Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post Reply
3dvison
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 718
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by 3dvison »

PalmerTech wrote:
3dvison wrote:So your looking at a ship date of july or a bit later ?
If everything goes well, yes, shipping in July! I am still working on how it should actually mount to your head, designing something that can be adjusted for everyone is tough.
Don't spend alot of your time on it, because hey, if Sony could not do it, why should you..LOL
What I mean is, I think your real break through is your optics/display assembly. Thats what we most want to buy.
Once the Sony HMZ-T1 was released and in the hands of the people, they modded it for comfort. Most people buy the HMZ-t1 knowing there is a good chance, they might need to mod it for comfort.
You should just put a very plain strap on the RIFT, just good enough to hold it on our noggin for a look see, and from there we will mod it to our liking.
WiredEarp
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)
Posts: 1498
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:47 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by WiredEarp »

I agree that the mount is not the important thing. However, its important that the face/HMD interface area is comfortable. I dont think bulk is a concern, but the way this area is shaped will be important for comfort, even if its covered in foam. The system to mount it to the head, or to a helmet, etc, could be done by the purchasers, although if a basic strap can be provided to 'get people running' it would be a useful selling point as 3dvision said. The important thing is providing a decent resolution high FOV HMD, cheaply.
3dvison
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 718
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by 3dvison »

PalmerTech wrote: Yes, I am in the process of setting up a site. Gonna be pretty barebones, but enough to do what it needs to do.

I think some demo software would be good. I have gotten it to work in the correct aspect ratio with some modern games using the IZ3D driver, it just requires a bit of custom resolution work for each game you want to use!
I think if you have one pretty popular game working on the RIFT with the correct aspect ratio that will be as good as a demo.
In fact thread Number One, on your website should be a "Getting Games Running" Thread, and post #1 should be a list of the games, you already have working, and a quick "How To" on how you got them working with the correct aspect ratio. Then just let the users of the RIFT list the games they have gotten to work and how they did it.

Like I said, it may be self serving on my part, just because I want a RIFT, but that aside, I do think getting the RIFT in peoples hands as quick as you can is also a smart thing to do. It would get the support of the VR community rolling with mods for the RIFT and also there input on how they got other games and software working with it.
TigerClaw
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:26 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by TigerClaw »

Suggestion: it would be awesome if we can use with the HMD correction lenses fort short sighted people like me. :D
It would be the only consumer HMD with this type of feature.

No more glasses!
PalmerTech
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)
Posts: 1644
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:06 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

3dvison wrote:I think if you have one pretty popular game working on the RIFT with the correct aspect ratio that will be as good as a demo.

In fact thread Number One, on your website should be a "Getting Games Running" Thread, and post #1 should be a list of the games, you already have working, and a quick "How To" on how you got them working with the correct aspect ratio. Then just let the users of the RIFT list the games they have gotten to work and how they did it.
I might try to get Skyrim running, since that is a game that has a huge fanbase. I have gotten some offers from people on the VR-Geeks mailing list to help make some demos for the RIFT that can include full positional and rotational data, that will be really cool, too.
TigerClaw wrote:Suggestion: it would be awesome if we can use with the HMD correction lenses fort short sighted people like me. :D
It would be the only consumer HMD with this type of feature.

No more glasses!
The RIFT lets you adjust the focal length of the lenses by turning a couple screws, so you can adjust yours to be whatever you want. I am a bit short sighted as well, so this is important for me too. ;)
StreetRat
Two Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:11 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by StreetRat »

I know im late to the game, but i thought id put in my interest as well.

One thing though, theres a MMO called RIFT by a company called Trion Worlds. (http://www.riftgame.com)
Not sure if itll be different enough not to be a problem or not, but might pay to make sure any graphics or logos dont look like theirs at all.
User avatar
cybereality
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
Posts: 11406
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by cybereality »

I really don't like to over-hype the stuff I'm working on (mostly cause I never finish things) but I am in the process of making a VR demo of sorts. I plan to have native 3D support, and should be able to handle strange aspect-ratios if necessary. I don't want to give away too much yet, but lets just say physics will play a big role. I hope to have an early version running in the next few months. I think it will be pretty cool when its done. It will also require the Razer Hydra, and may need a dedicated PhysX card. But maybe I can make a version that will use other devices later on (like Wiimote or Move). It probably won't be finished for the release of the RIFT, but maybe shortly afterwards. Stay tuned...
pierreye
Sharp Eyed Eagle!
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by pierreye »

