It is currently Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:19 am



Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
 Increased Field of View by seeing through the nose 
Author Message
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:13 pm
Posts: 289
Hi,

This post seems obvious to me, but since I haven't come across a similar post anywhere else, I will now mention it.

Fundamentally, S3D viewing is about the field of view and the overlap of images seen by the eyes.

The field of view and overlap could be improved if the area on the inside of the nose could become available for viewing an image, instead of potentially blocking an image.

The sense of immersion in a scene could go beyond what we normally experience in physical space if we could virtually remove the nose, or part of it.

Here is how it is to be done. I won't say simply, but it is simple in principle.

For each eye, a slab of suitably thick glass or plastic needs to be placed in front of the eye adjacent to the nose, so that the rays coming from the head mounted display optics are refracted around the nose. It is expected the slab has parallel faces so the incoming image is not unnecessarily distorted before reaching the eye.

Because of the proximity of the refractive slab to the nose and forehead, it may need to be contoured/customised for a comfortable fit for near eye viewing. The closer the slab is positioned to the eye, the smaller it needs to be to capture the field of view.

Of course the thickness of the slab needs to be sufficient to 'get around' the nose of the user, so the implementations and results may vary accordingly.

A plastic slab made from acrylic or similar material has the benefits of low density ( 1.2 g/cc ) and machinabilty over glass. I have seen large sized 'acrylic stamping blocks' as possibly being suitable for prototyping. These are quite cheap and readily available.

Anyhow, good luck with proving this concept.

Thanks.


Last edited by budda on Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:33 pm
Profile
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:23 pm
Posts: 2190
Location: Irvine, CA
It sounds like an interesting solution, but wouldn't it lower the sense of immersion since peering down the sides of your nose is such an engrained part of your perception and part of what makes you feel like you are within your own body.


Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:27 pm
Profile
3D Angel Eyes (Moderator)
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 10872
Ha, for a second I thought you were going to endorse cutting off your nose!!!

Seriously, though, if we are defining "immersion" as "simulating being in reality", then wouldn't we want the nose in there since that is part of reality?

_________________
check my blog - cybereality.com


Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:37 pm
Profile
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:23 pm
Posts: 2190
Location: Irvine, CA
cybereality wrote:
Ha, for a second I thought you were going to endorse cutting off your nose!!!


Well at least you could fit bigger lenses side by side without a nose to worry about. Now that's dedication! :lol:


Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:56 pm
Profile
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:13 pm
Posts: 289
Hi,

We could define immersion as being like a fish in a fishbowl.

Most fishes can't see their noses either. Ha.


Thanks.


Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:16 pm
Profile
Certif-Eyed!

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:38 pm
Posts: 529
It depends on the situation. The player charecter might not be human. Not having a nose would enhance the non human-ness.

_________________
"If you have a diabolical mind, the first thing that probably came to mind is that it will make an excellent trap: how do you get off a functional omni-directional treadmill?"


Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:56 pm
Profile
Two Eyed Hopeful

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:34 am
Posts: 53
if u used a lens that is concaved around the eye on one side and Convexed on the other you could achieve this (i think)


Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:49 am
Profile
Diamond Eyed Freakazoid!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:34 am
Posts: 733
Location: Brighton, UK
bobv5 wrote:
It depends on the situation. The player charecter might not be human. Not having a nose would enhance the non human-ness.

Or maybe I want an ALIEN virtual nose? Or perhaps I should be able to select from an array of virtual noses? Or, better yet, perhaps scan my real nose into a game, so I feel "more at home".

Virtual noses for everyone!

EDIT: sorry, I'm not actually being very helpful for the discussion.... it's just that the concept of virtual noses makes me giggle for some reason.

_________________
Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits.


Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:27 am
Profile WWW
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:22 am
Posts: 1514
I think i would have to pluck all my nose hairs to see through it ouch :o

_________________
"I did not chip in ten grand to seed a first investment round to build value for a Facebook acquisition."
Notch on the FaceDisgrace buyout.


Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:21 am
Profile
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:47 pm
Posts: 2648
budda wrote:
... This post seems obvious to me, but since I haven't come across a similar post anywhere else, I will now mention it.

Fundamentally, S3D viewing is about the field of view and the overlap of images seen by the eyes.

The field of view and overlap could be improved if the area on the inside of the nose could become available for viewing an image, instead of potentially blocking an image.

The sense of immersion in a scene could go beyond what we normally experience in physical space if we could virtually remove the nose, or part of it. ...
As mentioned in another thread, by using stacked fresnel lenses held very close to the eye (touching the side of the nose, the cheek, and the underside of the eyebrow) I can see images where my nose should be. The key to stretching the image out beyond the nose is to use the "eccentric" (outer edges) of a 6-inch fresnel lens that is high quality with many fine ridges, which can be found at some dollar stores.

My experiments show that stretching the image beyond natural facial occlusions (giving a "supernatural FoV"), makes returning to the real world LESS immersive. In other worlds, VR with invisible facial occlusions (depending on your head shape) can be MORE immersive than reality.

After viewing video for a few minutes with this lens stack (left 1/3, right 1/3, middle 1/3, all trimmed to fit against lower nose and inner eyebrow ridge), taking it off makes me suddenly and unusually aware of the visibility of my nose, eyebrows, and mustache which I can see back in the "real world", actually giving me LESS immersion for a minute or so in the real world.

Now I need to get back to that experiment, mounting a pair of lens stacks in a frame that will work with my Nexis 7 tablet (fov2go for tablets)...

