Is Kickstarter the best option for the Rift? (Fees, etc)

[Chriky]

There's a difference between 'niche' meaning the hacker geek crowd which probably numbers in the 10,000s and 'niche' meaning MTBS3D forum members who would happily use any payment method to get Palmer the money, which probably numbers in the 10s. The are people out there who would be perfectly happy building a RIFT, but who would not be perfectly happy using a payment method they hadn't heard of before.

No one is trying to attack you, but its my personal opinion that if Palmer wants to get enough backers to buy some expensive construction hardware like a laser cutter, he would need to use Kickstarter. It's not a visibility argument, it's a question of perceived legitimacy. Rightly or wrongly (wrongly, probably, it seems like you guys know what you are doing), people will perceive a Kickstarter project as more legitimate.

[pierreye]

As Palmer wanted to start the project for VR community who are willing to DIY or work with the v1 limitation, I think it's best to launch in small quantity first to get some feedback and also use the profit for better tooling/equipment. Once feedback/expectation had been set correctly, Kickstarter would be a good option to launch it to the public for higher quantity for profit and funding for next iteration of RIFT. I understand that with the low profit Palmer had, a few disputed Paypal transaction will force him to fork out his own money and demoralized him to pursue the next gen VR gear. The support might overwhelm him as I mentioned earlier so best to do a small quantity first to work out the minor issue first.

[Bishop51]

@bishop51: could you explain me how is it possible that the small niche who already follows this scene very closely, and of them the ones that have the abilities to put together a HMD from a kit (not everybody is into DIY) haven't heard about the Rift despite the hundreds of blog posts, mentions in twitter and videos of Carmack at the E3, and yet they will hear about it from kickstarter's main site?

I'm serious, I don't see how the situation you talk about it's even possible

I realize you're feeling attacked or up against the fence somehow here but that's really not my intent. Like I said before, BIG kudos to you guys for starting up a gaming focused crowdsourcing site. It's needed and I'm sure given enough time, you'll do terrific things with it.

To answer your question; Carmack created a nice little media circus for the project, at this point it's about consumer trust in a service and netting the highest potential returns from that media saturation. Like it or not, Kickstarter is trusted, used and does have the potential to further extend reach (even if that reach is trivial compared to what has already taken place). You're also underestimating just how large that potential "DIY" segment actually is and the kind of mentality that keeps people hunting for new things on Kickstarter. Its not just the few VR-heads that float around here, its potentially thousands of tinkerers who would eagerly part ways with a few hundred to get their hands on a groundbreaking VR kit (one that from my understanding is actually pretty trivial to put together).

If Palmer ends up exceeding his original funding target and pushing through with additional stretch goals, this could turn into something much more ambitious (he's already alluded to ramping up production to meet a certain demand level). At very least, this entire ball of wax has the potential to interest serious investors in pushing forward with a consumer grade product. Its that whole matrix of confidence, both in terms of what Palmer is doing with RIFT and which services he chooses to utilize to promote that sense of stability and longevity that count here.

You're a green, untested, unproven start-up, there's no getting away from that, no matter what you're bringing to the table, no matter how right you are about the state of the current crowdsourcing market. You're not the top kid on the block and that will ultimately hurt Palmer and RIFT. There's just no nice way to say it.

[Alkapwn]

I think one issue with Kickstarter will be the backer's misconception as to what it is exactly that they're getting into by backing this project. In seeing all of the issues that have arisen by simply people forgetting to add $10 for shipping, I get concerned. Especially when almost every project states it to the point of nausea. People seem to be so willing to toss their money into backing a project without bothering to read how much it costs or how much they actually need to contribute to account for shipping. The fact that they overlook something so simple and so clearly laid out for them is odd to say the least.

Also, on Kickstarter there seem to be a lot of projects that don't in fact have a working model yet of what they're trying to get funded. So what they show the people is a "prototype". I have a bad feeling despite how many times you state the fact that this IS a kit, that does require assembly, the majority that will jump on the bandwagon will assume that this is just a prototype. And when you complete the order and send them out they will be fully assembled, better versions of the Rift that require no work on their part.

I worry about the mainstream publicity and further exposure will seriously result in a lot of people jumping on the Kickstarter and having misconceptions of what the final product will actually be.

