Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Kirito »

geekmaster wrote:107 in line. You guys are quick jumping in line for those preorders!

I hope it can be used to test latency on LCD panel monitor and DIY HMDs too. But with that "Rift eyecup" shape, perhaps not. We will see when more details are released.

It would be nice if the design allowed placing it directly against a display panel, or if necessary, snapping it off the eyecup to place it against a display panel, just like devices used for color calibration. It may be early enough in the design cycle to allow a design change so that this device may be used with more than just a Rift Dev Kit...
107 in line sweet i think its realy a must to have if you want to push vr games to the limit ^^
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by geekmaster »

Kirito wrote:107 in line sweet i think its realy a must to have if you want to push vr games to the limit ^^
I love a DIY approach, so building my own device would be fun. But if this has a reasonable price it is not worth my time to make my own. I would prefer to spend my hobby/development time creating new original stuff instead...
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by sth »

#28 in line. :D
I tried optimizing my game engine's latency before, but my attempts were limited by my inability to accurately measure the results.
For people who are writing their own rendering code, this could be a very, very useful tool.

However, I don't know how useful this would be for people using Unity or Unreal Engine (depends on what you can actually influence on these engines). Maybe someone at Oculus can elaborate on that.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by KBK »

I bought one as I can improve the hardware in ways and (methods/techniques) that people don't seem to believe (or understand) even exist. Yet I've been doing it for years. This is a method of proving it in what is, albeit, a very limited way. Image quality in all parameters is a complex affair. People see and use the hammers they are familiar with, and tend to not understand that other hammers may also exist. Bell curves are representative of norms, not realities for fall.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by TheHolyChicken »

GeraldT wrote:How important is that Latency Tester?
If it is really useful for me, then I guess I will order one. But a more practical part my brain says ... if you are happy with what you see through the Rift, then your game runs well enough.
I hope they will wait with production planing until all devs had a chance to evaluate for themselves how important such a tool is. I don't really want to order it now.
I would think that it would be pretty useful for any dev team looking to polish their game and cut out as much latency as possible. When you're dealing with amounts of time like this, it can be hard (or impossible) to actually tell one way or the other by eye if a change was positive or not. Tiny adjustments aren't negligible; many small changes combined can add up to a noticeable improvement, even if each individual change might be imperceptible.

It's like when you're at the opticians getting your eyes tested, and the optician is changing your test lenses...


Better, or worse?
- Um, kind of the same.

Better, or worse?
- Better! I think. Maybe. I think it's better?

-Better, or worse?
- Um, kind of the same. A bit worse, maybe?



Being able to look at a NUMBER and being able to immediately, and objectively, see the change will be very handy.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PasticheDonkey »

should really be doable in software like fps measurement is. i guess i'd just prefer to spend $100 elsewhere.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by KBK »

TheHolyChicken wrote:
GeraldT wrote:How important is that Latency Tester?
If it is really useful for me, then I guess I will order one. But a more practical part my brain says ... if you are happy with what you see through the Rift, then your game runs well enough.
I hope they will wait with production planing until all devs had a chance to evaluate for themselves how important such a tool is. I don't really want to order it now.
I would think that it would be pretty useful for any dev team looking to polish their game and cut out as much latency as possible. When you're dealing with amounts of time like this, it can be hard (or impossible) to actually tell one way or the other by eye if a change was positive or not. Tiny adjustments aren't negligible; many small changes combined can add up to a noticeable improvement, even if each individual change might be imperceptible.

It's like when you're at the opticians getting your eyes tested, and the optician is changing your test lenses...


Better, or worse?
- Um, kind of the same.

Better, or worse?
- Better! I think. Maybe. I think it's better?

-Better, or worse?
- Um, kind of the same. A bit worse, maybe?



Being able to look at a NUMBER and being able to immediately, and objectively, see the change will be very handy.
Of course, in the context of understanding it is a simple number that represents a convoluted and complex affair. :)

To get a number and then prove it's value, or meaning/context by alternative methods. A secondary path to validation of the given noted/measured number.

