Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PasticheDonkey »

think of layering the information for the second view behind the complete first view and using parts of the first screen when necessary to do the screen space effects.

now a full render is better. that method is more like a 3d conversion. or a re-projection conversion of a cg film.

but anyway screen space effects time taken scales with resolution so cutting res makes them take less time.

you could also cull geometry not flatly away from one view. but taking both views into account. take the silhouette from the left eye for the left side of the object and the right for the right. and then cull behind the plane between them.

basically an engine designed for stereoscopy from the ground up could be a lot more efficient, than the hacks we have now.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Fredz »

Paladia wrote:It depends on the resolution and the HDMI version. HDMI 1.4b and onwards supports 120 hz at 1080p.
It doesn't only depend on the HDMI version but also on the HDMI transmission chips used in the controller board. Current displays are using 225MHz chips which are not able to support 120Hz in 1920x1080. Faster chips have been available for almost a year (300MHz from Silicon Image for example), but at this time no displays are using them.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

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the version is the standard of the chips used.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by cybereality »

The latest highend AMD cards actually have the new chips, so they could theoretically support 1080P60 3D (or 120Hz 2D) over HDMI if there were any displays capable.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PasticheDonkey »

and since AMD are the chip provider for the graphics in consoles as well expect those standards to be ubiquitous and hence able to be used. or better they might have hdmi 2.0 ready by then and 4k displays and a later version of the rift will be able to use that standard.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by STRZ »

Here the unofficial specs of the new xbox "Durango" http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive- ... -unveiled/

1.2TF GPU is really weak if you take in mind that their last gen was shipped with one of the most powerful GPU tech at it's time. I doubt that we see any VR @ 60FPS/1080p on this console ever. Even if they squeeze everything out of it. What a fail..
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PasticheDonkey »

it's good for the amount of wattage they can use and it'll go further than the equivalent chip in a PC. PCs are only more powerful now cos they use a lot more power than they used to.

also things like agni's philosphy run at 1080p60fps. on 2 gigs of video memory.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Owen »

SSAO is completely separate, and it is also a fixed cost per pixel so splitting the screen still makes no difference. Same cost as 1280x800 at 60hz.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by cerulianbaloo »

Yeah devs have to worry about a lot less overhead when developing for consoles, fine tuning performance for a streamlined hardware setup makes it a lot nicer on those systems' hardware. I remember playing the demo for red facton guerilla on 360 and of course it ran flawlessly, later played on pc with much better specs and it ran like garbage. Granted there were some extra bells and whistles the pc version had over the console one, but it still seemed like such a huge gap in performance.

I doubt very much Microsoft will consider an HMD unless the rift sells like gangbusters. What with their kinect 2.0 and that projection mapping thing that surrounds your room with the game world, it seems like they're more interested in AR than VR.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by STRZ »

cerulianbaloo wrote:Yeah devs have to worry about a lot less overhead when developing for consoles, fine tuning performance for a streamlined hardware setup makes it a lot nicer on those systems' hardware. I remember playing the demo for red facton guerilla on 360 and of course it ran flawlessly, later played on pc with much better specs and it ran like garbage. Granted there were some extra bells and whistles the pc version had over the console one, but it still seemed like such a huge gap in performance.
Normally the contrary is the case, with a nicely configured PC you get much better peformance, more FPS, more detail and better depth. But often it's like a lottery with drivers, especially if you use AMD/Ati GPU's. That's why i buy only Nvidia cards and avoid AMD.

What i find interesting iks that Valves Games like TF2 run much faster on Linux than on Windows http://rootgamer.com/news/team-fortress ... on-win-lin
I doubt very much Microsoft will consider an HMD unless the rift sells like gangbusters. What with their kinect 2.0 and that projection mapping thing that surrounds your room with the game world, it seems like they're more interested in AR than VR.
I wouldn't call their pseudo holodeck Illumiroom stuff AR, but you'll never know if they may launch some HUD style goggles once Google Glass is well received. What i dislike about Microsoft lately is that they turn good ideas into half assed products, like Kinect for example with it's input lag, or their tablets, consoles, OS..you name it. Since Bill gates retirement and Steve Ballmer making the decisions, they really suck bigtime.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Laserschwert »

Owen wrote:SSAO is completely separate, and it is also a fixed cost per pixel so splitting the screen still makes no difference. Same cost as 1280x800 at 60hz.
You're right, I guess... after all, all the channels used to create SSAO (like normals, Z, etc.) are just one 1280x800 frame, didn't think of that.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by rcblob »

I realize this may be slightly out of line of the recent topics in this thread, but if the schedule hasn't changed, the first few Rift dev kits should be rolling off the production line today :D

Thanks to BOLL for this page, showing the current date overlayed on the production schedule :)
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by oculusfan »

rcblob wrote:I realize this may be slightly out of line of the recent topics in this thread, but if the schedule hasn't changed, the first few Rift dev kits should be rolling off the production line today :D

Thanks to BOLL for this page, showing the current date overlayed on the production schedule :)
First I'd just like to say that's cool how it overlays the current day.