Lumagen had a mode for Non Linear Stretch which might help for wide FOV gaming. It allow custom stretch where the side is stretch more than the center pixel which might be a good fit for Palmer custom HMD. So far my experiment show that NLS only work for different aspect ratio, eg. 4:3 to 16:9 or 16:9 to 21:9 (widescreen). Will check with the engineer if it is possible for similar aspect ratio. Basically if this mode work, I think the hardware solution will be the easy route to make Rift HMD compatible to all PC games.
NLS streching.JPG
Extract from Lumagen manual.
Non-linear Stretch
Non-linear-stretch (NLS) is used to horizontally stretch a 4:3 aspect ratio source to fit a 16:9 aspect-ratio display or
to stretch a 16:9/1.85 source to fit a 2.35 aspect-ratio display. The image is stretched by a constant amount in the
center and by an increasing amount approaching the left and right edges. This eliminates the black sidebars
normally seen when viewing lower aspect material on a higher aspect display. To use non-linear stretch press the
“4:3”, “16:9” or “1.85” button and then press the “NLS” button.
The goal is to stretch the image to fill the screen in a way that looks as natural as possible. The Lumagen NLS
command is very flexible and allows the image to be adjusted to user preferences to achieve this goal. The NLS
adjustments are center width, center stretch, top cropping and bottom cropping. The center section of the image
is stretched by a constant ratio from 100% to 124%. The width of the center section can be set from 15% to 70%
of the display width. By programming the center section width and stretch amount, the amount of non-linear
stretch in the left and right sections can be optimized. In addition, the top and bottom cropping can be set from 0
to 12%. Increasing the amount of cropping reduces the amount of stretch near the left and right edges of the
image. When setting the cropping parameters, it is recommended that the satellite/cable box menu be checked to
assure that critical parameters remain visible.
Some 4:3 sources fill the entire source image (e.g. DVD 16:9 movies), but other sources place a 4:3 image in the
center of a 16:9 image (e.g. HDTV with up-scaled SD source). This latter case is seen as a “pillar-boxed” image
with black bars on the left and right. The “PILLARBOXED” parameter must be enabled for this case. The Lumagen
will then crop the pillbox bars and stretch the active 4:3 image.
For a 16:9 display, when 4:3 NLS is enabled, the image will fill the screen with a 4:3 (1.33) source for any output
aspect ratio up to 1.85. If the output aspect ratio is greater than 1.85, software limits the maximum width to the
equivalent of 1.78 and adds left and right sidebars.
For a 2.35 display, when 16:9 NLS is enabled, the image will fill the screen with a 16:9 or 1.85 source for any
output aspect ratio up to 2.40. If the output aspect ratio is greater than 2.40, software limits the maximum width
to the equivalent of 2.40 and adds left and right sidebars.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
pierreye
Sharp Eyed Eagle!
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by pierreye »

@Palmer - Does the HMD lens correct part of the aspect ratio problem like a anamorphic lens? Or can we use a wide angle lens? If yes, this would be the best route to go for as I don't want to throw more pixel away for correct aspect ratio.

DIY option for anamorphic lens.
http://www.zuggsoft.com/theater/prism.htm
User avatar
Johnny-Mnemonic
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:52 am
Location: Zurich area, Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Johnny-Mnemonic »

Hi PalmerTech! Looking forward to your "Rift", I will probably pass all other HMD's now, I really want big FOV which nobody except you are plan to deliver. So thanks for thinking about FOV as a priority!
Oculus Rift, Vuzix Wrap 920 AR!, Vuzix VR920, Liquid Image MRG 2.2, Razer Hydra, P5 Glove, Microsoft Kinect, TrackIR5, 2 x Hillcrest Labs Freespace tracker, Fujifilm finepix real 3d w3, GeForce 9800GT 1Gb, GeForce GT 430 1Gb, DELL XPS 17 l702x with GeForce 555 GT 3Gb, and good-old VFX1 setup
PalmerTech
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)
Posts: 1644
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:06 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

pierreye wrote:@Palmer - Does the HMD lens correct part of the aspect ratio problem like a anamorphic lens? Or can we use a wide angle lens? If yes, this would be the best route to go for as I don't want to throw more pixel away for correct aspect ratio.
Thanks for the detailed explanation of what the Lumagen can do! :) The HMD optics actually do the opposite of an anamorphic lens, it curves the pixels inward, especially at the far edges. This is bad for using the Lumagen, I imagine, but it is actually good for the HMD. It allows you to have higher apparent resolution in the center, where more pixels are focused, and spreads out the pixels on the far edges. I will post screenshots from Nthusim showing warping later today.
Johnny-Mnemonic wrote:Hi PalmerTech! Looking forward to your "Rift", I will probably pass all other HMD's now, I really want big FOV which nobody except you are plan to deliver. So thanks for thinking about FOV as a priority!
Great to hear! The resolution is not as high as I would like, but it is still many times higher than any of the LEEP displays, or the MRG 2.2, so definitely usable.
3dvison
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
Posts: 718
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:25 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by 3dvison »