My wild guess from my programming days of yore, is that it is a very much needed tool for checking software changes. As one change to gain better latency can be undone or even worsened by stacking another software change into the engine. That single cause analysis can be done via this tool, which is hypercritical when it comes to figuring out exactly where problems or solutions are coming from and going to.

I'd go as far as to say that if one is going to be doing programming with the rift in mind, specifically team created software, that this tool is essential for being able to unwind a problem (or solution) to it's actual source point. You have to be able to make it to some form of single cause analysis. Without it, you'd be treading water in a vast ocean of proposed problems and proposed solutions with no known source or application. Basically swimming in a complex mess 'o things... with no idea which direction to swim in.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by GeraldT »

TheHolyChicken wrote: I would think that it would be pretty useful for any dev team looking to polish their game and cut out as much latency as possible. When you're dealing with amounts of time like this, it can be hard (or impossible) to actually tell one way or the other by eye if a change was positive or not. Tiny adjustments aren't negligible; many small changes combined can add up to a noticeable improvement, even if each individual change might be imperceptible.
This is a good point - but I stay unconvinced that it is superior to what I can do by other means of analyzing it. I can totally see something like this being helpful to hardware development, but I can already get information on average rendering time etc. min, max ... I don't really understand what benefit I can get from that device. If I want to optimize my software I don't need one number - i need numbers that i can relate to what my programming did at the time. Or maybe (quite likely) I just don't get it yet ;) .
Most important to me though is what sth says:
sth wrote: I tried optimizing my game engine's latency before, but my attempts were limited by my inability to accurately measure the results.
For people who are writing their own rendering code, this could be a very, very useful tool.

However, I don't know how useful this would be for people using Unity or Unreal Engine (depends on what you can actually influence on these engines). Maybe someone at Oculus can elaborate on that.
I am new to this part of game developing and have created business applications in the past - the main reason I use Unity is because I can skip a lot of engine optimization and only need to optimize the game logic to get better results. Stuff like prerendering frames are things I don't even know how to change and I hope that the solution Oculus offers with the SDK will take care of that for me.

For games that are developed by big companies it certainly makes sense, but for a small indie developer that works with Unity I need convincing before spending money of my tight budget on this.
Last edited by GeraldT on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by sth »

TheHolyChicken wrote:When you're dealing with amounts of time like this, it can be hard (or impossible) to actually tell one way or the other by eye if a change was positive or not. Tiny adjustments aren't negligible; many small changes combined can add up to a noticeable improvement, even if each individual change might be imperceptible.
Exactly!

Anyway, this is definitely a niche product for a small group of developers. Basically: When you need it, you know that you need it. ;)
And maybe in the future we'll have better tools for measuring latency in software (at least to the point where the image is scanned out of VRAM), but right now the options in that area are pretty limited. A device like the Oculus Latency Tester seems to me like a pretty pragmatic approach to the problem (of course it has the added benefit of measuring the actual panel latency as well, but that is not very important to software developers because it's a thing we can't influence).
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Mystify »

A large portion of my job is making changes that may or may not have a small positive influence. Getting hard numbers to measure the impact of your change is immensely useful for that. "oh, I shaved off .1ms" is much better than "I made a change, can I tell?"
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by geekmaster »

KBK wrote:I bought one as I can improve the hardware in ways and (methods/techniques) that people don't seem to believe (or understand) even exist. Yet I've been doing it for years. This is a method of proving it in what is, albeit, a very limited way. Image quality in all parameters is a complex affair. People see and use the hammers they are familiar with, and tend to not understand that other hammers may also exist. Bell curves are representative of norms, not realities for fall.
Umm... Ahh... Well... Yeah... Back in your old "notorious comfort zone" I see...

Do you have any actual FACTS (such as evidence/references/scientific theories/detailed proposals/diagrams) to support your bold claims that YOU can improve the newly proposed Oculus Latency Tester (without actually knowing ANYTHING about it or any POTENTIAL defects that need to be improved)? Will your proposed improvements (if any) be cost effective for a marketable product? Or just another "pipe dream"?

