alkapwn wrote:So everything from the Headset is going through HDMI to the box? Are there any slip rings that you know of or could recommend that would have the ability to be used with an HDMI cable? Or if there are any sort of slip rings that have HDMI inputs on both ends? And if not, would this be something you guys might look into making available as standard or available option, seeing as there might be a fairly significant market for it once the dev kits get shipped. I'm talking to a slip ring manufacturing company now and seeing if they have something in stock that could be used with this. And if not they may be able to create a custom one. Is the final dev kit going to be using HDMI as the single cable? Or are you guys still looking into other cabling options?
No idea if there are any sliprings for HDMI. My guess would be a big fat no.

We're only using an HDMI cable between the box and the headset right now because it has the right number of pins and twisted pairs of wire. We're not using HDMI ports in the dev kit or consumer version. I think we're getting custom cables made.

If you want a slipring, you're probably gonna need something with 18 or more pins. No idea what kind of connector or the final number of pins we'll be using, so I can't give you much more info right now.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Alkapwn »

Dycus wrote:
Alkapwn wrote:So everything from the Headset is going through HDMI to the box? Are there any slip rings that you know of or could recommend that would have the ability to be used with an HDMI cable? Or if there are any sort of slip rings that have HDMI inputs on both ends? And if not, would this be something you guys might look into making available as standard or available option, seeing as there might be a fairly significant market for it once the dev kits get shipped. I'm talking to a slip ring manufacturing company now and seeing if they have something in stock that could be used with this. And if not they may be able to create a custom one. Is the final dev kit going to be using HDMI as the single cable? Or are you guys still looking into other cabling options?
No idea if there are any sliprings for HDMI. My guess would be a big fat no.

We're only using an HDMI cable between the box and the headset right now because it has the right number of pins and twisted pairs of wire. We're not using HDMI ports in the dev kit or consumer version. I think we're getting custom cables made.

If you want a slipring, you're probably gonna need something with 18 or more pins. No idea what kind of connector or the final number of pins we'll be using, so I can't give you much more info right now.
Sweet deal. That's good enough for me. I shall dial back my search for the time being, until more concrete details become available. Thanks so much for the quick feedback and response. I really do think there would be a lot of people interested in a slip ring solution, as this would be the perfect way to really enjoy looking around the world without worrying about tripping on anything. Especially if using a wireless controller and headphones. Man I can't wait!
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Nick3DvB »

I've ordered one of those cheap 24 track capsule sliprings (I posted the ebay link a few pages back), I'm going to make up a combined DVI / USB / Audio cable and test it out on an old monitor. I think shielding might be a problem, hopefully it's not a sealed unit, I'll let you know how I get on.

@Dycus - the separate IO box is a good idea, I don't really want to have the driver board on the HMD either. I'm surprised you got the LVDS output running so far, that HDMI cable looks pretty chunky, did you have problems with thinner cables? Do you know if the pre-devs kits come with the large 7in1 driver board, with the RF tuner etc?
Last edited by Nick3DvB on Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by zalo »

Design the cable with as many extra pins as you can early in the design, so you can leverage them later without too much trouble.

And if you don't use them yourself, I'll be happy to make use of them! Leave them in for the dev kit, and if there's enough money, a leaner cable for the consumer version can be designed (but remember, that one will probably be modded more!)

Thanks for coming around here, Dycus!
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

Nick - It's kinda funny, because I never even grounded the shielding on the cable. :P Then again, we didn't test it near any microwaves, so who knows...
All I had to do was make sure the twisted pairs on the LVDS cable were on the twisted pairs in the HDMI cable. We even had one extra twisted pair; that was used for USB data.
When I was testing the range, I hooked up a 6(?) foot cable and a 2.5 foot cable through a female-female adapter, and it worked perfectly. It could probably go a lot further. You just have to make sure you're using passive HDMI cables, or it's gonna screw up everything.

We actually had one of these that it worked perfectly with (the 2.5' one), so thinness isn't an issue. We just didn't have a long enough cable that was really thin.