Here are some other posts that talk about this fresnel lens stack and its effects (including seeing through the nose):
search.php?keywords=fresnel+lens+stack

And here is the original post:
viewtopic.php?f=140&t=15247&p=95663#p95633

Now that I have found your thread here, I see that this thread may have been a better place for me to post the results of my experiment.

_________________
“The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen.” ―Carl Ally


Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:20 am
Profile
Binocular Vision CONFIRMED!

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:13 pm
Posts: 289
Hi,

Interesting work geekmaster on using fresnel lenses to achieve a super wide field of view.

My ideas above refer to a basic concept (which others have probably thought of too), but you have moved on with a practical realisation.

Post away, but I would have thought a more general thread for your work, such as "Fresnel lens stack for superior field of view" would cover both the fresnel lens approach and its other possibilities.

Thanks.


Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:30 pm
Profile
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:47 pm
Posts: 2648
budda wrote:
Hi,

Interesting work geekmaster on using fresnel lenses to achieve a super wide field of view.

My ideas above refer to a basic concept (which others have probably thought of too), but you have moved on with a practical realisation.

Post away, but I would have thought a more general thread for your work, such as "Fresnel lens stack for superior field of view" would cover both the fresnel lens approach and its other possibilities.

Thanks.
Done! I just created a new thread:
Fresnel lens stack for "supernatural" FoV
viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16373

It contains large quotes taken from my posts on this topic, scattered through four different threads, plus some PMs.

It makes more sense to follow this information in a single thread.

_________________
“The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen.” ―Carl Ally


Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:31 pm
Profile
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:47 pm
Posts: 1445
Quote:
My experiments show that stretching the image beyond natural facial occlusions (giving a "supernatural FoV"), makes returning to the real world LESS immersive. In other worlds, VR with invisible facial occlusions (depending on your head shape) can be MORE immersive than reality.

After viewing video for a few minutes with this lens stack (left 1/3, right 1/3, middle 1/3, all trimmed to fit against lower nose and inner eyebrow ridge), taking it off makes me suddenly and unusually aware of the visibility of my nose, eyebrows, and mustache which I can see back in the "real world", actually giving me LESS immersion for a minute or so in the real world.


Thats really quite interesting geekmaster. I wonder if one day (brain interfaces for example) we might not achieve 360 degree vision, making a return to 'reality' seem very unreal.


Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:05 am
Profile
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:47 pm
Posts: 2648
WiredEarp wrote:
Thats really quite interesting geekmaster. I wonder if one day (brain interfaces for example) we might not achieve 360 degree vision, making a return to 'reality' seem very unreal.
Please continue this "supernatural FoV" discussion in the dedicated "lens stack" thread mentioned in my previous post above. I already quoted other posts from this thread into that new thread. I will quote your new post there too. Thanks.

_________________
“The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen.” ―Carl Ally


Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:17 am
Profile
Golden Eyed Wiseman! (or woman!)

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:47 pm
Posts: 1445
I think my quote was better here actually, your other thread is specifically about Fresnel lenses, whereas this one is talking about increased FOV, which isn't necessarily related to Fresnel lenses at all.


Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:07 am
Profile
Petrif-Eyed
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:47 pm
Posts: 2648
WiredEarp wrote:
I think my quote was better here actually, your other thread is specifically about Fresnel lenses, whereas this one is talking about increased FOV, which isn't necessarily related to Fresnel lenses at all.
Okay, as you wish, but notice that these are sister threads with a LOT of overlap, existing in two different forums.

But even in the other thread, I mentioned that the fresnel lens stacks could be replaced by custom acrylic lenses for a better-quality image, so the distinction between this and that thread are more than a bit overlapping in scope and domain.

In the light of keeping both threads alive and current (for now), here is a useful diagram from the other thread that is relevant and useful to help envision the meaning of the title of THIS thread:
Image
geekmaster wrote:
... Notice that the Virtual FoV images extend horizontally inward behind the nose. A similar effect lets me see vertically beyond my eyebrow ridge above, and beyond my mustache below.

As mentioned above, this not only does NOT reduce immersion, but in fact, REMOVING the "headset" makes Real Life "less immersive" due to the distracting sudden awareness of natural facial obstructions. With the lenses, you get a "supernatural" (beyond natural) FoV. ...
You can read a more complete description of this diagram and its "Theory of Operation" at this post:
viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16373&p=98865#p98869
budda wrote:
... The field of view and overlap could be improved if the area on the inside of the nose could become available for viewing an image, instead of potentially blocking an image.

The sense of immersion in a scene could go beyond what we normally experience in physical space if we could virtually remove the nose, or part of it. ...
My prior experience (as demonstrated in the above diagram) matches your proposed principle, as described in previous posts in multiple threads (now quoted in my new dedicated thread).

We can only hope that these "supernatural FoV" ideas proposed by budda and myself help to increase the immersive experience of future Rift models (which are already superior to competitive devices).

Please note that the Oculus Rift may ALREADY provide somewhat of a "Supernatural FoV", depending on how close its lenses are to the viewer's eyes (and how much FoV is covered by lens material and not lens frames). We will find out just how much, in time.

_________________
“The creative person wants to be a know-it-all. He wants to know about all kinds of things: ancient history, nineteenth century mathematics, current manufacturing techniques, flower arranging, and hog futures. Because he never knows when these ideas might come together to form a new idea. It may happen six minutes later or six years down the road. But he has faith that it will happen.” ―Carl Ally


Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:44 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 16 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by STSoftware.