I do not know where you came to the strange idea that Oculus staff members have a preference for hammers, or why you suggest that they use different hammers, when they have other much more useful tools at their disposal.

We were starting to actually understand your posts and your contributions of useful information. We miss that. Please come back from the "deep end" and play nice with us "intellectual children" (from your lofty point of view).

EDIT: Somebody needed to say it. Now it is out there. Let's hope it helps.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Kirito »

every tool that helps vr is worth it for sure, the latency tester is a masterpiece, a friend told me the university of belgium will order 3 of them 8-)
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by KBK »

Geek:

My point of phrasing that post that way... was to have you come along and make an attempt to tell me how to express myself.

And at that point, to tell you to keep your opinions on my English usage to yourself.

Your comfort zone is yours, I don't give you a hard time about it. No point, right?

Stop projecting. :)
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by zalo »

Were you saying that you could make the existing screen refresh faster and then you could show us with readings from the latency tester?

If that is possible, I'm sure Palmer and co. would be very interested in your unique talents.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by geekmaster »

KBK wrote:Geek:

My point of phrasing that post that way... was to have you come along and make an attempt to tell me how to express myself.

And at that point, to tell you to keep your opinions on my English usage to yourself.

Your comfort zone is yours, I don't give you a hard time about it. No point, right?

Stop projecting. :)
Are you claiming that your post was intended as bait, so you could troll me, and I took your bait as you had intended? If so, not many people actually identify themselves as trolls around here. Bold move...

Your rebuttal completely missed its mark. Your English was FINE. Your grammar was fine. Your choice of terminology was fine. Perfectly clear. Why do you claim that I challenged your "English usage"? Where is the evidence (i.e. quotes from my post) to support that claim?

It was the unsupported boastful claims and insinuations about Oculus lack of optimal design or quality that I brought into question. The CONTENT of your post was similar to those posts that earned you such a notorious reputation on many forums. I (and others) are HAPPY to read your recent thoughtful and useful posts, which coincidentally lacked unsupported boastful claims. We wish you would continue in that "not so self-aggrandizing" style that we can appreciate here.

In other words, along with bold claims, please supply some bold evidence.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by squibbfire »

GeraldT wrote:How important is that Latency Tester?
If it is really useful for me, then I guess I will order one. But a more practical part my brain says ... if you are happy with what you see through the Rift, then your game runs well enough.
I hope they will wait with production planing until all devs had a chance to evaluate for themselves how important such a tool is. I don't really want to order it now.
It would good for some raw data for comparative analysis of different systems running the same game. It would be nice for a developer who has a developer kit for a PS4 and xbox 720 and use the latency to get data to compare latency if he is developing a game for both systems.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by geekmaster »

zalo wrote:Were you saying that you could make the existing screen refresh faster and then you could show us with readings from the latency tester?

If that is possible, I'm sure Palmer and co. would be very interested in your unique talents.
Ahh, your post gave me an alternative viewpoint for KBK's post, in which case I may have misunderstood WHICH hardware KBK claimed he could improve beyond what others believe is possible. I thought he was talking about improvements to the Oculus Latency Tester, which was the actual subject of his post. If he was talking about all of the equipment EXCEPT the latency tester, then perhaps his claims ARE justified. There is a LOT of room for improvement as known (and unknown) technologies become affordable. However, that could have been stated in a way that sounded less boastful and less likely to raise any challenges. If I did indeed misinterpret WHICH hardware KBK was talking about, I am sorry...

However, on rereading the original post, it still looks to me like he is claiming he can improve the Oculus Latency Tester. So, which is it KBK?

The post DID sound boastful, after all. You can expect such posts to be challenged in due course. But in this case my challenge was about CONTENT and not English usage or grammar, which have vastly improved in your recent posts (including the one in question, other than not specifying exactly which hardware can be improved).
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by geekmaster »

Okay, KBK, getting back on topic, I really DO want to know some useful suggestions about how you plan to improve latency issues for us.

I hope it is not all super-secret so you can actually share something useful here. I like useful content and ideas as much as the next guy here.