Second, I'd just like to ask what are the odds that a project like this stays perfectly on schedule? It seems unlikely but I don't really know.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by 2EyeGuy »

German wrote:120 hertz = 120 times per second = 120 frames per second. 50 frames per second doesn't evenly divide into 120 or 60. Both would have to re-draw(not insert) frames. The only difference is the amount of gimmicks they can cram into 120hz displays to handle the 70 frames of missing content.
You are wrong. You are confusing TVs with monitors. TVs make all sorts of lies and gimmicks about frame rate. A TV that claims to do hundreds of Hz actually only does 50Hz or 60Hz with gimmicks and can't handle any refresh rate above 60Hz.

But monitors do 120Hz without any gimmicks. The advantages of using a 120Hz display even when the game is running at 50fps are faster pixel switching time, lower latency between when a frame is rendered and when it starts being sent to the display, and lower latency between when a frame starts being sent to the display and when a frame finishes being sent to the display. So it's going to have lower latency for all parts of the pipeline.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Namielus »

I still cant see how it mathematically adds up showing 50hz content on a 60hz or 120hz display. Duplicate frames has to be evenly added, you cant just duplicate and randomly add frames to make it fill the 10 frames that has no actual content.

With VSYNC on, the framerate would go down from 50hz to 30hz and show every frame twice on a 60hz display or 4 times on a 120hz display.
On a 120hz display however, every frame can be displayed 3 times making it 40hz instead of 30.
You can buffer the frames, but theres no mathematical way of adding 10 frames to a 50hz timeline without problems.


"...Essentially this means that with double-buffered VSync, the framerate can only be equal to a discrete set of values equal to Refresh / N where N is some positive integer. That means if you're talking about 60Hz refresh rate, the only framerates you can get are 60, 30, 20, 15, 12, 10, etc etc. You can see the big gap between 60 and 30 there. Any framerate between 60 and 30 your video card would normally put out would get dropped to 30.."

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=928593 good thread aboug VSYNC and framerate issues here.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by MSat »

2EyeGuy wrote:
German wrote:120 hertz = 120 times per second = 120 frames per second. 50 frames per second doesn't evenly divide into 120 or 60. Both would have to re-draw(not insert) frames. The only difference is the amount of gimmicks they can cram into 120hz displays to handle the 70 frames of missing content.
You are wrong. You are confusing TVs with monitors. TVs make all sorts of lies and gimmicks about frame rate. A TV that claims to do hundreds of Hz actually only does 50Hz or 60Hz with gimmicks and can't handle any refresh rate above 60Hz.

But monitors do 120Hz without any gimmicks. The advantages of using a 120Hz display even when the game is running at 50fps are faster pixel switching time, lower latency between when a frame is rendered and when it starts being sent to the display, and lower latency between when a frame starts being sent to the display and when a frame finishes being sent to the display. So it's going to have lower latency for all parts of the pipeline.
Technically, some LCD panels in TVs do have refresh rates of 120 or 240hz, regardless of whether they can actually accept any source signals at that rate. Yes, creating virtual frames using interpolation is gimmicky, but it doesn't change the fact that the panels themselves operate at that rate.

Pixel switching time just indicates how long it takes between the time that the panel driver chip sends the signal to the pixel, and the pixel fully responds - the refresh rate doesn't necessarily play a role in that. Of course, a higher refresh rate monitor would need faster switching time than a slower monitor, but that doesn't mean a monitor with a lower refresh rate can't have just as fast switching times. But you are right about lower latency redraws of the screen at faster refreshes.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by MSat »

Namielus wrote:I still cant see how it mathematically adds up showing 50hz content on a 60hz or 120hz display. Duplicate frames has to be evenly added, you cant just duplicate and randomly add frames to make it fill the 10 frames that has no actual content.

With VSYNC on, the framerate would go down from 50hz to 30hz and show every frame twice on a 60hz display or 4 times on a 120hz display.
On a 120hz display however, every frame can be displayed 3 times making it 40hz instead of 30.
You can buffer the frames, but theres no mathematical way of adding 10 frames to a 50hz timeline without problems.