I'm fairly new to this forum, since the Verge thing with Carmack, just recently finished The Masters of Doom, and am a huge fan of his work and innovations that he brings to video games. The fact that he and others on this forum speak so highly of your work, even without knowing you, I'd be willing to send a check and opt in on the first 100 run to get this thing off the ground. I seriously think you could find 100 people easily that will jump on board even without Kickstarter, build them out then get feedback. Then after that you do a more commercial version that would appeal to the Kickstarter crowd which for the most part has a final product mentality in mind when they fund stuff. And no so much a working DIY kit product.

[mrMattB]

@Dudebro

Sorry I wasn't really clear on getting my thoughts across - limited data-set to work with here so I didn't spend much time reviewing this.

Things to consider :

What's the basic Objective or goal of the Kickstarter:
// One sentence summary
// Needs to be outlined and extrapolated upon

Example :

Basic Summary : New virtual reality headset geared towards the gaming industry - needs your support to get off the ground.
If you are interested in helping fund the development of this new technology please donate - 5,10,20 dollars and up.
With your support we will be able to get development kits out to the community for further testing and development.

Objectives :

1. Get kits out to people for initial run
// The above $700 dollars group get HMD Kits

2. All funds under the $700 dollar group go to:
// Initial operating costs for procuring said fabrication materials
(i.e. 3d printer, human resources, supply chain management, etc.)

3. Setup online shop to distribute direct to customers via website after initial run of test units:
// More people will want this after the youtube videos start pouring in showing this technology off.
(Disruptive technologies like this are impossible to project for; often spinning off other disruptions unpredictably too.)

3.1. Educational material
// Videos explaining the technology *accessed via website FAQ/About page
(where it is, where its going, how its being used, what its going to be used for, current developers, companies that support this, etc.)

Other considerations:
*Are you shipping outside the continental US?
*Time constraints - 90 day lead time?
*Human resources - what are your operational capabilities/limitations?
*Additional unknowns/variables

--

Looking at 70k views on youtube for the verge video.

Lets say that of the 70,000 people that looked at the video, 1/2 of them come back and donate 5 dollars.

Thats 35,000 viewers.

Of the 35,000 viewers, lets say 10% fund the project = 3,500 backers

3,500 * $2 = $7,000
3,500 * $5 = $8,750
3,500 * $10 = $17,500
3,500 * $20 = $70,000

Given the amount of gamers that play call of duty - estimating 8 million - the numbers listed above are very conservative.

Lastly, a cameo appearance by John C in the kickstarter video will increase funding dramatically. It'll also boost sales of their Doom BFG game so it's a win both ways.

[bobthedog007]

Some people here are saying because this is a DIY kit that it is too niche for the average kickstarter backer.

Printrbot would like to disagree!
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pri ... 3d-printer

This was an open source 3d printer DIY *kit*, just like the Rift will be.

The project required $25k for funding and landed up getting $830k.

Their basic DIY kit started at $499 (with various options and/or international shipping up to $690). About 1200 people bought the DIY kits. And these kits sound much more complicated for the average person to assemble.

Then they also had a limited reward run of 25 fully assembled kits for $750 of which all were sold out.

So I can see this project selling much much more than 100 kits on kickstarter (or whatever crowdfunding site you use). And you can easily put a limited premium run of preassembled kits that actually make a fair profit since there will be those that really want one but are not technically inclined with lots of cash to spare.

[PalmerTech]

Thanks again for all the feedback! Going to keep this thread open as I continue writing up the Kickstarter.

After reading the feedback here, doing a ton of research on my own, and talking to of the other people helping me with the project, here is what I think I am going to do:

Stage 1: Take a limited number of pre-Kickstarter orders from members on the forum

This will let me bypass the Kickstarter fees on the first couple units, which gives me more money to put towards the project. These orders will be for the HMD only, not any of the accessories (Motion tracker, wireless video link, battery pack, long/thin cables, etc). The reason for this is that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that even if the Kickstarter fails, I know I can deliver at least those HMDs. If the Kickstarter is successful, then all those extra accessories will be available on the Oculus website, probably at a slightly reduced price for all the early-early adopters. These units will have some kind of unique marking laser cut into them to indicate your super-cool status. I will save some of these funds for the main batch, and use some of them to order pre-production parts to make a few prototypes for people who can get the Rift even more attention by integrating it with their projects.

