Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

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Volte6
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Volte6 »

On the internet, there is no action you can take that won't upset somebody.

I have to say, given the complexy of this project, and the moving pieces they are compensating for, this is a very impressive turn around start-to-end.

Although the message came out initially as "Good news everyone, I have some disappointing news!", i think the update was overall very positive, and shows that this isn't just a kickstarter where your money went to the void and was never heard from again (a very real possibility for other projects).

I have little doubt they were seeing where they could trim these dates, and how they could push the schedule harder (and what costs that would result in), and physically test the final result before committing to any specific timeline. Remember, the intial kickstarter reward was an estimated delivery only, and was based on a much lower target number of units. At the scale it has to operate now everything changes.

Rather than a constant stream of "looks like more delays", "wait we trimmed some time off", "looks like it's delayed a little farther though now", I'm sure it was a far better idea for them to wait until they knew for certain what the date would be, instead of taking everyone on a roller coaster of disappointment.

I love every one of these updates, seeing the progress and the hurdles the fledgling company has to overcome to bring these dreams to reality.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

Unclebob wrote:Dycus

thank you for replying. It does not wash really though does it? eh?

Do you really expect people to believe that you drummed up to a factory in china on November the 11th and said "can you make this" and they said "ok then".

So you gave them some money and went away? No contracts, no timescales, no delivery dates - nothing.

And then got a phone call last Monday from them saying "But you did realise we have to make molds, fine tuning, testing, verification etc etc and oh we have a national holiday as well in ...Feb .... so we are looking at March April time"

Sorry mate. As soon as you guys knew the timescales you should have told us and you must have known them before. Its a commercial impossibility you didn't.

No one would have cared. No one actually does care really. Everyone wants the Rift to be a success.

But no one believes that you could not have known earlier and could not have let us know.
Oh for goodness' sake. *facepalm*
Working with factories and making a working, shippable product takes a LONG time. Do you honestly think we haven't been working with them, or that we haven't been trying to avoid delays?

We couldn't say anything sooner because we actually didn't know. When it comes down to it, a delay of one or two days does mean a delay of months because of the Chinese New Year. Palmer's recent trip to China was to try and see if we could get everything done before the New Year. We couldn't, as we found.

I'm not sure why Oculus didn't say anything earlier, but we actually didn't know until just a week or two ago.
From what you've seen of us, do you think we're a malicious company? Have you seen Palmer's speeches and keynotes, how passionate we are about VR? We're trying to ship this product. We're just as excited as you are.

Besides, we are shipping. No doubt about that, this dev kit is 100% gonna happen, unless the apocalypse comes or something. It's just gonna be a bit longer. :/


By the way, my word isn't the word of the company, it's just mine. And I may not be posting here quite as often any more. And I'm not allowed to say anything about features unless there's been an official announcement... Brant is right, I do have a big mouth.
Last edited by Dycus on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Aabel »

The delay is expected so no shock there. Very excited about the new tracker, the hillcrest would have been OK, but honestly OK is not good enough. More details about the tracker especially for positional tracking would be great. Thanks for the Unreal video that was a good morale boost for my wife and I.

Keep up the good work team Oculus! I look forward to hearing more about the finalized specs.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by tmek »

To Palmer/Oculus, The prototype looks great and I look forward to getting my hands on these to start experimenting.

Could someone explain what the 9 degrees of freedom are? I'm only familiar with the six degrees of freedom.

Does this updated sensor mean that we'll have 1 to 1 translation head tracking now? So that users will be able to accurately peer around corners, doorways and over ledges by moving their head? If so what is the range and how accurate would this be? Would jumping in place be able to cause your character to jump the same height in the game be viable using translation sensing?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by rmcclelland »

@tmek This has been discussed a number of times before but...

This is a case of different nomenclatures in different industries:
In rigid body mechanics, the location and orientation of a object (your head for instance) can be described with 6 parameters or 6 Degrees of Freedom (dof), for instance three Cartesian coordinates x,z,y and rotations about the three Cartesian axis rx, ry, rz. These can then be mapped to virtual space to fully define your view in the simulation.

For Inertial Measurement Units (IMUs) 9 DOF really means 9 channels: 3 axis accelerometers, 3 axis gyroscopes, 3 axis magnetometers. However, these 9 channels can only define 3 true degrees of freedom rx, ry, rz; basically the accelerometers and magnetometers just provide absolute references to the Cartesian system for drift correction. You can get translations by integrating acceleration twice, but sensor noise leads to unacceptable drift.