"...Essentially this means that with double-buffered VSync, the framerate can only be equal to a discrete set of values equal to Refresh / N where N is some positive integer. That means if you're talking about 60Hz refresh rate, the only framerates you can get are 60, 30, 20, 15, 12, 10, etc etc. You can see the big gap between 60 and 30 there. Any framerate between 60 and 30 your video card would normally put out would get dropped to 30.."

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=928593 good thread aboug VSYNC and framerate issues here.
At QuakeCon, John Carmack mentioned an OpenGL feature he pushed for where VSync would lock to the refresh rate as it normally does, but in case the game drops below that, it would tear instead of dropping down to 1/2 refresh.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Namielus »

Msat, yea that sounds good. If not its going to be absolutely crucial for developers to stay above 60 on a 60/120hz display for oculus rift.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

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tears are awful in 3D.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Randomoneh »

We all know pixel switching times are misrepresented by manufacturers.
What if pixel switching time is higher than refresh rate (ms)? For example, pixel switching time is 15 ms and image is redrawn every 8.33 ms (120 Hz)?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by TheHolyChicken »

MSat wrote:
Namielus wrote:I still cant see how it mathematically adds up showing 50hz content on a 60hz or 120hz display. Duplicate frames has to be evenly added, you cant just duplicate and randomly add frames to make it fill the 10 frames that has no actual content.

With VSYNC on, the framerate would go down from 50hz to 30hz and show every frame twice on a 60hz display or 4 times on a 120hz display.
On a 120hz display however, every frame can be displayed 3 times making it 40hz instead of 30.
You can buffer the frames, but theres no mathematical way of adding 10 frames to a 50hz timeline without problems.


"...Essentially this means that with double-buffered VSync, the framerate can only be equal to a discrete set of values equal to Refresh / N where N is some positive integer. That means if you're talking about 60Hz refresh rate, the only framerates you can get are 60, 30, 20, 15, 12, 10, etc etc. You can see the big gap between 60 and 30 there. Any framerate between 60 and 30 your video card would normally put out would get dropped to 30.."

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=928593 good thread aboug VSYNC and framerate issues here.
At QuakeCon, John Carmack mentioned an OpenGL feature he pushed for where VSync would lock to the refresh rate as it normally does, but in case the game drops below that, it would tear instead of dropping down to 1/2 refresh.
It's available right now with nvidia drivers, they called it "adaptive vsync". You can just go to the nvidia control panel and turn it on. For some reason it isn't the default /shrug.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by 2EyeGuy »

Namielus wrote:I still cant see how it mathematically adds up showing 50hz content on a 60hz or 120hz display. Duplicate frames has to be evenly added, you cant just duplicate and randomly add frames to make it fill the 10 frames that has no actual content.

With VSYNC on, the framerate would go down from 50hz to 30hz and show every frame twice on a 60hz display or 4 times on a 120hz display.
On a 120hz display however, every frame can be displayed 3 times making it 40hz instead of 30.
You can buffer the frames, but theres no mathematical way of adding 10 frames to a 50hz timeline without problems.


"...Essentially this means that with double-buffered VSync, the framerate can only be equal to a discrete set of values equal to Refresh / N where N is some positive integer. That means if you're talking about 60Hz refresh rate, the only framerates you can get are 60, 30, 20, 15, 12, 10, etc etc. You can see the big gap between 60 and 30 there. Any framerate between 60 and 30 your video card would normally put out would get dropped to 30.."

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=928593 good thread aboug VSYNC and framerate issues here.
That only happens if it's consistently rendering at 50 fps double buffered with vsync. If it's average 50fps because it's finishing some frames at 60fps and some at 40fps, then you wouldn't have that problem as much. You can also avoid that problem with triple buffering, but that may add latency depending on the implementation.

With a 120fps screen it obviously won't drop down to 30fps, it will drop down to 40fps instead (waiting for 1 extra refresh after the 2 and a bit refreshes it takes to draw the screen).
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by German »

2EyeGuy wrote:But monitors do 120Hz without any gimmicks. The advantages of using a 120Hz display even when the game is running at 50fps are faster pixel switching time, lower latency between when a frame is rendered and when it starts being sent to the display, and lower latency between when a frame starts being sent to the display and when a frame finishes being sent to the display. So it's going to have lower latency for all parts of the pipeline.
I'm not confusing anything, I was keeping it simple. There are very few differences between TVs and monitors these days. And if you look at the currently available displays(i.e. mobile) a Rift or Rift-like device would use, their specs are closer to TVs than low latency monitors.