Please give us something useful about your latency improvement suggestions (or was in Latency Tester improvements?), that we can wrap our heads around. Please? Or was it just a tease?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

Unless you're a very serious developer working on game engines, I'd ask you not to pre-order a latency tester. Like the update said, they are limited, yes, but please don't go buying one as a collector's item or something. You gotta let the people that actually need them get one... :P
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by GeraldT »

Dycus wrote:Unless you're a very serious developer working on game engines, I'd ask you not to pre-order a latency tester. Like the update said, they are limited, yes, but please don't go buying one as a collector's item or something. You gotta let the people that actually need them get one... :P
Thank you - this is all I wanted to hear!! Not working on an engine - better let the good folks at Unity order them! ;)
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by geekmaster »

Dycus wrote:Unless you're a very serious developer working on game engines, I'd ask you not to pre-order a latency tester. Like the update said, they are limited, yes, but please don't go buying one as a collector's item or something. You gotta let the people that actually need them get one... :P
Are there PC-based software dependencies, or is it a self-contained standalone device?

How does it sense the latency trigger event, that starts the timing chain?

Or does it OUTPUT a timing trigger to be used with a controller device (i.e. enumate as a USB HID device)?

Can I use it to measure latency when driving an Oculus Rift Dev Kit from a Raspberry Pi (which I *DO* intend to do)?

I really do want to see what interesting and fun things can come from an ultra-portable little PC like the RasPi with a Rift HMD -- certainly not Half Life 2 (or even close), but fun things people will want to experience anyway just for the fun of it.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dakor »

Beeing an Hobbiest Game Developper who still studies Computer Science, I can't afford the Latency tester right now. (To less use/coast ratio for me)
I'm hoping for the Community to help people like me and to function as Beta Testers and there might be one who can test the latency of my work.
Since i'm not developing an AAA game that will be enough i guess.

[EDIT] Thank you Dycus this is what I hoped for. :)
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Parallaxis »

GeraldT wrote:How important is that Latency Tester?
If it is really useful for me, then I guess I will order one. But a more practical part my brain says ... if you are happy with what you see through the Rift, then your game runs well enough.
I hope they will wait with production planing until all devs had a chance to evaluate for themselves how important such a tool is. I don't really want to order it now.
If you made your own game-engine and made several hundred different optimizations, it would be very hard to know if each one made a difference in latency, but all together they would probably make a very noticeable difference with OR.

So without the latency tester, it would be like working ind blindness.

The latency tester is an incredible important and maybe game changing tool in this early phase of next gen VR.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Kirito »

Dycus wrote:Unless you're a very serious developer working on game engines, I'd ask you not to pre-order a latency tester. Like the update said, they are limited, yes, but please don't go buying one as a collector's item or something. You gotta let the people that actually need them get one... :P
haha dycus ur lucky if i was 18+ and had the money i would buy it as a collectors item :p

its not my fault the stuff oculus creates looks so epic :p
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Kirito »

Parallaxis wrote:
GeraldT wrote:How important is that Latency Tester?
If it is really useful for me, then I guess I will order one. But a more practical part my brain says ... if you are happy with what you see through the Rift, then your game runs well enough.
I hope they will wait with production planing until all devs had a chance to evaluate for themselves how important such a tool is. I don't really want to order it now.
If you made your own game-engine and made several hundred different optimizations, it would be very hard to know if each one made a difference in latency, but all together they would probably make a very noticeable difference with OR.

So without the latency tester, it would be like working ind blindness.

The latency tester is an incredible important and maybe game changing tool in this early phase of next gen VR
.
+1 thats exactly what i mean :p
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

geekmaster wrote:
Dycus wrote:Unless you're a very serious developer working on game engines, I'd ask you not to pre-order a latency tester. Like the update said, they are limited, yes, but please don't go buying one as a collector's item or something. You gotta let the people that actually need them get one... :P
Are there PC-based software dependencies, or is it a self-contained standalone device?

How does it sense the latency trigger event, that starts the timing chain?

Or does it OUTPUT a timing trigger to be used with a controller device (i.e. enumate as a USB HID device)?