Stage 2: Take the project to Kickstarter

This fulfills Carmack's promise in the interviews that it would go to Kickstarter, and hopefully gets it mass exposure (If not adoption). There will be several different bundles containing the different extras, and a few smaller rewards that are cheap/free to deliver for people who just want to show support for the project. I plan on running it for 60 days, and while I know that is long for a Kickstarter, there is a reason: QuakeCon. It has a lot of attendees who would be interested in the Rift, and most of them are already going to buy Doom 3 BFG! A 60 day project would put the end of the Kickstarter right around QuakeCon, the perfect time for a big push. Yeah, the fees are a bitch, but the advantages are worth the financial hit; A sentiment that anyone else with a significant other understands, eh?

Stage 3: Order all the parts, wait for the truckloads of components to arrive, and then right to work!

If it is only 100 units, then I will be able to do all the work myself. If it gets more attention than expected, I have some friends who would be willing to help; We will order a few pizzas and cases of Mt. Dew, run movies on my projector, and test, assemble, and package all the kits. Testing is going to take the longest, but I do not want to ship out anything with faults. If a panel has even one dead pixel, it will not be going in the kit.

Stage 4: Shipping, support, community building

Pretty self explanatory. I am not going to be giving much in the way of after-sale support, but any problems that are my fault will obviously be taken care of. From there, the community will have a great HMD to use in their projects, and I will hopefully have some new tools and machines that I can use to work on future upgrades or products.

Let me know what you guys think, going to crosspost this to the main Rift thread. If nobody has any really great ideas or changes, pre-Kickstarter orders will start tomorrow and run through Friday.

[BillRoeske]

Sounds like a plan! I'll probably wait for the Kickstarter campaign to do my part making sure that it funds. I've got enough plates spinning right now that I don't mind waiting a bit

What's the expected lead time for getting the forum pre-order units sent out?

[rajveer]

Sounds good, I'll probably go for one of the pre-Kickstarter kits if I can get one, but I did want to get a kit with all the bells and whistles (headtracker, wireless video, battery, and a copy of Doom). For those who get a pre-Kickstarter kit and get the other accessories separately from the Oculus website, would the total amount be no more than the full bundles that would be available on Kickstarter?

[druidsbane]

I'm definitely in pre-kickstarter if that's alright. If there are reasonable problems and cost overruns I'm okay as well being a guinea pig this being so new looking forward to seeing what this can do

[Ameria]

Yep, that sounds like a pretty sensible plan to me. One thing that struck me is that your post says "This will let me bypass the Kickstarter fees on the first couple units" - is that a typo, or are you thinking that the "limited number" of pre-kickstarter orders will be, well, 2?

After reading through a couple of times, I believe that the idea is that pre-Kickstarter orders are mainly a way for people to avoid having to rush when the Kickstarter opens (and to get a bit of extra funding for the project), rather than actually shipping any earlier (since there's no step 1b for "make and ship preorder kits")... is that correct? I think either way it would be worth adding a clarification on that, as it's a bit unclear right now IMHO.

QuakeCon definitely seems like a good opportunity, especially if during the time up until then a few more people are able to start working with the device and post their successes - even if the killer app is Doom 3 (which for the QuakeCon crowd I'd imagine it will be!), having some other demos floating about would show that it's a viable platform for a whole range of projects.

[druidsbane]

It would be nice to be able to order the motion tracker or be directed with the initial run so that we can play around writing software for it etc... just my final 2 cents

[PalmerTech]

Sounds like a plan! I'll probably wait for the Kickstarter campaign to do my part making sure that it funds. I've got enough plates spinning right now that I don't mind waiting a bit

What's the expected lead time for getting the forum pre-order units sent out?

Lead time would be the same as the Kickstarter units, though at the very front of the line. Shipping in August is an aggressive timeline, but I think it can be done!