The dev kits will only have HDMI and DVI video inputs. The crazy driver board was just what we had at the time. in fact, it's easy to trim them down to take out all the analog inputs, but I didn't wanna risk it with our last working driver board.

Zalo - Thanks!
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by android78 »

This may not be the proper place to ask this, but I'm wondering if John Carmack has indicated if the doom 3 BFG will include independent gun tracking to head? I've been looking around to see, and there seems to be hints that he has played with it, but no actual confirmation.
It would seem to be something really important for making the game more immersive to me, and I would think fairly easy to implement in code. I mean, in terms of API support for it.
Has anyone seen/heard any confirmation of this?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by IGameArt »

Yes, apparently it's only vertically however, so looking left and right will swing the gun left and right but you can raise and lower the gun independent of your view.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by android78 »

hmmm... that's cool, I guess. Where did you get this info from though? I thought I'd read all the articles on this. lol
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Post by IGameArt »

I've seen Carmack mention it a few times in various videos. That's basically all the info i've compiled from watching him talk at various interviews and stuff.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by cybereality »

Yeah, I remember hearing that in some of the videos also.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by JayJay »

Hey Guys! Just as I promised here is my feedback about my encounter with the Rift from Gamescom!

You can notice the low resolution but as soon as your brain makes the switch (accepting the virtual reality to be 'reality') you forget all about it. That switch happened to me 2 seconds after I put the rift on my head. Amazingly immersive, Nate & Lucky where talking to me but they might as well started talking to a wall because I was no longer in a meeting room, I was in a flipping scary spaceship! Coolness level = 12/10.

Also I'm nearsighted (-2, -3) and was using the rift without lenses/glasses and had no real issues with it.

Because it was so immersive, I really had to restrain myself from walking around, I just felt the need to start walking & explore that spaceship I was in, totally forgot I wasn't really there, hah!

There was also another guy testing the rift ahead of me and he couldn't handle it. After a couple of minutes he shouted 'stop stop get me out!" :)
I talked to him afterwards and he said it was so intense, so immersive he panicked & got very scared. (Doom3 isn't exactly super mario after all)

Now, if a early prototype can create emotions like that imagine what the finished version will be able to do!

After chilling down a bit he did try it for a second time, this time he did it sitting instead of standing and that went a lot better for him. Standing
is definitely more immersive.

Bottom line: yes it's not perfect but you can clearly see that this prototype will evolve into something that will blow everybody's mind, no question about that. Better be ready for the VR revolution everybody, it's gonna be one hell of a ride, woohoo!
"Creating the world's most immersive virtual reality erotic encounters @ http://www.wickedparadise.com"
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Endothermic »

Someone said he mentioned the weapon was decoupled on the vertical but the yaw still moved the view so either moving the controller sideways or your head both make your view turn but only the head makes the view change vertically the controller does not.

In several interviews and at the end of the QA of his keynote he talks about weapon positioning in VR and with the huge FOV of the RIFT one unintended but good side effect is since the weapon is decoupled from the view you tend to lower it when nothing is around since you don't need it and you can see alot more of the environment and when something comes out at you you raise it to attack.

The thing I can't gather from any of the written or video interviews is whether the aiming crosshair is decoupled or not as he only ever says the "weapon" is decoupled. Talks about you can move the weapon up and down independant of the head tracking but does that make the crosshair for aiming move up and down as well or does it only make the weapon model move up and down and the crosshair is fixed to the center of the screen like it currently is? So if you lower the weapon so that you can't see it on screen is the crosshair now at the bottom of the center (or off it completely) of the screen or is the crosshair still at the center of the screen and you just can't shoot anything untill you raise the weapon up into firing positon?