Can I use it to measure latency when driving an Oculus Rift Dev Kit from a Raspberry Pi (which I *DO* intend to do)?

I really do want to see what interesting and fun things can come from an ultra-portable little PC like the RasPi with a Rift HMD -- certainly not Half Life 2 (or even close), but fun things people will want to experience anyway just for the fun of it.
The dependency is in the game - you'll add a bit of code that flashes the screen under the sensor when you press the button. Easy stuff.

So yeah, you could use it on a Pi. I've used one before and they're awfully underpowered, though, unless you offload just about everything to the GPU. I wish you luck in getting anything more than a small room working well! Little techdemos would probably be best. I'm sure you can get something running, though. Do you have a Pi yet?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Owen »

Optimization without measurement is generally a waste of time, and often counterproductive. Building an engine without this would be pretty hard, but if you are using an out of the box Unity or UDK implementation then the SDK probably handles everything as well as can be expected for you.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Kirito »

guys whats the number of first in line order atm for the latency checker?

( a friend of mine is thinking about ordering one )
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Post by Diorama »

Is that 'friend' you by any chance, Kirito? ;)
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by geekmaster »

Dycus wrote:The dependency is in the game - you'll add a bit of code that flashes the screen under the sensor when you press the button. Easy stuff.

So yeah, you could use it on a Pi. I've used one before and they're awfully underpowered, though, unless you offload just about everything to the GPU. I wish you luck in getting anything more than a small room working well! Little techdemos would probably be best. I'm sure you can get something running, though. Do you have a Pi yet?
I have "too many" dev kits of all flavors, but not a Pi yet. I will order one soon. A Pi is sort of a "big boy's arduino" with the HDMI output and all that.
:D
One thing I was thinking was to use a client/server app on my Nexus 7, using the RasPi as an HDMI display device. That is where my idea of using head-tracked PTZ (pan/tilt/zoom) comes in, where the Pi lets the image track with the head during little head movements to maintain immersion, while the Nexus 7 computes the next frame.

I think that decoupling head tracking from frame rendering is VERY IMPORTANT, so that the visual image maintains very low latency with respect to head tracking, and the world can update around you as slowly as it needs to for the available hardware and power consumption budget.

Even a smartphone may be good enough to render useful interesting content at at acceptable update rate (perhaps 10 FPS or better), while the RasPi keeps the immersion going with 60 FPS PTZ.

I have been pushing this decoupling idea here for awhile, where PTZ can be a useful substitution for limited motion while waiting for slower frame updates from the render pipeline and communications channels.

Regarding underpowered, a Pi has WAY MORE power than the old 'puters like the Atari ST or Amiga, and there were some interesting and immersive games on those. The Pi should be able to draw LOTS of extra pixels. Worst case, even an Arduino should be able to supply simple but immersive wire-frame mazes (with hidden-line removal) and perhaps even some intersting procedural textures as well. You just need to remember the clever tricks used in the olden days (or dig out those "antique computer books").

One of my bigger interests is playing with some of my extensive robotic parts collection, to build some sort of exoskeleton haptic feedback suit. That would be a "killer" app -- oops, maybe a poor choice of words on that one.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by KBK »

Hi Geek, here's the problem.

I spent a near lifetime looking down roads that are not considered 'normal' engineering. I did things that way as when I was a kid, early teens, I saw millions of people walking down the road toward the same destination, all working with the same box of tools.

Somehow, from that, new better answers where supposed to emerge. Noting that millions went to the same mount and prayed at the same temple, with nothing new emerging - I went the path less traveled. Which is to walk off the path, into the darkness, places where conventionality and norms do not travel. A sacrifice move, over that of the comfort of being and working with others.

It's that old saw about the drunk looking for his keys under the lampost, even though he lost his keys elsewhere. The more impossible the problem to solve, the more basic the mistake in the formation of the question.