My old 37" LCD TV has less than 4 ms of latency when you use the side ports(it's a feature, it cuts out all the processing functionality for lower latency) and that TV is 4 years old now. TV displays and monitors will eventually become the same thing now that they have standardized on 1080p. That's just a fact of reducing the costs to manufacture and with a limited number of major panel makers.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by DeeKej »

YES!!! Just got word that my uni will be purchasing a couple of Rifts. :D They're gonna place the order tomorrow, hopefully the estimated shipping date still applies~! This will be a fun summer. :3
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Post by Owen »

Adaptive vsync cnan also be implemented in DirectX 11.1 using the new present parameters.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

I was listening to this yesterday and realized hey, you can pretend he's singing about the Rift if you wanna. :wink:

[youtube-hd]www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2pt2-F2j2g[/youtube-hd]
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by zalo »

lol in the context of the rift it makes me feel a little depressed

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by unsilentwill »

This too. You know, if you wanna. :twisted:

[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKZT2u3g ... JQ&index=8[/youtube-hd]
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Additives »

unsilentwill wrote:This too. You know, if you wanna. :twisted:

[youtube-hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKZT2u3g ... JQ&index=8[/youtube-hd]
One of the most horrifying movie moments of my chil...wait, just one of the most horrifying movie moments.

Comes out of left field, caresses your brain with rusty iron nails (in the creepiest way possible) and then to make it all worse, the movie just seems to forget it happened. Like everyone on that boat didn't just flee screaming from the building, turn around and light it on fire.

That said, it's been significantly longer than a decade since I saw it, which would make me <11 at the time.
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Post by android78 »

Thanks unsilentwill for the trip down memory lane. That movie was fantastic. I hated the remake though.
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Post by 2EyeGuy »

Dycus wrote:I was listening to this yesterday and realized hey, you can pretend he's singing about the Rift if you wanna. :wink:
Why pretend? This calls for a photoshop!
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by mahler »

Are there any reaction videos or reviews from NON-gamers?
People who really don't like gaming, but were convinced to try this.
I remember Dycus telling about how he showed his family, but I don't know how they feel about ordinary video games.
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Re: I wonder if they've begun building kits yet?

Post by weisgarb »

According to the schedule Oculus released in their late November update, they were supposed to begin the small verification build this week and go into mass production next week. I wonder if they're still on track to meet their deadlines . . .
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by mscoder610 »

From the Oculus twitter account -
Sebastian ‏@sliderrr
@Oculus3D Any news on the manufacturing schedule? Everything as planned?

21 Jan Oculus ‏@Oculus3D
@sliderrr So far, so good! Waiting for our guys to get back so we can write up and official update.
6:07 PM - 21 Jan 13

https://twitter.com/Oculus3D
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Similar info, different articles. Unless I missed the link.
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Post by Dycus »

mahler wrote:Are there any reaction videos or reviews from NON-gamers?
People who really don't like gaming, but were convinced to try this.
I remember Dycus telling about how he showed his family, but I don't know how they feel about ordinary video games.
I showed about 15 family members - aunts, grandmas, grandpas, etc. Only 3-4 of the family members I showed really play video games. Everybody loved it, though. My grandma especially was excited about the idea of virtual tourism, and she said she'd definitely buy one if somebody made a program for that.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by MSat »

Dycus wrote:
mahler wrote:Are there any reaction videos or reviews from NON-gamers?
People who really don't like gaming, but were convinced to try this.
I remember Dycus telling about how he showed his family, but I don't know how they feel about ordinary video games.
I showed about 15 family members - aunts, grandmas, grandpas, etc. Only 3-4 of the family members I showed really play video games. Everybody loved it, though. My grandma especially was excited about the idea of virtual tourism, and she said she'd definitely buy one if somebody made a program for that.
That's a pretty interesting revelation. I wonder how many elderly people - particularly those living in retirement homes - that have no realistic way to go to relaxing locations such as some exotic oceanic resort, would appreciate it if they could at least virtually experience it.. Perhaps sit on a virtual beach reading a book via AR, or having a virtual person next to them reading the book for them. Given that vision tends to decline with age, ultra-high resolution may not even offer a substantial benefit to them. It's quite interesting to think about how far reaching VR really could be, with gamers being only a fraction of the pie.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by geekmaster »

MSat wrote:...
That's a pretty interesting revelation. I wonder how many elderly people - particularly those living in retirement homes - that have no realistic way to go to relaxing locations such as some exotic oceanic resort, would appreciate it if they could at least virtually experience it.. Perhaps sit on a virtual beach reading a book via AR, or having a virtual person next to them reading the book for them. Given that vision tends to decline with age, ultra-high resolution may not even offer a substantial benefit to them. It's quite interesting to think about how far reaching VR really could be, with gamers being only a fraction of the pie.
Just sitting back at the beach, watching the surf, with gulls flying around and palm trees swaying in the breeze... All in the comfort of your own home. Peaceful and relaxing, with no need for gratuitous violence there. :P
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