Sounds good, I'll probably go for one of the pre-Kickstarter kits if I can get one, but I did want to get a kit with all the bells and whistles (headtracker, wireless video, battery, and a copy of Doom). For those who get a pre-Kickstarter kit and get the other accessories separately from the Oculus website, would the total amount be no more than the full bundles that would be available on Kickstarter?

The total amount will be no more than the Kickstarter bundles, and probably a few dollars less.

[FingerFlinger]

Did you a have number of units in mind for the pre-Kickstarter run? I would like to get in on that as well, if possible.

[fraherd]

Hey palmer put me down for the pre-kickstarter, happy to help things get rolling. When you're set pm me the details and jump right on it. This money has burnt more than a hole on pocket.

[PalmerTech]

Yep, that sounds like a pretty sensible plan to me. One thing that struck me is that your post says "This will let me bypass the Kickstarter fees on the first couple units" - is that a typo, or are you thinking that the "limited number" of pre-kickstarter orders will be, well, 2?

After reading through a couple of times, I believe that the idea is that pre-Kickstarter orders are mainly a way for people to avoid having to rush when the Kickstarter opens (and to get a bit of extra funding for the project), rather than actually shipping any earlier (since there's no step 1b for "make and ship preorder kits")... is that correct? I think either way it would be worth adding a clarification on that, as it's a bit unclear right now IMHO.

It was just bad wording, there will be more than 2 units. And yes, you have the right idea. I will make that more clear when I put up the page tomorrow.

It would be nice to be able to order the motion tracker or be directed with the initial run so that we can play around writing software for it etc... just my final 2 cents

Thing is, the motion tracker is cheaper in large runs, which is why I don't want to commit to buying or shipping them at a certain price unless the Kickstarter is successful.

Did you a have number of units in mind for the pre-Kickstarter run? I would like to get in on that as well, if possible.

Probably less than 20 units, but it is flexible. The thing is, if worst came to worst, I could take the money and put it into the Kickstarter to make sure the goal is reached. Then we are back where we started fee-wise, but oh well.

[Alkapwn]

I'm also down for a pre-Kickstarter edition.

Just curious as to what kind of pricing you had in mind for the bare bones kits? Could we also get a sort of pricing list of the remaining components as well so that way we can figure out how much money we need in total.And will you want our options/cash for extras when we put in the pre-order, or will that all be taken care of through the website after the Kickstarter has been started/finished.

And I remember John Carmack saying something about possibly including a copy of Doom BFG in with the first back of orders. Does this still apply to the pre-Kickstarter order, or was he thinking for Kickstarter only.

Thanks for all the effort and timely replies Palmer. CANNOT wait to test this out and show it off to everyone I know who *thinks* they've had an immersive FPS experience.

[PalmerTech]

Just curious as to what kind of pricing you had in mind for the bare bones kits? Could we also get a sort of pricing list of the remaining components as well so that way we can figure out how much money we need in total.And will you want our options/cash for extras when we put in the pre-order, or will that all be taken care of through the website after the Kickstarter has been started/finished.

And I remember John Carmack saying something about possibly including a copy of Doom BFG in with the first back of orders. Does this still apply to the pre-Kickstarter order, or was he thinking for Kickstarter only.

To be honest, I am still figuring this out. John Carmack was planning on donating 100 copies of Doom 3, which is a really great gesture. The plan for those 100 units would be to include the game and motion tracker together for $99, so $500+99+$599 total for the HMD, tracker, and game. Tentative pricing for the wireless link and battery pack would be $200 and $90, respectively. If I cannot lock down a solid supplier with good lead times for those extras, I might just mention them in the Kickstarter, but only sell them on the website once I can ensure they will not be more expensive than expected.

To people who do the pre-pre order, though, I will make sure that they do not pay any more than the Kickstarter people do. The fees alone save $50, which would be enough to cover the cost of a copy of Doom 3 for all of them even if I cannot get wholesale pricing.

Things get really complex at this point, phew.

[Alkapwn]

To be honest, I am still figuring this out. John Carmack was planning on donating 100 copies of Doom 3, which is a really great gesture. The plan for those 100 units would be to include the game and motion tracker together for $99, so $500+99+$599 total for the HMD, tracker, and game. Tentative pricing for the wireless link and battery pack would be $200 and $90, respectively. If I cannot lock down a solid supplier with good lead times for those extras, I might just mention them in the Kickstarter, but only sell them on the website once I can ensure they will not be more expensive than expected.