At least that is my understanding of the issue...
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by MSat »

tmek wrote:To Palmer/Oculus, The prototype looks great and I look forward to getting my hands on these to start experimenting.

Could someone explain what the 9 degrees of freedom are? I'm only familiar with the six degrees of freedom.

Does this updated sensor mean that we'll have 1 to 1 translation head tracking now? So that users will be able to accurately peer around corners, doorways and over ledges by moving their head? If so what is the range and how accurate would this be? Would jumping in place be able to cause your character to jump the same height in the game be viable using translation sensing?
It's been discussed quite a bit here, but essentially "9DOF" is marketing speak typically referring to a motion sensing device that detects accelerations (via accelerometer), rotations (via gyroscope), and orientation (via magnetometer), each in 3 dimensions, for a total of "9DOF" when added up. Of course, all of their data is interrelated, so their data is combined by a process called "sensor fusion" which makes the output more robust than what a sensor would be able to provide on its own.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Modab »

I am sorry I had to post a negative comment about this amazing project, but I stand by all my very specific claims. Weeks go by on this project without any substantial interaction with the community. I fully expected there to be delays. However, to literally not even *suggest* there might be a delay up to 2 days before the first wave is supposed to already receive them is unprofessional. It was the Oculus team's decision to not comment on anything, and provide little information into the workings of the company. Some of this can be attributed to an NDA. The rest is just... I simply don't understand why. Palmer talked early on in the project about how he knew about all the pitfalls of big manufacturing projects like these, and how he had everything worked out. When asked point blank he was always confident in meeting shipping dates. He never said anything to disabuse anyone of these notions. Read through the old posts. He said it would be different from other Kickstarters.

I suspect that the project has been getting further behind for weeks. That happens when you find out you can't order the parts you want. That happens when you decide to make your own sensor (which I'm excited for!) I am sure there will be other delays. I am sure there will be other changes. I have no idea why Oculus did not see fit to inform anyone until today of these issues, and pretend everything was running smoothly. I feel that it does not represent the company well now, and it has certainly taught me not to trust any of their future promises.

I have been lurking in this forum since I saw Carmack talk about the system. I apologize that I did not feel the need to post until now. I assure you I have been reading all the posts, and when I get my hands on a system and an SDK I will be developing something :-)

To summarize my position:
I don't care if the project gets delayed
I don't care if the specifications have to change to meet reality
I think Palmer Luckey is awesome for doing this
I don't think the Oculus Team is my bitch (GRRM reference :-) )
I do think that the Oculus Team should respect the people who gave them money and talk with them on a weekly basis about the very challenging development process.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by hurdlejade »

Image

is this a front camera?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by mahler »

hurdlejade wrote:is this a front camera?
Blue LED

Like in the logo:

Image
Last edited by mahler on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by bamdastard »

The delay is a huge bummer, but if it means we might be able to swap in a higher resolution display at a later date I'm all for it. It's too bad we can't leverage any DIY 3d printers to start cranking out these housings right away though.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dakor »

hurdlejade wrote: is this a front camera?
I believe it's just a blue LED. Like:
Image
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Unclebob »

Dycus wrote: Oh for goodness' sake. *facepalm*
Working with factories and making a working, shippable product takes a LONG time. Do you honestly think we haven't been working with them, or that we haven't been trying to avoid delays?

We couldn't say anything sooner because we actually didn't know. When it comes down to it, a delay of one or two days does mean a delay of months because of the Chinese New Year. Palmer's recent trip to China was to try and see if we could get everything done before the New Year. We couldn't, as we found.

I'm not sure why Oculus didn't say anything earlier, but we actually didn't know until just a week or two ago.
From what you've seen of us, do you think we're a malicious company? Have you seen Palmer's speeches and keynotes, how passionate we are about VR? We're trying to ship this product. We're just as excited as you are.

Besides, we are shipping. No doubt about that, this dev kit is 100% gonna happen, unless the apocalypse comes or something. It's just gonna be a bit longer. :/

By the way, my word isn't the word of the company, it's just mine. And I may not be posting here quite as often any more. And I'm not allowed to say anything about features unless there's been an official announcement... Brant is right, I do have a big mouth.
Dycus

thanks for replying again mate. I hope you don't get into trouble.