PalmerTech wrote:I will post screenshots from Nthusim showing warping later today.
YES, Pictures please. All and any pictures you have of or about the RIFT.
space123321
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:29 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by space123321 »

Would love to see some teaser pics as well - the curiosity is killing me lol!

You mention that the res is not as high as you would like - what res are you working with?

Also - what type of hookup will this run - HDMI? You mentioned compatibility concerns - I am running 3d vision as well as ddd drivers on my PC. Will the rift run with this setup?

Thanks in advance~
davidgutierrezpalma
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:14 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by davidgutierrezpalma »

Hey guys, I'm a first time poster, long time lurker...

I'm a freelance game developer (using the Unity3D game engine) and I've been interested in buying a HMD for research for a long time. At first, I thought about purchasing the Sony HMZ-T1, but I realized it would be wiser to start saving money for this HMD when I learned about PalmerTech project... My idea is adding native support for stereoscopic 3D to my personal projects and suggesting my customers to add such support for paid projects, allowing the player to change the fov in the menu depending on the fov of the HMD their are using. As a developer and as an end-user, I would appreciate an easy way to display 2D images, but I suppose I'm far more interested in 3D mode than 2D.

PalmerTech asked in this thread about ideas for the Kickstarter project. I know there are a lot of people in this community who have purchased other HMDs or head tracking hardware previously, but that isn't my case. I'm not a hardware guy, so I would appreciate having an integrated solution for HMD + head tracking, maybe using something like the Sparkfun Razor. I think you could create several pledges for people like me, people who won't mind to pay a little more for getting a "complete product" instead of a DIY kit that must be integrated with other 3rd-party products in order to have a "complete VR solution".

For cheaper pledges, maybe you can sell T-shirts, cups, stickers and things like that. in addition, you could give away a small game or demo showing the benefits of purchasing your HMD instead of purchasing other commercial products. For example, there is a small FPS demo for Unity3D which can be edited for simulating the fov of different HMDs... and it would be possible to play the game in "window-mode" and change the window size at runtime to make it proportional to the simulated fov, so the user would appreciate better how different is your product to the other solutions available in the market. I wouldn't mind to make those changes myself, it should be easy and I'm very interested in this project, so I would like to see it success.
nrp
Two Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:19 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by nrp »

That actually does make quite a lot of sense. Keeping the barriers to entry as low as possible by getting everyone developing on the same display hardware, optics, and motion tracking would be useful.

PalmerTech, the Tracker my friend and I are working on is entirely open source, if you would be interested in integrating it somehow. The board area is currently 1.5"x1.5", but that is entirely because of our use of Bluetooth and inclusion of debug/GPIO headers. The meat of it interfaced over USB can fit on one side of a 1"x1" PCB and uses <$20 of parts (at 100 units).

I'm going to be assembling the second board revision this weekend if the parts arrive in time.

Edit: Slight side note. Within the next few months, ST is releasing a single IC 3 axis gyro/magnetometer/accelerometer which would drastically reduce both the size and price of this sort of thing.
davidgutierrezpalma
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:14 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by davidgutierrezpalma »

nrp wrote:That actually does make quite a lot of sense. Keeping the barriers to entry as low as possible by getting everyone developing on the same display hardware, optics, and motion tracking would be useful.
Of course developing for a single display / optics / motion tracking combination is easier than having to take into account all possible combinations, but I don't think the user base would be big enough (at least at the beginning) to support only PalmerTech's HMD. I know this HMD will be much better than everything else in the consumer market, but with a small user base, I will need to develop for several HMD / head tracking combinations to justify the investment, so having a head tracker integrated in this HMD won't keep the entry barriers low for developers. When I was talking about having the motion tracker integrated in the HMD I was talking as an end-user, but as a developer, it can be a good selling point to label my game as "compatible with _______" or "optimized for _______".
nrp wrote:PalmerTech, the Tracker my friend and I are working on is entirely open source, if you would be interested in integrating it somehow.
I talked about the Sparkfun Razor because I need a head-tracker that works in 360 degrees, but if your head tracker meets that requirement I would say "why not?" I would like to hear the opinion of PalmerTech about the possibility of adding integrated head-tracking to his HMD.
WiredEarp
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)
Posts: 1498
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:47 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by WiredEarp »