What I'm saying is that I expended my series of questions to outside the normal engineering parameters. For example, if a PC is slow, just crank the clock! Not so fast...not that simple. How about, what is the complex electrostatic, electromagnetic, and mechanical aspects of the clock? What is it's fundamental atomic function and how does this address, or work with respect to the whole? Can one design a better piezoelectric atomic lattice? Or is it even necessary to remain in that realm of design? Then, cascade up from there, into the implementation and use of the clock. And then the rest of the PC's materials and design functions, at the basic level.

When I look at the HMD, I'm looking at it with respect to it's basic physics. But I don't look at it in conventional terms, or conventional expression. That you don't need to be Richard Feynman to understand or manipulate atomic structure or manipulate the fundamentals of complex atomic integration (alloys and so on).

The point is that all of these things have been executed or used in the making of the HMD, the alloy, the plastic, and so on (whatever the item may be) but is it the ultimate expression of the device?

I'm self taught, for the most part, as there is no school if one want to take the unconventional path. Sure, I've taken the courses. about 5 years worth, but I could not be bothered to go for the degree, the paper to hang on the wall. It wasn't important to me.

My biz partner has about 12 years of being a university junkie, across multiple disciplines. My patent lawyer spent about 15+ years in German technical schools, and ended up teaching at Germany's most prestigious polytechnic institute. Some of the things that come out of my mouth, freak him out.

What I'm saying, is that I can keep up with this, and more, but I don't spit it out in 'conventional' terms.

One day, when working with the considerations of light and it's integration with atomic structure, I decided to make a phone call, to try and clear up a small bit I was having a it of trouble with. I had to know if I was right in my suppositions, or wrong. I needed another opinion, one that was well informed.

I called this place, and they put the owner and driving force of the company on the phone. He just happened to be in on that day.

http://dsclabs.com/about_dsc.htm

I told him I had a problem. In order to shorten things up, I explained what I knew of the situation, what the textbooks said, and where the textbooks ended...and then moved into being wrong. Then I explained the lore that the top of the group had figured out... that the conventional physics had not labeled, described, or noted even existed. Then I explained the workarounds that the top in the trade used to get past this. Then I explained my problem. He agreed with me on all parts of my story and explained how he managed to get past this particular problem. How he understood it. That our understandings were complimentary. Even though both rested outside of convention. It is the lore and the edge of things, the things off the beaten path... that drives into the emergent norm of conventionality. He used that understanding to make the world's finest color references, I used it in the video screen market. Both our understandings are valuable as marketing concerns, so they are not disseminated. If dissemination is attempted, both of us might end up with our heads on the chopping block for daring to challenge conventionality. No mystery at all, it is just that people get scared when their basis is challenged. They lose logic and get emotional. Others would use it to trash his own company, or my efforts with video screens, so it is ill advised to do so.

When you want to get to something that is outside of the box, then you have to be prepared to tip the box over, and get out of it. Conventionality can take a hike, it serves no purpose in that scenario. Even though all those still in the box will treat it as a life raft and slam you for trying to get out if it. It's almost a no win situation, but I keep trying, as do others.

I tested this on the AVS forum, for a period of a year plus. I even said it out loud. I said that I'm being treated like crap right now, and I'll give some stuff away and suddenly I'll be the hero. for a while. I gave away about 9-10 things that could be patented, and two or three even became commercial endeavors, or gobbled up by companies that existed at the time. I fed my own competition and they used it against me. But I was the man on the forum!

Then, I clammed up again, and over a period of a few months.. I was back to being accused as being the egotistical a-hole. But I was not. I was simply saying, hey, look outside of convention. Find a different path. Not that the directions that one might be pursuing won't work as a form of improvement, but that there are other ways. Other potentials for improvement. In ways that are important for the human eye, not just a simple case of a brute force and ignorance hammer of 'speeding up the PC'.

The issue is that they can be unconventional solutions to problems, problems that people do not acknowledge the existence of. I try to eek out a living in this area. Which is difficult ..as it is off the beaten path. For me, it is a case of derision and constant beatings.

It's like this: "When you're one step ahead of the crowd, you're a genius. When you're two steps ahead, you're a crackpot." When people can't make the leap, they hammer you.