Perhaps you can answer that JayJay?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Waggler »

I'd like to know this as well even tho I did try the Rift at Gamescom. While I do remember clearly that gun moves along with the camera view around every axis, I only used the right stick to spin around and never to look up and down. I was always using my head for that :/

I'm uploading a video of my hands on on YT (30 minutes to go). I'll post a link to it when I'm done. I'll keep the video Unlisted tho because I need to modify one of its captions: I was under the impression that the"Oculus Box" was just a DVI/HDMI video converter, buy reading Dycus post it seems to be much more than that :)

The fixed caption will read: "The display of Oculus Rift prototype is connected to a PC through a custom made box capable of forwarding both video and sensors data across a single HDMI cable. " (would that be correct Dycus?)
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

Palmer should upload a picture of the insides. It's a control board for the screen, plus a USB port we added for the tracker. Pretty much it. But yeah, that's an accurate description.

As for view/gun movement in Doom - when I last looked at, here's how it was set up. All guns had a laser sight, no crosshair. When you looked around with the Rift, it would move the gun wherever you were looking. The right stick could be pressed left and right to spin you, up and down to move the gun up and down. However, looking up and down still moved the gun, too.

So you would be able to play the game without the headtracking. It'd be a bit difficult, though.
I have no idea if that will be the final control scheme, or if Carmack has even changed it already. That's what it was when I saw it last, at Quakecon.
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Post by Waggler »

Dycus wrote:Palmer should upload a picture of the insides. It's a control board for the screen, plus a USB port we added for the tracker. Pretty much it. But yeah, that's an accurate description.

As for view/gun movement in Doom - when I last looked at, here's how it was set up. All guns had a laser sight, no crosshair. When you looked around with the Rift, it would move the gun wherever you were looking. The right stick could be pressed left and right to spin you, up and down to move the gun up and down. However, looking up and down still moved the gun, too.

So you would be able to play the game without the headtracking. It'd be a bit difficult, though.
I have no idea if that will be the final control scheme, or if Carmack has even changed it already. That's what it was when I saw it last, at Quakecon.
Thanks Dycus. :)

About moving the gun up and down with the stick. What happens when you release the stick once you have moved the gun to some degree in either direction? Does is snap back to the starting position (lookspring)? I would assume so otherwise you'd find yourself looking around with the gun titled oddly until you readjust its pitch manually, so to speak.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

Nope, the gun stays where it is. It is a bit strange. I hardly moved the gun up and down, though, as I could just look up and down a bit when necessary. The head tracking does make it a lot easier to aim (as a PC FPS gamer, I don't really like aiming with joysticks).
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by marbas »

I have to agree with what Carmack said on the virtual panel. A gun mockup with rotation/position sensor..on there..would be insanely cool together with the rift hmd :) Something I'm going to look into as a DIY project.
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Post by Waggler »

Dycus wrote:Nope, the gun stays where it is. It is a bit strange. I hardly moved the gun up and down, though, as I could just look up and down a bit when necessary. The head tracking does make it a lot easier to aim (as a PC FPS gamer, I don't really like aiming with joysticks).
So when you said you can move the gun up/down with the stick you meant to say the gun *along* with the camera? If that's the case, then I assume pitching via stick employs some sort of lookspring solution so that when you release the stick the camera orientation adjusts so that it matches head orientation.

Update: Damn youtube screwed up the video upload. I need to reupload the whole thing :/ Will keep you posted.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

Sorry, should have been more clear. The only way to move the camera is moving the right stick left/right, and looking around with the head mount. Up/down on the right stick only moves the gun up and down in the view, but it does not move the camera.
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Post by Waggler »

Dycus wrote:Sorry, should have been more clear. The only way to move the camera is moving the right stick left/right, and looking around with the head mount. Up/down on the right stick only moves the gun up and down in the view, but it does not move the camera.
Ok, thanks for the clarification :)

I'm uploading a SD version of my Rift hands on video btw. According to YT it should take 70 minutes.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Haemato »

I'm sure they'll come up with a natural feeling control system that makes sense. Right now I'm hoping to still use a mouse to control aiming a gun in an FPS. Basically the mouse would control the body/gun position and then I could look around using the head tracking on Rift. I guess we'll see ...
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Owen »