Just because something has been poorly handled does not mean that Oculus are a malicious company.

Its one of those things.

Grab a burger, have a shake....kick back grab a latte whatever floats your boat.

Learn from the situation and move on.

UB
UB

Don't try this at home folks....
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by MSat »

hurdlejade wrote:Image

is this a front camera?

Unlikely.. It actually looks like a blue led more than ever.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Bretspot »

mahler wrote:
hurdlejade wrote:is this a front camera?
Blue LED
It's totally a camera for pass-through (IMHO)

Look at the little 'Handle' for changing its focus. I think it will be primarily so you don't have to rip the thing off your head to find your joystick or controller.

Too bad its not a stereo pair though eh? :) Maybe in the consumer version....
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

Modab wrote:I suspect that the project has been getting further behind for weeks.
See my previous post - we actually didn't know until about a week ago.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by brantlew »

mahler wrote:
hurdlejade wrote:is this a front camera?
Blue LED
Like in the logo: Image
It doesn't seem to make sense as an LED. Hard to fathom that they would add extra cost and flourishes to a prototype kit, so it would seem to need some purpose. But a single LED is no good for positional tracking. You need at least three for that.
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Post by druidsbane »

Why would you need a handle to focus? Most small cameras use software for auto-focusing right?
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by mahler »

brantlew wrote:It doesn't seem to make sense as an LED. Hard to fathom that they would add extra cost and flourishes to a prototype kit, so it would seem to need some purpose. But a single LED is no good for positional tracking. You need at least three for that.
Like I said a few pages back. I suspect that for now it will just serve as a placeholder for the actual CMOS camera could be added to the consumer version.
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Post by Gooberverse »

It definitely looks like a camera to me. It is recessed like a camera. I think an LED would probably look more convex. It's interesting to speculate in any case!

Now Oculus just needs to revise its logo to include 2 eyes. That way we can get stereo pass-through for the consumer hardware. :D
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by mahler »

Gooberverse wrote:Now Oculus just needs to revise its logo to include 2 eyes. That way we can get stereo pass-through for the consumer hardware. :D
The amount of cameras will depend on your MTBS3D status. You'll get only one if you're lucky and I'll get two, but they will be fitted too close together.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by ftarnogol »

And to all those that claim to have INVESTED in Oculus... you have BACKED a project and DONATED your money. You are not an investor. You are an enabler. Thus, Oculus doesn't owe you anything except for the gear that you purchased.

And yes, I was a little bummed down about the delay (last night I dreamed that I woke up and found the Dev Kit under my bed... loved the feeling) but I'm a mature person and also understand that Oculus is threading off the beaten path and this is Palmer's first contact with the mass manufacturing world... can you blame the guy? Could you do better? Probably not, as I haven't seen you in the news pitching any revolutionary tech.
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Post by DolAtoR »

I agree with the others, to me it also looks like a camera. Especially the writing on the rim of the 'lens' - why would that be there if it was a LED?

Anyway, time will tell – no need to get into an argument about all that :)

@dycus: You shouldn't feel bad and please don't stop posting here. After reading your comments again, all you really said was that there will be an update, the rest was a mix of hope and anticipation from our side – which is usual when people are waiting for something. But if I may give you a hint as someone coming from a community management background: Never give out any dates, like when you said "before wednesday". That can only backfire. "In the next few days" would have been more than sufficient and would have kept the hype down.

Obviously, when you have only good news, than hype is more than appropriate. But a 'mixed' update like this one needs some delicate communication ;)
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by MSat »

brantlew wrote:
mahler wrote:
hurdlejade wrote:is this a front camera?
Blue LED
Like in the logo: Image
It doesn't seem to make sense as an LED. Hard to fathom that they would add extra cost and flourishes to a prototype kit, so it would seem to need some purpose. But a single LED is no good for positional tracking. You need at least three for that.

An led is a good way to know that your device is at least getting power.