To people who do the pre-pre order, though, I will make sure that they do not pay any more than the Kickstarter people do. The fees alone save $50, which would be enough to cover the cost of a copy of Doom 3 for all of them even if I cannot get wholesale pricing.

Things get really complex at this point, phew.

I'm literally like a kid on Christmas Eve right now! I simply cannot wait till tomorrow to jump on the pre-orders!

[nvman90]

I'll sign up for the pre-kickstarter Rift. I've been watching these forums long enough to know that Palmer has a serious project going here and would like to support it.

I'm guessing the signup will be full by the time I get to it, if it is I'll definitely be supporting the kickstarter.

How are you going to filter Pre-kickstarter requests? First come first serve?

[mikealex2432]

Hello PalmerTech and good luck with your endeavor.
Will non-US residents be allowed to buy pre-kickstarter units? Can you give an estimation on the shipping costs? How will international buyer pay (paypal, visa...)?

I think that what you're doing is amazing. I've been waiting for a HMD like that for year and, it really feels right that a guy as passionate about HMDs as you is in command!

Thanks!

P.S.: I know that my questions may be a bit premature, feel free to answer them in your own time of course.

[NRainville]

Count me in for a pre-kickstarter unit as well, what's the plan for accepting orders? You can accept paypal payments as donations, if you're clear in the language that funding the business is the main purpose and the gift is not guaranteed, you should have fewer problems with complaints about late shipping, chargebacks, etc. Given your stature on the forums and the level of demand, I don't think its unreasonable to ask the early adopters to go on trust.

[nesqi]

Count me in as well if shipping will be available internationally. My only worry is that to many will be signing up which will cause work overload and delays / problems.

Will there be a dedicated wiki or community site? I bet there are allot of people out there eager to contribute. I know I am anyway. http://www.reprap.org is a good example of an
open source hardware/software community. Will the Rift strive to be something alike?

Where should I send my money!?

[cms]

This is exciting. Count me in! I definitely want to snag a pre-kickstarter kit and start some playing/coding with it.

[mrMattB]

Will there be a dedicated wiki or community site? I bet there are allot of people out there eager to contribute. I know I am anyway. http://www.reprap.org is a good example of an
open source hardware/software community. Will the Rift strive to be something alike?

I agree - there is a ton of Q&A going on here now. (It's only going to increase with more exposure).

A Wiki sounds like a good idea at this point. (At least a rough version of some type.)

* Maintains project focus
* Questions about the kit/project will get addressed by forum members redirecting inquiries to Wiki.
* Most questions your going to get from the Kickstarter crowd would already be answered pre-launch.
* Allows you to focus on other milestones in the project while it's in-progress.

Example :

For good questions you can always post answers to questions here and then attach a link to the wiki siting your answer.

[PalmerTech]

How are you going to filter Pre-kickstarter requests? First come first serve?

A combination of me PM'ing a few key people here, and then first come first serve.

Will non-US residents be allowed to buy pre-kickstarter units? Can you give an estimation on the shipping costs? How will international buyer pay (paypal, visa...)?

If you are an international buyer, it is probably best to buy through Kickstarter. The shipping costs will not be too bad because I am shipping as a kit, definitely under $25 USD. You should be able to use Visa.

Count me in for a pre-kickstarter unit as well, what's the plan for accepting orders? You can accept paypal payments as donations, if you're clear in the language that funding the business is the main purpose and the gift is not guaranteed, you should have fewer problems with complaints about late shipping, chargebacks, etc. Given your stature on the forums and the level of demand, I don't think its unreasonable to ask the early adopters to go on trust.

I wanted to avoid doing that, but reading through the Paypal terms of service, they technically don't like any payments for goods that will take longer than 20 days to ship. Because of that, I might have to go with marking it as a donation/gift.

Count me in as well if shipping will be available internationally. My only worry is that to many will be signing up which will cause work overload and delays / problems.

Will there be a dedicated wiki or community site? I bet there are allot of people out there eager to contribute. I know I am anyway. http://www.reprap.org is a good example of an
open source hardware/software community. Will the Rift strive to be something alike?