The main problem with full decoupling of the weapon and view is sensor drift. Gravity gives you an absolute reference for pitch and roll, but yaw can only be approximated by integration with the Rift's current sensors. For my own prototype I think I will probably end up strapping an iphone to my head to get use of its magnetometer, and hope that the eventual consumer Rift has one built in.
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Post by Waggler »

Owen wrote:The main problem with full decoupling of the weapon and view is sensor drift. Gravity gives you an absolute reference for pitch and roll, but yaw can only be approximated by integration with the Rift's current sensors. For my own prototype I think I will probably end up strapping an iphone to my head to get use of its magnetometer, and hope that the eventual consumer Rift has one built in.
The PlayStation Move is very good at tracking yaw rotations by mixing sensors data with sphere position data. If anyone has access to the Move.Me SDK (PS3 needed), I think it would be worth a try. The Move is also wireless.

I don't know how latency fares compared to whatever it's built into the Rift, but it seems rather responsive to me going by my experience with Datura.

Here is a video I did of Datura headtracking in action: http://youtu.be/R7rtL8Caqhg?hd=1&t=14m38s

Datura headtracking only tracks orientation, but that's because devs added this feature at the last minute.

The Move also features a magnetometer by the way.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Waggler »

Alright, here is the video I recorded during my Rift hands-on at Gamescom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bngztaUnIoQ

Due to the lack of a traditional screen showing what I was seeing, I had to do some voice commentary to describe what I was seeing/doing/feeling, exposing my terrible English in the process. Sorry about that.

Short interview with Palmer at the end of the video.

I'll post the HD version of the video later on, when I'm done with the related article I'm putting together for my site.

Hope you enjoy it.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Callezetter »

Thanks Waggler, and dont worry about the english. I had no problem following you. Your review
actually gave more input than most. Well done describing your experience!
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Post by German »

Waggler wrote:Alright, here is the video I recorded during my Rift hands-on at Gamescom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bngztaUnIoQ
Nice video, your English was fine. You did spell Palmer's name wrong in the "Interview with Plamer" title at the beginning of the interview section.
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Post by IGameArt »

@Waggler, that was a really good video and interview. I like how in depth you went when describing everything that you saw in the game since we can't see it ourselves.
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Post by Jotschi »

Dycus or Palmer,

Maybe you could give us some clues whether the Rift will still be "open-source" as the topic suggests. Will the driver/glsl wrapper shaders be open source and or the design itself?

I also wonder whether you will make the rift compatible with linux. The hillcrest tracker driver is closed source and not supported by linux (afaik).

Kind regards,

Jotschi
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Post by Waggler »

German wrote:
Waggler wrote:Alright, here is the video I recorded during my Rift hands-on at Gamescom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bngztaUnIoQ
Nice video, your English was fine. You did spell Palmer's name wrong in the "Interview with Plamer" title at the beginning of the interview section.
Ah! Thanks! That will be fixed in the final vid :)

@IGameArt - Thanks!
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Post by Guig2000 »

Personally I feel that the head tracker should move the gun and the view (so the same way it's done into Domm3 + the rift) and the pad should allow to move the gun into the view.
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Post by android78 »

@Waggler - Thanks for the video, it was really great to see, and I had no problems with your English. You mentioned that you would prefer to aim with motion controller, but you also mentioned that holding your hand up didn't break the immersion. Do you think that seeing your hand being tracked would add a lot to the experience?

In terms of the problem of drift of the gyro affecting proper positioning of hand tracking (like the hydra razer), I was thinking that the best solution would be to have the reference (base station) actually on the HMD. It doesn't really matter if the view drifts as you will be doing gross adjustments to your direction as you play anyway. The main thing is that your hand position relative to your view must be correct. I wonder if this has been investigated in any depth.
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Post by cybereality »

@Waggler: Cool video, thanks.
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Post by Waggler »

android78 wrote:@Waggler - Thanks for the video, it was really great to see, and I had no problems with your English. You mentioned that you would prefer to aim with motion controller, but you also mentioned that holding your hand up didn't break the immersion. Do you think that seeing your hand being tracked would add a lot to the experience?
.
I would prefer to aim with the hand simply because it would feel more natural. As it is now, it feels like you are aiming with a gun attached to your head basically. Which feels very real, but is hardly natural. Also, aiming with the hand would leave you free to look around in the process.