I'm almost positive it's not a camera (for the reasons I mentioned earlier)

Place your bets now! 8-)
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Post by DolAtoR »

MSat wrote:Someone commented about why would IPD adjustment have two separate knobs, instead of a single integrated one? Because it's easier to make. Looking at the images, it looks like each eyepiece isn't exactly centered horizontally in what looks to be a round cutout. ...
That was me, and I have to say that you are right that it would be easier this way. But as far as I have understood, different IPDs could be accounted for in software – so why would you need to have an IPD adjustment in hardware? If I recall correctly, then Palmer also said IPD is adjustable via software. But feel free to correct me on this point.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Modab »

Dycus wrote:
Modab wrote:I suspect that the project has been getting further behind for weeks.
See my previous post - we actually didn't know until about a week ago.
Dycus, I respectfully disagree. The Kickstarter assured that people would be receiving kits in November that they could assemble themselves. On November 18th, you were still thinking that you would receive the case, sensors, screen, etc. and be able to ship them to everyone in the span of 12 days?

You state in your post that Palmer was making sure that things could be finished before the Chinese holiday. But the Chinese holiday doesn't even begin (according to the helpful spreadsheet! ) until February. If it was that tight, it sounds like the ship date was already being pushed to January or February. If injection molding takes several weeks or a month, I'm truly surprised no one on the staff who has developed mass-produced hardware before was able to say, "Hey it's November and we haven't started making the mold yet, there's no way we can hit a November delivery date any more".

I don't need you guys to be Apple here ;-)
I don't want to be surprised. I am content to take the successes and blows as they come in. If you have bad news, or your thinking has changed, it's much better to just be kept in the loop, and I feel that Oculus has gone the opposite direction for purposes that I don't understand (or just don't agree with).
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Post by MSat »

edit: Double post. Sorry.
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Post by MSat »

DolAtoR wrote:
MSat wrote:Someone commented about why would IPD adjustment have two separate knobs, instead of a single integrated one? Because it's easier to make. Looking at the images, it looks like each eyepiece isn't exactly centered horizontally in what looks to be a round cutout. ...
That was me, and I have to say that you are right that it would be easier this way. But as far as I have understood, different IPDs could be accounted for in software – so why would you need to have an IPD adjustment in hardware? If I recall correctly, then Palmer also said IPD is adjustable via software. But feel free to correct me on this point.
I imagine it's best to have the center of the lenses as close to the center of your eyes. Lets hypothetically say that an HMD had its lenses fixed with the centers between them being 2 inches, yet the spacing between your pupils are 4 inches (remember, I said hypothetical). No amount of software correction will help if your eyes aren't even looking through the lenses, or through the periphery at best. This is somewhat of an exaggeration, as it doesn't appear that even if the lenses in the dev kit could move, they wouldn't move much, but probably good enough to sufficiently accommodate most users. That's my guess.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Metathias »

I for am one am not surprised in the least. Im disappointed, but not at Oculus or anyone else. Many of these things cannot be helped. Honestly for Palmer to go all the way to china just to see if they will be able to finish up before chinese new years was above and beyond the call if you ask me. A phone call would have probably been enough. Im sure he had other things to oversee. Perhaps even those pictures he just presented to us. Until you guys go through the process. You really cant have a proper idea of what it takes to dot all your I's and slash all your T's. Oculus nor their manufacturer can afford to stop half way through a batch because they discovered a design bug that will hinder the functionality of the device. When i got excited and told all my friends about the Oculus i warned em i didnt think id see it till spring of next year anyway. This is not some simple mod. This is a whole new type of device all together. Whether or not its made of pre-produced parts or not. The Optics and software SDK alone assure that. Now that we know about the caveat of this post can we consider the upsides? Im very psyched about the overall design implementation. I could be wrong, but that looks alot like a CCD and not an LED. I could be wrong though. We see only the surface of things. Also i think those nobs on the side mean were getting adjustable optical width, Also i like that they will be independent. Cheaper and more versatile. Not all faces and their eye position are symmetrical. I was thinking if you could but the optics on a screw like cavity the diopter could be adjusted pretty easily as well. Granting of course that the optics are actually optically the same independent of their rotational adjustment. I like the inclusion of the top strap piece as well. I was concerned that one might not be on the developer version of the rift. The use of the 7 inch panel seems to actually be better suited going forward. Im sure panels weights will continue to reduce even at their current display size. Watching the video. I started to wonder if i was seeing some sort of absolute positoning going on. When the player rotated his head to his right side. The Camera appeared to offset position to the right as well as rotation. If not. Maybe the software is kind of combining the rotational into a slight poisitional shift as well. Similar to what carmack did with the artificial neck type qualitys of the doom demos.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Metathias »

I did have one gripe. Stop using chinese manufacturers. Nothing against china, but there are american manufacturers that can do it to. Hopefully for not TOO much more than a chinese one. Hell even japan would be better.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by bobjwatts »

A big update, thanks team Oculus!