Where should I send my money!?

I think that international buyers should probably use Kickstarter, if only because Paypal gets wary when tons of foreign money starts pouring into an account. I will be posting a link to a Paypal page here shortly.

I think MTBS3D works well as a community site, but a wiki is a great idea. Thanks for the RepRap link, looks like a good model to follow!

I agree - there is a ton of Q&A going on here now. (It's only going to increase with more exposure).

A Wiki sounds like a good idea at this point. (At least a rough version of some type).

For sure, it sounds like it would get use. Going to install a wiki on the site in the next day or so.

[mm0zct]

I was going to say I'd be in for the pre-kickstarter, but after your post I'll hold off for the kickstarter, due to being the wrong side of the pond (UK).

I wouldn't want to upset your paypal account and end up stalling the whole process!

(Will definitely be in for the HMD+tracker+Doom3 pack on kickstarter though, can't wait to get some of my own stuff working with it)

[Alkapwn]

A combination of me PM'ing a few key people here, and then first come first serve.

Crossing my fingers that I'm on the PM list just in case I get called into a random meeting and am not able to get in the first come first serve portion.

[rajveer]

I think that international buyers should probably use Kickstarter, if only because Paypal gets wary when tons of foreign money starts pouring into an account. I will be posting a link to a Paypal page here shortly.

I'm from the UK too so will wait for the Kickstarter to save you from Paypal's wrath (I REALLY hope the Kickstarter is a success, else I won't get one of these awesome HMDs!). Unless there is another way to pay for one of the pre-Kickstarter kits?

[Chriky]

UK here as well; I'd definitely prefer pre-Kickstarter option if it means I could get it earlier and start making some demos for it, if not I don't really mind. If you need the money, I'm happy to pay early, if not I'll just wait for the Kickstarter.

[PalmerTech]

Alrighty, here is the link to the pre-Kickstarter page, it should be safe from random people buried here in the thread.

Link: http://oculusvr.com/?page_id=55
Password: MTBS3D

I plan on taking about 20 pre-Kickstarter orders, so don't delay! You must call now!

[nesqi]

It looks like the webpage is down http://oculusvr.com/

400 Bad Request

[PalmerTech]

It is up for me, and a few of the friends I had check. Are you still having problems?

[nesqi]

Still 400 Bad request.

Have you updated the DNS records lately? Maybe it's just the wrong ip-address. What is the correct ip?

Edit:
It looks like some kind of DNS issue. It will probably update until tomorrow. Time for bed.

[PalmerTech]

Here is the IP, looking into the problem: 184.172.146.0

[druidsbane]

Here is the IP, looking into the problem: 184.172.146.0

Definitely ran into random DNS issues here as well, though I made it through eventually. Sounds like it was recently registered or there are conflicting hosts for it: "registered recently at namecheap.com" is the page I get on another connection.

[nesqi]

It's working just fine today.

[Nick3DvB]

UK here as well; I'd definitely prefer pre-Kickstarter option if it means I could get it earlier and start making some demos...

I'm in the same boat, I was hoping to start work on some parallax simulation demos, and playing around with some video ideas. I know a guy at the BBC studio here so will work on getting you some press for the Kickstarter, would be easier if I had something to show them though, maybe we could try and find an alternate payment system for international forum members?

[AdamHarley]

Don't forget, Palmer, that some of us aren't ready to buy a kit yet -- some of us just want to give you money, so that you can research and develop Version 2 of this thing. I hope there'll be an option on Kickstarter for that.

[zdam]

Hi Palmer,

I'm a lttle worried for you that this Kickstarter will end up being bigger than you really want. What are your expectations of the number of Rifts you will have to make? 100, 200? What happens if your Kickstarter goes ballistic and you end up with 1000, 2000, 5000? My gut feel is that this will distract from your greater plans that you now have with various parties (software/hardware) you are engaging with.

Is there a way in Kickstarter to limit it? - so that you only have to sell/produce a maximum amount?

Is it actually in your best interest to now cancel Kickstarter entirely, and perhaps just have a limited offer like you already have for folks who have visited this forum?

Best wishes,

Adam Webber