To answer your question, I guess it depends on how accurately the virtual hand is rendered over my real one. If you can make it so that a virtual hand matches the position of your real hand, it would totally feel like you are wearing a computer generated glove, if you get what I mean, which then again would add to the experience of being there of course. It's another piece of your body being accurately represented in the virtual space after all.

That said, with regards to FPSs, what I'd like to see in the future is motion controllers like the Hydra or the PlayStation Move being implemented as they were the stock of the virtual gun, rather than its barrel. Current implementations have you holding them like torchlights or laser pointers basically, which is fine, but I'd like to try out how it feels like to hold them as they were the actual stock of the virtual gun (ie: to aim straight, you'd need to hold them tilted upwards to different degrees depending on the weapon model).

On a side note, the way I envision the controls scheme of a VR FPS is basically like this:
- A 6DOF motion controller dedicated exclusively to gun control (its movement not affecting camera orientation whatsoever)
- A left stick for strafing / moving forward/backwards
- A right stick (located on the motion controller) for spinning around horizontally (dragging the weapon)
- Headtracking for looking around (without dragging the weapon).

Now, this solution poses a rather fundamental problem of course. Say you are looking 90° to your right via headtracking, and you start spinning anti-clockwise via the right stick, how should the virtual head behave? Should it stay still, like a tank turret, as the body spins below it resulting in anatomically unrealistic neck properties as well as in the player losing awareness of his virtual body orientation, or should it be dragged by the spinning body so that it starts spinning anti-clockwise even tho you are not turning your real head (possibly causing unpleasant vestibular-visual conflict, hence motion sickness?). I honestly don't know, but I'd love to see this kind of stuff investigated and prototyped by those who can.

edit: Thank you Cybereality!
Endothermic
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Endothermic »

Dycus when you move the stick up and down do you actually shoot in that higher and lower position or does the gun model only move up and down the field of view.

And when you move the gun down and out of the field of view is its just translating down or is it actually dropping/turn down so it is then pointing to the ground and can you still shoot but be shooting the ground or wherever the gun is facing or will it not let you fire till you bring the gun up?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by bobv5 »

waggler, I think a better idea would be like you said but instead of the right stick use another tracker on the shouders or lower back.

Your video was probably the best I have seen. Even though your English wasn't perfect you managed to give a lot more information than I have seen in other vids. It also helped that you seem to have previous knowledge of the technology and pointed out some of the flaws in the system, rather than just saying how awesome it is.

Am I the only person that has noticed that people using this thing look and sound that they are in a chemically altered state? I supose it is kind of the same, the mind in a different place from the body.

Edited for poor English. Doh!
Last edited by bobv5 on Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by android78 »

Waggler wrote:...
Now, this solution poses a rather fundamental problem of course. Say you are looking 90° to your right via headtracking, and you start spinning anti-clockwise via the right stick, how should the virtual head behave? Should it stay still, like a tank turret, as the body spins below it resulting in anatomically unrealistic neck properties as well as in the player losing awareness of his virtual body orientation, or should it be dragged by the spinning body so that it starts spinning anti-clockwise even tho you are not turning your real head (possibly causing unpleasant vestibular-visual conflict, hence motion sickness?). I honestly don't know, but I'd love to see this kind of stuff investigated and prototyped by those who can.

edit: Thank you Cybereality!
I think that it should work as if you're on a platform that is controlled by the right stick. So if you have turned 90 degrees to the right and then turn left with the stick, then it would be the same as if you were facing forward and turning left with the stick ie. turn right 90 degrees with your head and 90 degrees left with your stick and you would end up looking in the same direction you started. Also, if you turn your head 90 degrees to the right and strafe left, then to your view, you should be moving backwards, since your platform is moving left, not your view.
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