If be happy if there was just a flat square area to mount whatever tracker I choose. That way, PalmerTech could always include a tracker as an option, but those who have them already don't have to pay for a tracker they dont need.
CyberVillain
Petrif-Eyed
Posts: 2166
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:36 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by CyberVillain »

Sparkfun razor is a Arduino IMU which uses standard IC compatible sensors (ADXL345, HMC5883L and ITG-3200) you can probably take nrp's fusion code and use it directly for the Razor (Maybe change library for the sensors if it uses different sensors). I've yet to see fusion code that completely eliminates drift though.
nrp
Two Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:19 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by nrp »

CyberVillain wrote:Sparkfun razor is a Arduino IMU which uses standard IC compatible sensors (ADXL345, HMC5883L and ITG-3200) you can probably take nrp's fusion code and use it directly for the Razor (Maybe change library for the sensors if it uses different sensors). I've yet to see fusion code that completely eliminates drift though.
The Razor has fairly similar hardware to what I've built and would ultimately output the same result running the same sensor fusion algorithms. The downsides to the Razor though are that it is kind of expensive for what it is, and that it interfaces over TTL serial rather than USB (though my board also has a serial header).

You all are correct though that it doesn't really matter what the specific motion tracker in use is. What matters from a developer/user perspective is that they have similar capabilities and the same or similar interface. That is, a reasonably drift free (or true AHRS) quaternion delivered in an easy to parse format over serial, USB virtual serial, or something like the USB HID Sensor protocol.

This is kind of drifting away from the topic of Rift though.
fraherd
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:28 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by fraherd »

Good to hear your still working away at it Palmer. If you need money up front I'm happy to throw you accross what ever you think the unit is going to cost now. Real keen to see you get this off the ground. :D
3D Visualisation Artist
http://www.FraherDesign3D.com.au
Balthazar
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:15 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Balthazar »

Hi Palmer,
"Cb"wan told me about your "Oculus/Rift" project, in the beginning I thought it was just a chip diy project but after reading your post, I think that's really impressive... I hope you'll achieve it!
If you're still in need for logos, I'm no pro but I would be glad to help you for that part ( btw, I think Oculus is a very nice name)...let me know if you're interested: balthazar.auxietre@gmail.com

Good luck!
PalmerTech
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)
Posts: 1644
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:06 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

space123321 wrote:You mention that the res is not as high as you would like - what res are you working with?

Also - what type of hookup will this run - HDMI?
The res is 1280x800 split in half. It should be able to use VGA, HDMI, and DVI connections. Still figuring out the best way to do drivers.
davidgutierrezpalma wrote:My idea is adding native support for stereoscopic 3D to my personal projects and suggesting my customers to add such support for paid projects, allowing the player to change the fov in the menu depending on the fov of the HMD their are using.
Great! That is exactly what I am hoping people will do, write support for it into their own games. :D Integrated head tracking is probably a good idea as long as it can be done without a huge cost, which looks very possible now. If people want more advanced tracking (Like the Hydra) they can do it themselves.
nrp wrote:PalmerTech, the Tracker my friend and I are working on is entirely open source, if you would be interested in integrating it somehow. The board area is currently 1.5"x1.5", but that is entirely because of our use of Bluetooth and inclusion of debug/GPIO headers. The meat of it interfaced over USB can fit on one side of a 1"x1" PCB and uses <$20 of parts (at 100 units)
Your tracker probably is a good choice, it would fit this project well. 1.5x1.5 is fine, size wise. USB is probably fine for most people, but bluetooth would be good for people using wireless video links for standup rigs. I would love to get in on whatever first batch you make for testing, and if it works well, we can probably work out something from there. :)

Everyone else, thank you for the interest! Looks like there are about 20 people who have said they would want one for sure, that is probably enough to hit at least a third of the Kickstarter goal I have in mind.
alexlf
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:00 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by alexlf »

If your looking to gauge interest I'd definitely get one, and I might be able to convince a few friends as well...
Looking forward to it Palmer :D
davidgutierrezpalma
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:14 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by davidgutierrezpalma »

PalmerTech wrote:Great! That is exactly what I am hoping people will do, write support for it into their own games. :D Integrated head tracking is probably a good idea as long as it can be done without a huge cost, which looks very possible now. If people want more advanced tracking (Like the Hydra) they can do it themselves.
I haven't started to research the cost of adding head tracking to my games, but with so many products in the market (without a standard API) it may not be so easy. However, I don't understand why only a few games have native stereoscopic support and none of them offers a configurable fov (without hacking config files). The cost of adding those features (in any game engine) is so small in comparison with the benefits you would get... I really don't understand.