If I have anything in that area that I can share, it has to put food on the table. I'm not willing to give it to a major corporation, I'd like the guys at Oculus to have it... or to have them slap me on the forehead for seeming like a crackpot. :P

In essence, I'll go as far as saying that the basic engineering analysis of the gear is fine, but there are other paths to making it a better device.
Last edited by KBK on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Intelligence... is not inherent - it is a point in understanding. Q: When does a fire become self sustaining?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by jaybug »

:?
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PasticheDonkey
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PasticheDonkey »

that much text to say he walks the road less travelled.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by zeroxygen »

KBK,
I haven't seen any of your work but I have doubt its anything earth-shattering otherwise you wouldn't need to openly prove your genius to yourself by talking about it on a forum; you certainly aren't proving it to anyone else. You constantly going on about how you think on higher levels than everybody else is distracting to the topic. Cant you simply state your reasons for doing things without saying (yet again) that its because you are special and you have been special for a very long time?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by TheHolyChicken »

I'm special too (my Mum told me so)
Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by geekmaster »

KBK wrote:Hi Geek, here's the problem. ... If I have anything in that area that I can share, it has to put food on the table. I'm not willing to give it to a major corporation, I'd like the guys at Oculus to have it... or to have them slap me on the forehead for seeming like a crackpot. :P
I agree with you for the most part. I have been there, but I try to stay only one step ahead of the pack, and when I leap a chasm, I build a bridge and put up signs.

Another important point about being a leader is to see which way the mob is heading and race over there to stay in front. Then you can guide them slowly with pace and pacing (NLP techniques). If you turn or accelerate too quickly, they will not follow, and you are not a leader.

Many inventions are only recognized when the time is right for them. Getting too far ahead or too far off the beaten path will get you criticized, ostracized, or burned at the stake, or at least ignored.

Regarding the value of ideas, I give everything away, and I still have more than I know what to do with. Like information, ideas are cheap. The only thing that counts is WHAT YOU DO with them. Sharing them is one good thing you can do. There have been others who have literally made millions of dollars on my ideas. That does not bother me. In fact, it is a source of pride. Money has never been important to me. It is just too artificial. As long as I can play with fun tech toys and get paid enough to survive while doing it, I am happy. It would be nice to have health care though. And a new younger body would be nice too. And a flying car. And a direct neural interface. And god-like powers. And eternal life. And an island. And a solid gold aircraft carrier. And a planet-sized supercomputer. And, and, and... Oh, wait, I do not need all those things. People who have them are not happy. I just want to play with fun tech toys and get paid enough to survive while doing it...

But you really should give some of your ideas away. If you are truly smart, there will always be more to come, and practice makes perfect...
Last edited by geekmaster on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by KBK »

PasticheDonkey wrote:that much text to say he walks the road less travelled.
It would be 20 more posts if I didn't ...and it would turn out much worse. It would go sideways. I can see that it is still tying to do so. I've done my best to cover my end of the communication.

Holy: and your mum was right, just like all mums are. (that is not sarcasm or intended in that direction at all)
Intelligence... is not inherent - it is a point in understanding. Q: When does a fire become self sustaining?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by geekmaster »

TheHolyChicken wrote:I'm special too (my Mum told me so)
Are you special enough to receive "special education"? :D
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Mystify »

"Inside the box" has been rigorously tested and proven. "outside the box" has not. There is no inherent value to being outside of the box, unless you actually find something worthwhile out there. If you do, you need to provide sufficient evidence that it is worthwhile, and then add it to the box. Saying you have something without being willing to substantiate it puts you in the same category as snake oil salesmen. There are tons of people claiming to have something "outside of the box" while marketing lies and delusions. So, either substantiate your claims, or don't make them. Certainty don't act like you are better than everyone else for being outside of the box. If you are doing something better than everyone else, then that should speak for itself. If you are not willing to show it, then it may as well not exist. We are rational people here, we require evidence to back up claims, and claims of evidence don't cut it.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PasticheDonkey »

everyone's special. but some are "special" special. but KBK isn't that kind of special.
Last edited by PasticheDonkey on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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