7" is great news!

My money is on camera for the logo. Would have loved to have seen dual cameras at eye level though.

Looks like adjustment on the sides, don't think it would have dots if was just to detach from the front.

I find that video really odd, at one point he flicks his head but the screen doesn't respond, but I'll take your word Dycus, thanks for clarifying it.

Love the new design.

All in all totally understandable delay, and for a Kickstarter that exploded the guys are doing so well. I'm going to move forward with v3 of my own DIY, that will hold me out to April.
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Post by jaybug »

Congratulations, Palmer, you have officially made it to the big leagues, now that you have attracted the rage of a large group of irate gamers. :P
I find that video really odd, at one point he flicks his head but the screen doesn't respond, but I'll take your word Dycus, thanks for clarifying it.
It's kinda hard to see it correctly, given that he's using the controller, plus it's such a open landscape. I think you are wrong.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by mahler »

MSat wrote:
mahler wrote:
hurdlejade wrote:is this a front camera?
Blue LED

Like in the logo:

Image
An LED is a good way to know that your device is at least getting power. I'm almost positive it's not a camera (for the reasons I mentioned earlier)
Place your bets now! 8-)
Update from the Kickstarter comments section:
Oculus wrote: The logo on the front of headset has actually been changed to eliminate unnecessary weight in the front plate from those light guides. Instead, there’s a single LED light indicating whether the unit is on.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by weisgarb »

For everyone speculating whether the logo is a camera, Nate has posted in the comments section on KickStarter that it is, in fact, just an LED indicating whether the power is on.

As for the two knobs, they are apparently part of an experiment that may not make it into the final development kit that we receive.

They are also trying to ship the 100 do-it-yourself kits before the assembled version goes out, but they cannot confirm any dates.
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Post by Bishop51 »

jaybug wrote:Congratulations, Palmer, you have officially made it to the big leagues, now that you have attracted the rage of a large group of irate gamers. :P
Lol! Yup, you haven't made strides in business until you've peeved a large group of people at some point. Stay strong Palmer and look at it as a growing experience!

On the "LED or Camera" issue; Doesn't make much sense to me to over-engineer the Dev kit with a blue LED on the faceplate, when the entire logo is backlit in white by the panel itself. Could be a bit of blue plastic there though just to shift the color in that spot. Given the cost and relative simplicity of mini camera sensors, I've got my fingers crossed that they decided to throw one on there (lots of good possibilities with that).
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Bretspot »

Bretspot wrote:Slashdot has a post about this in its pending articles.
Up-vote it if you want it to show on Slashdot's front page. (if you have a Slashdot account of course!)
I wonder who that "Anonymous reader" is... :D

http://slashdot.org/recent
Woo Hoo, the rift has been "Slashdotted" again. Congrats! :)
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/1 ... marchapril
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jaybug
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by jaybug »

As for the two knobs, they are apparently part of an experiment that may not make it into the final development kit that we receive.
That's definitely for adjusting the position of lenses.
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Dycus
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Dycus »

Modab wrote:Dycus, I respectfully disagree. The Kickstarter assured that people would be receiving kits in November that they could assemble themselves. On November 18th, you were still thinking that you would receive the case, sensors, screen, etc. and be able to ship them to everyone in the span of 12 days?
You're right, the November delays could have been expected. I have nothing to do with the updates, however, so I couldn't have said anything about it.
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by MSat »

mahler wrote:
MSat wrote:
mahler wrote:Blue LED

Like in the logo:

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An LED is a good way to know that your device is at least getting power. I'm almost positive it's not a camera (for the reasons I mentioned earlier)
Place your bets now! 8-)
Update from the Kickstarter comments section:
Oculus wrote: The logo on the front of headset has actually been changed to eliminate unnecessary weight in the front plate from those light guides. Instead, there’s a single LED light indicating whether the unit is on.

8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Damn we're good! :lol:
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jaybug
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by jaybug »

A positive note for the November backers:

Palmer says the test run will be air-mailed to the DIY backers, meaning they might get their kits as early as february.
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jayoh
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Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by jayoh »

jaybug wrote:A positive note for the November backers:

Palmer says the test run will be air-mailed to the DIY backers, meaning they might get their kits as early as february.
fork yes. STILL AHEAD OF YOU PUNKS.
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