I suppose most innovations comes from indie developers nowadays: while many indie developers try to make money finding a niche and making good products for that small market, most big studios are working in multi-million projects and are too afraid of trying new ideas because of the financial risk involved.
bobv5
Certif-Eyed!
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:38 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by bobv5 »

I most certainly am intrested, but have very little cash. Will this still be available in many months when I have saved up enough?
"If you have a diabolical mind, the first thing that probably came to mind is that it will make an excellent trap: how do you get off a functional omni-directional treadmill?"
CyberVillain
Petrif-Eyed
Posts: 2166
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:36 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by CyberVillain »

davidgutierrezpalma wrote:
PalmerTech wrote:Great! That is exactly what I am hoping people will do, write support for it into their own games. :D Integrated head tracking is probably a good idea as long as it can be done without a huge cost, which looks very possible now. If people want more advanced tracking (Like the Hydra) they can do it themselves.
I haven't started to research the cost of adding head tracking to my games, but with so many products in the market (without a standard API) it may not be so easy. However, I don't understand why only a few games have native stereoscopic support and none of them offers a configurable fov (without hacking config files). The cost of adding those features (in any game engine) is so small in comparison with the benefits you would get... I really don't understand.

I suppose most innovations comes from indie developers nowadays: while many indie developers try to make money finding a niche and making good products for that small market, most big studios are working in multi-million projects and are too afraid of trying new ideas because of the financial risk involved.
If you support the Freetrack API most trackers can be supported through FreePIE or GlovePIE
davidgutierrezpalma
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:14 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by davidgutierrezpalma »

CyberVillain wrote:If you support the Freetrack API most trackers can be supported through FreePIE or GlovePIE
Thanks for the information, I will study that approach. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I will start a new thread if i need more information about Freetrack and other motion tracking systems.
CyberVillain
Petrif-Eyed
Posts: 2166
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:36 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by CyberVillain »

davidgutierrezpalma wrote:
CyberVillain wrote:If you support the Freetrack API most trackers can be supported through FreePIE or GlovePIE
Thanks for the information, I will study that approach. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I will start a new thread if i need more information about Freetrack and other motion tracking systems.
No worries, just one more thing, Freetrack only takes care of headtracking. For moving the entire view (that you normally do with the mouse) you could support absolute joystick values
nvman90
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:32 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by nvman90 »

PalmerTech wrote:Looks like there are about 20 people who have said they would want one for sure, that is probably enough to hit at least a third of the Kickstarter goal I have in mind.
Don't forget us lurkers! I'll want one for sure.
nrp
Two Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:19 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by nrp »

PalmerTech wrote: Your tracker probably is a good choice, it would fit this project well. 1.5x1.5 is fine, size wise. USB is probably fine for most people, but bluetooth would be good for people using wireless video links for standup rigs. I would love to get in on whatever first batch you make for testing, and if it works well, we can probably work out something from there. :)
The trouble with Bluetooth is the inherent latency. End to end, it'll be at least 50ms and probably over 100ms. You can below that if you license access to CSR's bluetooth stack and tune the HCI, L2CAP, and RFCOMM layers for latency instead of using whatever the premade modules are set up for, and also develop a USB dongle to use on the desktop side to avoid getting ruined by whatever the Bluetooth stack there is set up to do. That would require making a lot of the things for it not to add a lot of expense per unit.

The latency is acceptable for controllers, but for something controlling your field of view, it might be nauseating.
davidgutierrezpalma
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:14 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by davidgutierrezpalma »

nrp wrote: The trouble with Bluetooth is the inherent latency. End to end, it'll be at least 50ms and probably over 100ms. You can below that if you license access to CSR's bluetooth stack and tune the HCI, L2CAP, and RFCOMM layers for latency instead of using whatever the premade modules are set up for, and also develop a USB dongle to use on the desktop side to avoid getting ruined by whatever the Bluetooth stack there is set up to do. That would require making a lot of the things for it not to add a lot of expense per unit.

The latency is acceptable for controllers, but for something controlling your field of view, it might be nauseating.
While I agree latency is something undesirable for "something controlling your field of view", I wonder if it would be so bad. Most multi-player games don't send a network package every frame (but every 100 ms) and use interpolation and movement prediction algorithms to offer the player the feeling of smooth movements. Maybe having that latency isn't so bad, we talked about redirected walking in this thread (http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 69&#p67559) and it seems our brain can accept a small disparity between our real head movements and the virtual viewport movements, but I suppose we won't know until we try it.
WiredEarp
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)
Posts: 1498
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:47 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by WiredEarp »

Bluetooth in my (admittedly little) experience is laggy, supported by all sorts of wierd implementations that may or may not work, and wastes a lot of power on mobile devices.
Most of the decent wireless solutions that i've ever seen, seem to have their own dongles and systems.
Maybe having that latency isn't so bad, we talked about redirected walking in this thread (http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.p ... 69&#p67559) and it seems our brain can accept a small disparity between our real head movements and the virtual viewport movements, but I suppose we won't know until we try it.
I think you are underestimating the latency issue. I've experienced it on the Virtuality SU1000 setup (not that I needed to, the detrimental effects of lag in the head movement/display loop are pretty well documented) and its not going to be acceptable to have 50ms of lag shoved on top of your frame times. You can not interpolate this - while a tiny amount of interpolation may be useful just for anti noise purposes, any substantial amount will just cause similar immersion issues to the lag in the first place. The issue is that you turn your head, and the world takes a moment to 'catch up' - this breaks immersion.

I believe the redirected walking is mainly working on the effect whereby a small movement can be simulated in VR, and feel like a large one... and vice versa
That means that when turning, you can have the system 'overturn' or 'underturn' you. When moving straight, it can slowly rotate the viewpoint at a speed under your recognition. This has nothing to do with head lag IMHO.
davidgutierrezpalma
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:14 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by davidgutierrezpalma »

I don't have the hardware to test it myself (yet) so I'm probably underestimating the effects of the latency, I was only trying to suggest a possible solution to reduce those effects. I thought that, as the brain can accept some disparity between the real world movement and the virtual movement (used in redirected walking), we could get away with a small lag between the real movement and the virtual movement.

I'm probably wrong, but if somebody has the required hardware and want to give it a try... ;)

EDIT:
A quick google search has proven that I was wrong.
User avatar
jayoh
Cross Eyed!
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:45 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by jayoh »

i sent you a pm, palmertech. i'm hyped about this project, just wish the resolution was a bit higher!
pierreye
Sharp Eyed Eagle!
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by pierreye »

Shouldn't bluetooth 2.0 latency around 30ms to 50ms? Hopefully new gen of bluetooth 4.0 will bring that below 10ms.
gnewell22
One Eyed Hopeful
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 6:23 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by gnewell22 »

nvman90 wrote:
PalmerTech wrote:Looks like there are about 20 people who have said they would want one for sure, that is probably enough to hit at least a third of the Kickstarter goal I have in mind.
Don't forget us lurkers! I'll want one for sure.
I want one for sure too.
User avatar
AngelJ
Cross Eyed!
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:47 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by AngelJ »

I'd be interested in one of these for sim racing on PC.
space123321
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:29 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by space123321 »

hi Palmer - how is it looking in terms of your June launch date? I am saving up those pennies!
User avatar
Chriky
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:24 am

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by Chriky »

How much do we know about the specs then...? The resolution is about 640x800 for each eye, and should be able to take VGA and HDMI. What about the FOV? 70 degrees? Are these things still being finalized?
PalmerTech
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)
Posts: 1644
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:06 pm

Re: Oculus "Rift" : An open-source HMD for Kickstarter

Post by PalmerTech »

space123321 wrote:hi Palmer - how is it looking in terms of your June launch date? I am saving up those pennies!
Not going to launch in June, but I will have the Kickstarter project up in June. With luck, that will mean shipping in July!
Chriky wrote:How much do we know about the specs then...? The resolution is about 640x800 for each eye, and should be able to take VGA and HDMI. What about the FOV? 70 degrees? Are these things still being finalized?
The FOV is still being finalized, mainly because I am still trying to strike a balance between cost/exit pupil/ease of assembly/FOV. I want to have a FOV of at least 90 degrees, since that is the maximum that most games can render by default. I can go as high as 120, but it will probably be a little less than that.

Progress on the project is stalled out for about a week while I buckle down on finishing a different project that is on a deadline, but full steam ahead after that.
Post Reply

Return to “Oculus VR”